From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Wed Aug  2 14:41:30 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 07:41:30 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
Message-ID: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>

I've been working on getting all the languages documented, as well as adding
the new wikia on political subjects onto the main Portal:Politics page.  I
found this site:

http://leftbbs.wikia.com/

It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what caught my attention
was the navigation links along the top.

zh <http://leftbbs.wikia.com/index.php?title=%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5&variant=zh>
cn<http://leftbbs.wikia.com/index.php?title=%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5&variant=zh-cn>
tw<http://leftbbs.wikia.com/index.php?title=%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5&variant=zh-tw>
sg<http://leftbbs.wikia.com/index.php?title=%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5&variant=zh-sg>
hk<http://leftbbs.wikia.com/index.php?title=%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5&variant=zh-hk>
I'm not sure what they are referring to, but being able to create things
like this makes me wonder if we cuold do something similar with Campaigns,
where each link would go to a different language version of the page being
viewed.  There is of course the method used by Wikipedia, where the links
show up under the nav bar to the left of the content.

Opinions?  I know that the other language sites are just getting started,
but as usual I'm trying to buid a foundation for future growth.

Chad
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From jenniferforunity at gmail.com  Wed Aug  2 15:54:08 2006
From: jenniferforunity at gmail.com (Jennifer M.)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:54:08 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8666a1420608020854k5da3de7bl1cd522ed9b8d56c6@mail.gmail.com>

I notice that the links don't actually go to "cn", "tw" etc... they go to
"zh-cn" and "tw-cn"...  So it appears to me that their infrastructure treats
the "zh" version as privileged while the others are supposed to merely
reflect the main version.  Presumably we don't want to privilege the English
site...

...

I just edited the English site's mission statement page.  Check out the
bottom.

http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Mission_Statement

(I made three links: to the Spanish babelfish version of the English, to the
equivalent page on the actual Spanish site, and to the English babelfish
translation back from the Spanish site.)  Perhaps we could template this
sort of thing for all pages, with a "known equivalent version" and a "no
known equivalent" version?

I imagine that there's all sorts of improvements on this (editing the
babelfished versions is bad bad bad), but is this useful as a quick hack
until something better evolves?

-Jennifer

On 8/2/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've been working on getting all the languages documented, as well as
> adding the new wikia on political subjects onto the main Portal:Politics
> page.  I found this site:
>
> http://leftbbs.wikia.com/
>
> It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what caught my
> attention was the navigation links along the top.
>
> zh<http://leftbbs.wikia.com/index.php?title=%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5&variant=zh>
> cn<http://leftbbs.wikia.com/index.php?title=%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5&variant=zh-cn>
> tw<http://leftbbs.wikia.com/index.php?title=%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5&variant=zh-tw>
> sg<http://leftbbs.wikia.com/index.php?title=%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5&variant=zh-sg>
> hk<http://leftbbs.wikia.com/index.php?title=%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5&variant=zh-hk>
> I'm not sure what they are referring to, but being able to create things
> like this makes me wonder if we cuold do something similar with Campaigns,
> where each link would go to a different language version of the page being
> viewed.  There is of course the method used by Wikipedia, where the links
> show up under the nav bar to the left of the content.
>
> Opinions?  I know that the other language sites are just getting started,
> but as usual I'm trying to buid a foundation for future growth.
>
> Chad
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
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From beesley at gmail.com  Wed Aug  2 17:53:16 2006
From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 13:53:16 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>

> It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what caught my attention
> was the navigation links along the top.
>
> zh
> cn
> tw
> sg
> hk

These are automatic links that perform an automated translation into
different versions of Chinese. All simplified Chinese wikis have these
options by default.

Angela.


From y2keynes at gmail.com  Wed Aug  2 20:36:25 2006
From: y2keynes at gmail.com (YYK H)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 16:36:25 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>

I believe wikipedia default the Chinese version to which ever one was
used on first edit and then give option to convert to all simplified
or all traditional.  At the beginning I thought they are all default
to simplified (just because there are a lot of simplified pages and
Chinese wikipedia main page is defaulted to simplified chinese) but I
did find a few articles that are default to traditional.

I think those tabs are useful if a localized campaigns have multiple
official languages, however, those tabs may get pretty messy if the
page are on concepts that are more "global"... say if the mission
statement is translated into 50 languages then you may have problem
with too many tabs.

Who can add tabs there anyway?  admin?  which reminds me... I have
requested a new wikia for the the Hong Kong-localized version
(hk.campaigns.wikia.com) of Campaigns Wikia a week ago.  How long does
this process take usually?  Is the request queue getting really long
because of Wikimania?

Kenny

On 8/2/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what caught my attention
> > was the navigation links along the top.
> >
> > zh
> > cn
> > tw
> > sg
> > hk
>
> These are automatic links that perform an automated translation into
> different versions of Chinese. All simplified Chinese wikis have these
> options by default.
>
> Angela.
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>


From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Wed Aug  2 20:47:48 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 13:47:48 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0608021347l5fbc7703n22d9e007898a258@mail.gmail.com>

The details of the Chinese language diversity I didn't know, so this is good
information.

Would the Hong Kong site be in a different language than Chinese, or are you
asking for a regional specific version?  My understanding is that we're
trying not to create regional sites, only language based.  Hong Kong
elections are welcome in English on the main site, and if we need a Chinese
language Campaigns site then let's get one started.  But I'd rather not see
regions break off from the main site.  This needs to be a global movement,
and I'm almost as interested in Hong Kong elections as I am in Seattle
races, which is where I live.  We're all in this together.

Chad


On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I believe wikipedia default the Chinese version to which ever one was
> used on first edit and then give option to convert to all simplified
> or all traditional.  At the beginning I thought they are all default
> to simplified (just because there are a lot of simplified pages and
> Chinese wikipedia main page is defaulted to simplified chinese) but I
> did find a few articles that are default to traditional.
>
> I think those tabs are useful if a localized campaigns have multiple
> official languages, however, those tabs may get pretty messy if the
> page are on concepts that are more "global"... say if the mission
> statement is translated into 50 languages then you may have problem
> with too many tabs.
>
> Who can add tabs there anyway?  admin?  which reminds me... I have
> requested a new wikia for the the Hong Kong-localized version
> (hk.campaigns.wikia.com) of Campaigns Wikia a week ago.  How long does
> this process take usually?  Is the request queue getting really long
> because of Wikimania?
>
> Kenny
>
> On 8/2/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what caught my
> attention
> > > was the navigation links along the top.
> > >
> > > zh
> > > cn
> > > tw
> > > sg
> > > hk
> >
> > These are automatic links that perform an automated translation into
> > different versions of Chinese. All simplified Chinese wikis have these
> > options by default.
> >
> > Angela.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From lucychili at gmail.com  Wed Aug  2 23:45:38 2006
From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:15:38 +0930
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0608021347l5fbc7703n22d9e007898a258@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608021347l5fbc7703n22d9e007898a258@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c9d7bc330608021645i276e27b5l1d864cd387c00836@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/3/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The details of the Chinese language diversity I didn't know, so this is good
> information.
>
> Would the Hong Kong site be in a different language than Chinese, or are you
> asking for a regional specific version?  My understanding is that we're
> trying not to create regional sites, only language based.  Hong Kong
> elections are welcome in English on the main site,

aye theres the rub.

and if we need a Chinese
> language Campaigns site then let's get one started.  But I'd rather not see
> regions break off from the main site.  This needs to be a global movement,

you want a global movement with english as the main site?

> and I'm almost as interested in Hong Kong elections as I am in Seattle
> races, which is where I live.  We're all in this together.
>
>
> Chad


From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Wed Aug  2 23:52:26 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 16:52:26 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <c9d7bc330608021645i276e27b5l1d864cd387c00836@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608021347l5fbc7703n22d9e007898a258@mail.gmail.com>
	<c9d7bc330608021645i276e27b5l1d864cd387c00836@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0608021652r74f65bf1pbd80613a9877f2ca@mail.gmail.com>

www.wikia.com is the main site, just like www.wikipedia.org is their main
site.  Languages branch from there.

I want to see a global movement in all languages where we base our policy
decisions on what's best for everyone.  I call english the "main site"
because I can't read or write any of the other languages.  It's MY main
site, but the movement isn't language or location specific.  Let's hear from
everyone.

Chad


On 8/2/06, Janet Hawtin <lucychili at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 8/3/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The details of the Chinese language diversity I didn't know, so this is
> good
> > information.
> >
> > Would the Hong Kong site be in a different language than Chinese, or are
> you
> > asking for a regional specific version?  My understanding is that we're
> > trying not to create regional sites, only language based.  Hong Kong
> > elections are welcome in English on the main site,
>
> aye theres the rub.
>
> and if we need a Chinese
> > language Campaigns site then let's get one started.  But I'd rather not
> see
> > regions break off from the main site.  This needs to be a global
> movement,
>
> you want a global movement with english as the main site?
>
> > and I'm almost as interested in Hong Kong elections as I am in Seattle
> > races, which is where I live.  We're all in this together.
> >
> >
> > Chad
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From LITESCHOOL at aol.com  Thu Aug  3 01:12:38 2006
From: LITESCHOOL at aol.com (LITESCHOOL at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:12:38 EDT
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
Message-ID: <483.6898a78.3202a786@aol.com>

 
The elections in Hong Kong and China and for that matter in many countries  
around the world are not even close to that in the US. Each country has its own 
 game. Even in the US, Americans did not understand the electoral college, 
and  how the person with the most citizen votes might not be elected President.
 
In China and Hong Kong the Communist Party selects all candidates. Not all  
citizens vote in fact only a very few. The Communist Party makes up about 2 and 
 1/2 of the actual population of China.
 
The pictorial languages of China vary but the present government has made  
the written language fairly standard.
 
In a message dated 8/2/2006 7:52:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
chadlupkes at gmail.com writes:

On 8/2/06, Janet Hawtin <_lucychili at gmail.com_ (mailto:lucychili at gmail.com) > 
wrote:  
On  8/3/06, Chad Lupkes <_chadlupkes at gmail.com_ (mailto:chadlupkes at gmail.com) 
>  wrote:
> 
> The details of the Chinese language diversity I  didn't know, so this is 
good
> information.
>
> Would the  Hong Kong site be in a different language than Chinese, or are 
you
>  asking for a regional specific version?  My understanding is that  we're 
> trying not to create regional sites, only language  based.  Hong Kong
> elections are welcome in English on the  main site,

aye theres the rub.

and if we need a  Chinese
> language Campaigns site then let's get one  started.  But I'd rather not 
see 
> regions break off from  the main site.  This needs to be a global movement,

you  want a global movement with english as the main site?

> and I'm  almost as interested in Hong Kong elections as I am in Seattle 
>  races, which is where I live.  We're all in this  together.
>
>
> Chad



 
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From y2keynes at gmail.com  Thu Aug  3 01:26:28 2006
From: y2keynes at gmail.com (YYK H)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:26:28 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0608021347l5fbc7703n22d9e007898a258@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608021347l5fbc7703n22d9e007898a258@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48d435670608021826r2034193dle55b06ab9add787d@mail.gmail.com>

I am hoping the HK site will be in both Chinese and English since
these are the official/legal language of the city and people there
have diverse background (not necessary Chinese), however, I am not
certain about the logistic of it yet (both language on one page or
have the switching mechanism mentioned before).

This localization is not so much a "breaking off" but more of a
sub-category to help discussion and representation of issues.  It is
my understanding that the global guiding principle of Campaigns Wikia
is having intelligent and thoughtful discussion of political issues
(beyond election) but not necessary a global one-size fits all
consensuses of values (which is what I worry about if all local
politics are mix into one main site.)  Just to be clear, I am not
trying to "fend off" foreign contribution to local issues.  In fact,
on issues such as political reform in HK that is suppose to bring more
democracy... experiences from citizens of democratic society would be
very beneficial.  However, when these experiences are presented, they
must be presented in a way that understand or at least respect the
differences in culture and context and I believe a clearly distinctive
localization would help in that respect.

I think it's great that you have interest in politics in so many
places and I think this will actually help you find local information
much easier.  However, in order to engage the people at a personal
level, I do believe that most politics should have local distinction
because what's best for everyone in one place may not be practical in
another.  For instance, political reform in Iran are more on religion
vs secularism, which is a different type of reform than that in HK.
Similarly, there's also talk of political reform (Senate reform) in
Canada to make the system more responsive to the people and that is
also entirely different form the two mentioned before.  While I am
interested in politics in many places as well, I don't think many
people have the necessary time/energy to do so.  And I think it's up
to people like us to connect and raise the local discussion to a
higher (regional, international, global) level when it is necessary.
An general English page on the topic of "political reform" won't help
the local to make better policy decisions.

Kenny

On 8/2/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The details of the Chinese language diversity I didn't know, so this is good
> information.
>
> Would the Hong Kong site be in a different language than Chinese, or are you
> asking for a regional specific version?  My understanding is that we're
> trying not to create regional sites, only language based.  Hong Kong
> elections are welcome in English on the main site, and if we need a Chinese
> language Campaigns site then let's get one started.  But I'd rather not see
> regions break off from the main site.  This needs to be a global movement,
> and I'm almost as interested in Hong Kong elections as I am in Seattle
> races, which is where I live.  We're all in this together.
>
>
> Chad
>
>
>
> On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I believe wikipedia default the Chinese version to which ever one was
> > used on first edit and then give option to convert to all simplified
> > or all traditional.  At the beginning I thought they are all default
> > to simplified (just because there are a lot of simplified pages and
> > Chinese wikipedia main page is defaulted to simplified chinese) but I
> > did find a few articles that are default to traditional.
> >
> > I think those tabs are useful if a localized campaigns have multiple
> > official languages, however, those tabs may get pretty messy if the
> > page are on concepts that are more "global"... say if the mission
> > statement is translated into 50 languages then you may have problem
> > with too many tabs.
> >
> > Who can add tabs there anyway?  admin?  which reminds me... I have
> > requested a new wikia for the the Hong Kong-localized version
> > (hk.campaigns.wikia.com) of Campaigns Wikia a week ago.  How long does
> > this process take usually?  Is the request queue getting really long
> > because of Wikimania?
> >
> > Kenny
> >
> > On 8/2/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what caught my
> attention
> > > > was the navigation links along the top.
> > > >
> > > > zh
> > > > cn
> > > > tw
> > > > sg
> > > > hk
> > >
> > > These are automatic links that perform an automated translation into
> > > different versions of Chinese. All simplified Chinese wikis have these
> > > options by default.
> > >
> > > Angela.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>


From y2keynes at gmail.com  Thu Aug  3 01:43:33 2006
From: y2keynes at gmail.com (YYK H)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:43:33 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <483.6898a78.3202a786@aol.com>
References: <483.6898a78.3202a786@aol.com>
Message-ID: <48d435670608021843w4735518euf9458245b0c907d1@mail.gmail.com>

> In China and Hong Kong the Communist Party selects all candidates. Not all
> citizens vote in fact only a very few. The Communist Party makes up about 2
> and 1/2 of the actual population of China.
While the general characterization is right, I just want to clarify a
few things.  The political system quite different between mainland
China and Hong Kong because HK was an ex-UK-colony.  Communist Party
does not exist in HK... but the CCP do have full control over the
political system in HK.  Also, the CCP has became much smarter in the
sense that they don't control purely by force or oppression but
through various methods such as economic incentive through policy
change.

> The pictorial languages of China vary but the present government has made
> the written language fairly standard.
It's standard for Mainland China but hardly standard for Taiwan or
most Chinese outside of mainland.  For further detail on the whole
language deal, please check out "Debate on traditional and simplified
Chinese characters" here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Chinese_character

Kenny
>
> In a message dated 8/2/2006 7:52:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> chadlupkes at gmail.com writes:
> On 8/2/06, Janet Hawtin <lucychili at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 8/3/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > The details of the Chinese language diversity I didn't know, so this is
> good
> > > information.
> > >
> > > Would the Hong Kong site be in a different language than Chinese, or are
> you
> > > asking for a regional specific version?  My understanding is that we're
> > > trying not to create regional sites, only language based.  Hong Kong
> > > elections are welcome in English on the main site,
> >
> > aye theres the rub.
> >
> > and if we need a Chinese
> > > language Campaigns site then let's get one started.  But I'd rather not
> see
> > > regions break off from the main site.  This needs to be a global
> movement,
> >
> > you want a global movement with english as the main site?
> >
> > > and I'm almost as interested in Hong Kong elections as I am in Seattle
> > > races, which is where I live.  We're all in this together.
> > >
> > >
> > > Chad
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>


From jenniferforunity at gmail.com  Thu Aug  3 01:52:14 2006
From: jenniferforunity at gmail.com (Jennifer M.)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:52:14 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <48d435670608021826r2034193dle55b06ab9add787d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608021347l5fbc7703n22d9e007898a258@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021826r2034193dle55b06ab9add787d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8666a1420608021852s321c4090uc29f5e90a00d9fc@mail.gmail.com>

In daily editing on Campaigns Wikia I've repreatedly felt as though I was
limited by the fact that we weren't simply a "new kind of content" within
wikipedia.  I see the values of wikis growing as more and more people with
diverse interests and knowledge fill in their own pieces of the breadth of
everything worth writing about... and breaking into specific wikis prevents
that.

100 wikis with 5 users each is, to my mind, 100 small wikis of very little
value.  Get the same 500 people editing content within a common "name space"
and something much more interesting and valuable occurs.

It's for reasons like this that I'd prefer to have the "sub wikis" subsume
as much content as possible.  Better to have everyone on the planet who can
read and write Traditional (or Simplified) Chinese using the "Traditional
Chinese Political Wiki" (or the Simplified one).  Breaking things out
country by country, region by region, or city by city when the countries,
regions, or cities have a common written language will likely lead to a
large number of ultimately less valuable wikis.

Personally, I don't know if readers and writers of Traditional or Simplified
written Chinese can read and write in each other's systems.  I've heard that
Traditional trained people can generally get the gist of Simplified, but
that the reverse isn't always true.  And I knew a woman from Singapore that
once explained to me some of the unusual innovations Singaporeans made with
their nominally Traditional writing system...

What I'm trying to say is that, in principle, I much prefer the idea of a
few big wikis rather than many small wikis and deviations from this
principle seem to me as though they should be motivated by issues of
intelligibility, rather than by issues of "political affiliation with some
geographic place".

-Jennifer

On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am hoping the HK site will be in both Chinese and English since
> these are the official/legal language of the city and people there
> have diverse background (not necessary Chinese), however, I am not
> certain about the logistic of it yet (both language on one page or
> have the switching mechanism mentioned before).
>
> This localization is not so much a "breaking off" but more of a
> sub-category to help discussion and representation of issues.  It is
> my understanding that the global guiding principle of Campaigns Wikia
> is having intelligent and thoughtful discussion of political issues
> (beyond election) but not necessary a global one-size fits all
> consensuses of values (which is what I worry about if all local
> politics are mix into one main site.)  Just to be clear, I am not
> trying to "fend off" foreign contribution to local issues.  In fact,
> on issues such as political reform in HK that is suppose to bring more
> democracy... experiences from citizens of democratic society would be
> very beneficial.  However, when these experiences are presented, they
> must be presented in a way that understand or at least respect the
> differences in culture and context and I believe a clearly distinctive
> localization would help in that respect.
>
> I think it's great that you have interest in politics in so many
> places and I think this will actually help you find local information
> much easier.  However, in order to engage the people at a personal
> level, I do believe that most politics should have local distinction
> because what's best for everyone in one place may not be practical in
> another.  For instance, political reform in Iran are more on religion
> vs secularism, which is a different type of reform than that in HK.
> Similarly, there's also talk of political reform (Senate reform) in
> Canada to make the system more responsive to the people and that is
> also entirely different form the two mentioned before.  While I am
> interested in politics in many places as well, I don't think many
> people have the necessary time/energy to do so.  And I think it's up
> to people like us to connect and raise the local discussion to a
> higher (regional, international, global) level when it is necessary.
> An general English page on the topic of "political reform" won't help
> the local to make better policy decisions.
>
> Kenny
>
> On 8/2/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The details of the Chinese language diversity I didn't know, so this is
> good
> > information.
> >
> > Would the Hong Kong site be in a different language than Chinese, or are
> you
> > asking for a regional specific version?  My understanding is that we're
> > trying not to create regional sites, only language based.  Hong Kong
> > elections are welcome in English on the main site, and if we need a
> Chinese
> > language Campaigns site then let's get one started.  But I'd rather not
> see
> > regions break off from the main site.  This needs to be a global
> movement,
> > and I'm almost as interested in Hong Kong elections as I am in Seattle
> > races, which is where I live.  We're all in this together.
> >
> >
> > Chad
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I believe wikipedia default the Chinese version to which ever one was
> > > used on first edit and then give option to convert to all simplified
> > > or all traditional.  At the beginning I thought they are all default
> > > to simplified (just because there are a lot of simplified pages and
> > > Chinese wikipedia main page is defaulted to simplified chinese) but I
> > > did find a few articles that are default to traditional.
> > >
> > > I think those tabs are useful if a localized campaigns have multiple
> > > official languages, however, those tabs may get pretty messy if the
> > > page are on concepts that are more "global"... say if the mission
> > > statement is translated into 50 languages then you may have problem
> > > with too many tabs.
> > >
> > > Who can add tabs there anyway?  admin?  which reminds me... I have
> > > requested a new wikia for the the Hong Kong-localized version
> > > (hk.campaigns.wikia.com) of Campaigns Wikia a week ago.  How long does
> > > this process take usually?  Is the request queue getting really long
> > > because of Wikimania?
> > >
> > > Kenny
> > >
> > > On 8/2/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what caught my
> > attention
> > > > > was the navigation links along the top.
> > > > >
> > > > > zh
> > > > > cn
> > > > > tw
> > > > > sg
> > > > > hk
> > > >
> > > > These are automatic links that perform an automated translation into
> > > > different versions of Chinese. All simplified Chinese wikis have
> these
> > > > options by default.
> > > >
> > > > Angela.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From y2keynes at gmail.com  Thu Aug  3 02:55:07 2006
From: y2keynes at gmail.com (YYK H)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 22:55:07 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <8666a1420608021852s321c4090uc29f5e90a00d9fc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608021347l5fbc7703n22d9e007898a258@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021826r2034193dle55b06ab9add787d@mail.gmail.com>
	<8666a1420608021852s321c4090uc29f5e90a00d9fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48d435670608021955u1bcaefccs1f5a6ae4a1a879bb@mail.gmail.com>

I am not sure if i understand your points here.  Geographic political
affiliation is _not_ incompatible with intelligent discussion.
Geographic affiliation does not equal local only discussion.
Recognizing regional differences in political issues does not reduce
the amount of participation or discussing issue in intelligible way.
In fact, it will do exactly the opposite.  Certainly there are "name
space" like terrorism, global warming, etc. that applies globally and
therefore should have global discussion.  But one must recognize that
there are many issues that are directly associated with geography and
it is not up to us to decides differently.

For example, immigration policy is certainly different between US and
Canada.  Should there be only one name space for immigration policy?
If so, does that suggest there will be a single unified policy that is
practical and adaptable for both country?  I mean... US is neighbour
with Mexico and we are neighbour with Arctic.  If not, how will having
a single name space produce more intelligent discussion?

Kenny
On 8/2/06, Jennifer M. <jenniferforunity at gmail.com> wrote:
> In daily editing on Campaigns Wikia I've repreatedly felt as though I was
> limited by the fact that we weren't simply a "new kind of content" within
> wikipedia.  I see the values of wikis growing as more and more people with
> diverse interests and knowledge fill in their own pieces of the breadth of
> everything worth writing about... and breaking into specific wikis prevents
> that.
>
> 100 wikis with 5 users each is, to my mind, 100 small wikis of very little
> value.  Get the same 500 people editing content within a common "name space"
> and something much more interesting and valuable occurs.
>
> It's for reasons like this that I'd prefer to have the "sub wikis" subsume
> as much content as possible.  Better to have everyone on the planet who can
> read and write Traditional (or Simplified) Chinese using the "Traditional
> Chinese Political Wiki" (or the Simplified one).  Breaking things out
> country by country, region by region, or city by city when the countries,
> regions, or cities have a common written language will likely lead to a
> large number of ultimately less valuable wikis.
>
> Personally, I don't know if readers and writers of Traditional or Simplified
> written Chinese can read and write in each other's systems.  I've heard that
> Traditional trained people can generally get the gist of Simplified, but
> that the reverse isn't always true.  And I knew a woman from Singapore that
> once explained to me some of the unusual innovations Singaporeans made with
> their nominally Traditional writing system...
>
> What I'm trying to say is that, in principle, I much prefer the idea of a
> few big wikis rather than many small wikis and deviations from this
> principle seem to me as though they should be motivated by issues of
> intelligibility, rather than by issues of "political affiliation with some
> geographic place".
>
> -Jennifer
>
>
> On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am hoping the HK site will be in both Chinese and English since
> > these are the official/legal language of the city and people there
> > have diverse background (not necessary Chinese), however, I am not
> > certain about the logistic of it yet (both language on one page or
> > have the switching mechanism mentioned before).
> >
> > This localization is not so much a "breaking off" but more of a
> > sub-category to help discussion and representation of issues.  It is
> > my understanding that the global guiding principle of Campaigns Wikia
> > is having intelligent and thoughtful discussion of political issues
> > (beyond election) but not necessary a global one-size fits all
> > consensuses of values (which is what I worry about if all local
> > politics are mix into one main site.)  Just to be clear, I am not
> > trying to "fend off" foreign contribution to local issues.  In fact,
> > on issues such as political reform in HK that is suppose to bring more
> > democracy... experiences from citizens of democratic society would be
> > very beneficial.  However, when these experiences are presented, they
> > must be presented in a way that understand or at least respect the
> > differences in culture and context and I believe a clearly distinctive
> > localization would help in that respect.
> >
> > I think it's great that you have interest in politics in so many
> > places and I think this will actually help you find local information
> > much easier.  However, in order to engage the people at a personal
> > level, I do believe that most politics should have local distinction
> > because what's best for everyone in one place may not be practical in
> > another.  For instance, political reform in Iran are more on religion
> > vs secularism, which is a different type of reform than that in HK.
> > Similarly, there's also talk of political reform (Senate reform) in
> > Canada to make the system more responsive to the people and that is
> > also entirely different form the two mentioned before.  While I am
> > interested in politics in many places as well, I don't think many
> > people have the necessary time/energy to do so.  And I think it's up
> > to people like us to connect and raise the local discussion to a
> > higher (regional, international, global) level when it is necessary.
> > An general English page on the topic of "political reform" won't help
> > the local to make better policy decisions.
> >
> > Kenny
> >
> > On 8/2/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com > wrote:
> > >
> > > The details of the Chinese language diversity I didn't know, so this is
> good
> > > information.
> > >
> > > Would the Hong Kong site be in a different language than Chinese, or are
> you
> > > asking for a regional specific version?  My understanding is that we're
> > > trying not to create regional sites, only language based.  Hong Kong
> > > elections are welcome in English on the main site, and if we need a
> Chinese
> > > language Campaigns site then let's get one started.  But I'd rather not
> see
> > > regions break off from the main site.  This needs to be a global
> movement,
> > > and I'm almost as interested in Hong Kong elections as I am in Seattle
> > > races, which is where I live.  We're all in this together.
> > >
> > >
> > > Chad
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I believe wikipedia default the Chinese version to which ever one was
> > > > used on first edit and then give option to convert to all simplified
> > > > or all traditional.  At the beginning I thought they are all default
> > > > to simplified (just because there are a lot of simplified pages and
> > > > Chinese wikipedia main page is defaulted to simplified chinese) but I
> > > > did find a few articles that are default to traditional.
> > > >
> > > > I think those tabs are useful if a localized campaigns have multiple
> > > > official languages, however, those tabs may get pretty messy if the
> > > > page are on concepts that are more "global"... say if the mission
> > > > statement is translated into 50 languages then you may have problem
> > > > with too many tabs.
> > > >
> > > > Who can add tabs there anyway?  admin?  which reminds me... I have
> > > > requested a new wikia for the the Hong Kong-localized version
> > > > (hk.campaigns.wikia.com) of Campaigns Wikia a week ago.  How long does
> > > > this process take usually?  Is the request queue getting really long
> > > > because of Wikimania?
> > > >
> > > > Kenny
> > > >
> > > > On 8/2/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what caught my
> > > attention
> > > > > > was the navigation links along the top.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > zh
> > > > > > cn
> > > > > > tw
> > > > > > sg
> > > > > > hk
> > > > >
> > > > > These are automatic links that perform an automated translation into
> > > > > different versions of Chinese. All simplified Chinese wikis have
> these
> > > > > options by default.
> > > > >
> > > > > Angela.
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>


From jenniferforunity at gmail.com  Thu Aug  3 03:09:18 2006
From: jenniferforunity at gmail.com (Jennifer M.)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 20:09:18 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <48d435670608021955u1bcaefccs1f5a6ae4a1a879bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608021347l5fbc7703n22d9e007898a258@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021826r2034193dle55b06ab9add787d@mail.gmail.com>
	<8666a1420608021852s321c4090uc29f5e90a00d9fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021955u1bcaefccs1f5a6ae4a1a879bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8666a1420608022009x19c6775do5e00f9d59a80a783@mail.gmail.com>

It seems to me that there will be recurring themes in any discussion of
immigration policy: the desire to preserve the the native culture in the
face of immigration by people with a different culture, the increase of a
supply of labor with the attendant economic impacts (or the net outflow that
some nations are experiencing with another set of impacts).  Those processes
are probably universal and would benefit from a global namespace...

In the meantime the local namespace of a single city's worth of data will
(this has been my experience editing campaigns wikia making me wish
"politics" was just a new kind of content in wikipedia) *probably* reference
many facts and concepts with broad relevance and applicability.  Do you want
a wiki where 80% of the links are to other wikis with broader scope?  If it
were technically feasible I'd argue in favor of *only one* wiki with
automatic translation progating edits back and forth between language
versions (or to a central artificial language representation encoding all
the info necessary for all the different natural language versions of the
text).

Perhaps this is simply a difference in values?  Universal verus particular?
If you simply object to lots of people using and editing the Hong Kong wiki
because you want something local with a restricted "bais" or "flavor" I'd be
cool with that... I've been working for that sort of thing within Campaigns
Wikia as a promotion of "inherently biased" articles that should not be
edited by people without certain affiliations.  For an example:
http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/The_Politics_of_Slashdot

-Jennifer

On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am not sure if i understand your points here.  Geographic political
> affiliation is _not_ incompatible with intelligent discussion.
> Geographic affiliation does not equal local only discussion.
> Recognizing regional differences in political issues does not reduce
> the amount of participation or discussing issue in intelligible way.
> In fact, it will do exactly the opposite.  Certainly there are "name
> space" like terrorism, global warming, etc. that applies globally and
> therefore should have global discussion.  But one must recognize that
> there are many issues that are directly associated with geography and
> it is not up to us to decides differently.
>
> For example, immigration policy is certainly different between US and
> Canada.  Should there be only one name space for immigration policy?
> If so, does that suggest there will be a single unified policy that is
> practical and adaptable for both country?  I mean... US is neighbour
> with Mexico and we are neighbour with Arctic.  If not, how will having
> a single name space produce more intelligent discussion?
>
> Kenny
> On 8/2/06, Jennifer M. <jenniferforunity at gmail.com> wrote:
> > In daily editing on Campaigns Wikia I've repreatedly felt as though I
> was
> > limited by the fact that we weren't simply a "new kind of content"
> within
> > wikipedia.  I see the values of wikis growing as more and more people
> with
> > diverse interests and knowledge fill in their own pieces of the breadth
> of
> > everything worth writing about... and breaking into specific wikis
> prevents
> > that.
> >
> > 100 wikis with 5 users each is, to my mind, 100 small wikis of very
> little
> > value.  Get the same 500 people editing content within a common "name
> space"
> > and something much more interesting and valuable occurs.
> >
> > It's for reasons like this that I'd prefer to have the "sub wikis"
> subsume
> > as much content as possible.  Better to have everyone on the planet who
> can
> > read and write Traditional (or Simplified) Chinese using the
> "Traditional
> > Chinese Political Wiki" (or the Simplified one).  Breaking things out
> > country by country, region by region, or city by city when the
> countries,
> > regions, or cities have a common written language will likely lead to a
> > large number of ultimately less valuable wikis.
> >
> > Personally, I don't know if readers and writers of Traditional or
> Simplified
> > written Chinese can read and write in each other's systems.  I've heard
> that
> > Traditional trained people can generally get the gist of Simplified, but
> > that the reverse isn't always true.  And I knew a woman from Singapore
> that
> > once explained to me some of the unusual innovations Singaporeans made
> with
> > their nominally Traditional writing system...
> >
> > What I'm trying to say is that, in principle, I much prefer the idea of
> a
> > few big wikis rather than many small wikis and deviations from this
> > principle seem to me as though they should be motivated by issues of
> > intelligibility, rather than by issues of "political affiliation with
> some
> > geographic place".
> >
> > -Jennifer
> >
> >
> > On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I am hoping the HK site will be in both Chinese and English since
> > > these are the official/legal language of the city and people there
> > > have diverse background (not necessary Chinese), however, I am not
> > > certain about the logistic of it yet (both language on one page or
> > > have the switching mechanism mentioned before).
> > >
> > > This localization is not so much a "breaking off" but more of a
> > > sub-category to help discussion and representation of issues.  It is
> > > my understanding that the global guiding principle of Campaigns Wikia
> > > is having intelligent and thoughtful discussion of political issues
> > > (beyond election) but not necessary a global one-size fits all
> > > consensuses of values (which is what I worry about if all local
> > > politics are mix into one main site.)  Just to be clear, I am not
> > > trying to "fend off" foreign contribution to local issues.  In fact,
> > > on issues such as political reform in HK that is suppose to bring more
> > > democracy... experiences from citizens of democratic society would be
> > > very beneficial.  However, when these experiences are presented, they
> > > must be presented in a way that understand or at least respect the
> > > differences in culture and context and I believe a clearly distinctive
> > > localization would help in that respect.
> > >
> > > I think it's great that you have interest in politics in so many
> > > places and I think this will actually help you find local information
> > > much easier.  However, in order to engage the people at a personal
> > > level, I do believe that most politics should have local distinction
> > > because what's best for everyone in one place may not be practical in
> > > another.  For instance, political reform in Iran are more on religion
> > > vs secularism, which is a different type of reform than that in HK.
> > > Similarly, there's also talk of political reform (Senate reform) in
> > > Canada to make the system more responsive to the people and that is
> > > also entirely different form the two mentioned before.  While I am
> > > interested in politics in many places as well, I don't think many
> > > people have the necessary time/energy to do so.  And I think it's up
> > > to people like us to connect and raise the local discussion to a
> > > higher (regional, international, global) level when it is necessary.
> > > An general English page on the topic of "political reform" won't help
> > > the local to make better policy decisions.
> > >
> > > Kenny
> > >
> > > On 8/2/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The details of the Chinese language diversity I didn't know, so this
> is
> > good
> > > > information.
> > > >
> > > > Would the Hong Kong site be in a different language than Chinese, or
> are
> > you
> > > > asking for a regional specific version?  My understanding is that
> we're
> > > > trying not to create regional sites, only language based.  Hong Kong
> > > > elections are welcome in English on the main site, and if we need a
> > Chinese
> > > > language Campaigns site then let's get one started.  But I'd rather
> not
> > see
> > > > regions break off from the main site.  This needs to be a global
> > movement,
> > > > and I'm almost as interested in Hong Kong elections as I am in
> Seattle
> > > > races, which is where I live.  We're all in this together.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chad
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I believe wikipedia default the Chinese version to which ever one
> was
> > > > > used on first edit and then give option to convert to all
> simplified
> > > > > or all traditional.  At the beginning I thought they are all
> default
> > > > > to simplified (just because there are a lot of simplified pages
> and
> > > > > Chinese wikipedia main page is defaulted to simplified chinese)
> but I
> > > > > did find a few articles that are default to traditional.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think those tabs are useful if a localized campaigns have
> multiple
> > > > > official languages, however, those tabs may get pretty messy if
> the
> > > > > page are on concepts that are more "global"... say if the mission
> > > > > statement is translated into 50 languages then you may have
> problem
> > > > > with too many tabs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Who can add tabs there anyway?  admin?  which reminds me... I have
> > > > > requested a new wikia for the the Hong Kong-localized version
> > > > > (hk.campaigns.wikia.com) of Campaigns Wikia a week ago.  How long
> does
> > > > > this process take usually?  Is the request queue getting really
> long
> > > > > because of Wikimania?
> > > > >
> > > > > Kenny
> > > > >
> > > > > On 8/2/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what
> caught my
> > > > attention
> > > > > > > was the navigation links along the top.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > zh
> > > > > > > cn
> > > > > > > tw
> > > > > > > sg
> > > > > > > hk
> > > > > >
> > > > > > These are automatic links that perform an automated translation
> into
> > > > > > different versions of Chinese. All simplified Chinese wikis have
> > these
> > > > > > options by default.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Angela.
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From bblackham at san.rr.com  Thu Aug  3 03:15:23 2006
From: bblackham at san.rr.com (Becky Blackham)
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 20:15:23 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
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From bblackham at san.rr.com  Thu Aug  3 03:41:05 2006
From: bblackham at san.rr.com (Becky Blackham)
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 20:41:05 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <8666a1420608022009x19c6775do5e00f9d59a80a783@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
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From y2keynes at gmail.com  Thu Aug  3 04:30:04 2006
From: y2keynes at gmail.com (YYK H)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 00:30:04 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <8666a1420608022009x19c6775do5e00f9d59a80a783@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608021347l5fbc7703n22d9e007898a258@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021826r2034193dle55b06ab9add787d@mail.gmail.com>
	<8666a1420608021852s321c4090uc29f5e90a00d9fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021955u1bcaefccs1f5a6ae4a1a879bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<8666a1420608022009x19c6775do5e00f9d59a80a783@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48d435670608022130j7995c439s996eeb8f6aaf2d63@mail.gmail.com>

> It seems to me that there will be recurring themes in any discussion of
> immigration policy: the desire to preserve the the native culture in the
> face of immigration by people with a different culture, the increase of a
> supply of labor with the attendant economic impacts (or the net outflow that
> some nations are experiencing with another set of impacts).  Those processes
> are probably universal and would benefit from a global namespace...
I agree that these overarching concepts are quite universal, but does
that mean both US and Canada should adopt a single policy given the
differences in context?  (let say multiculturalism vs. melting pot)

> In the meantime the local namespace of a single city's worth of data will
> (this has been my experience editing campaigns wikia making me wish
> "politics" was just a new kind of content in wikipedia) *probably* reference
> many facts and concepts with broad relevance and applicability.  Do you want
> a wiki where 80% of the links are to other wikis with broader scope?  If it
> were technically feasible I'd argue in favor of *only one* wiki with
> automatic translation progating edits back and forth between language
> versions (or to a central artificial language representation encoding all
> the info necessary for all the different natural language versions of the
> text).
Um... may be I have misunderstood the concept of campaigns wikia... To
my understanding this wikia is a platform of idea exchange on politics
and intelligent discussion... which unavoidably would be fill with POV
(I mean... isn't that what politic is?)  To make these POV thoughtful
and relevant, they should be backup by facts...so to me, pretty much
100% of the links would be external leaving only POVs from all sides
on the page.  I don't' know... this is how I see intelligent
discussion and exchange can occurs... I mean, if we want facts and
concept, wikipedia in itself is already an excellent source, so may be
I am totally off.

> Perhaps this is simply a difference in values?  Universal verus particular?
> If you simply object to lots of people using and editing the Hong Kong wiki
> because you want something local with a restricted "bais" or "flavor" I'd be
> cool with that... I've been working for that sort of thing within Campaigns
> Wikia as a promotion of "inherently biased" articles that should not be
> edited by people without certain affiliations.  For an example:
> http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/The_Politics_of_Slashdot
If you read my previous responds, then you should know that I am _not_
objecting to "other" people editing HK wiki (on the contrary, I
thought it would be excellent if there are outside contribution and I
used HK political reform as an example...)  I am trying to ensure that
when others are making contribution, they are aware of the regional
differences.  For example, the HK dollar has a hard link to US dollar
to ensure monetary stability.  So let say if the question "Should HK
currency continue to be linked to the US dollar" arise in HK society,
I want to make sure that when people contribute their international
POV, they are at least aware of the fact that HK is not a country like
the US for example... and what happened to other countries with open
exchange currency system in the recent past... before asserting a
general statement of "market economy."

Kenny
>
> -Jennifer
>
> On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am not sure if i understand your points here.  Geographic political
> > affiliation is _not_ incompatible with intelligent discussion.
> > Geographic affiliation does not equal local only discussion.
> > Recognizing regional differences in political issues does not reduce
> > the amount of participation or discussing issue in intelligible way.
> > In fact, it will do exactly the opposite.  Certainly there are "name
> > space" like terrorism, global warming, etc. that applies globally and
> > therefore should have global discussion.  But one must recognize that
> > there are many issues that are directly associated with geography and
> > it is not up to us to decides differently.
> >
> > For example, immigration policy is certainly different between US and
> > Canada.  Should there be only one name space for immigration policy?
> > If so, does that suggest there will be a single unified policy that is
> > practical and adaptable for both country?  I mean... US is neighbour
> > with Mexico and we are neighbour with Arctic.  If not, how will having
> > a single name space produce more intelligent discussion?
> >
> > Kenny
> > On 8/2/06, Jennifer M. <jenniferforunity at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > In daily editing on Campaigns Wikia I've repreatedly felt as though I
> was
> > > limited by the fact that we weren't simply a "new kind of content"
> within
> > > wikipedia.  I see the values of wikis growing as more and more people
> with
> > > diverse interests and knowledge fill in their own pieces of the breadth
> of
> > > everything worth writing about... and breaking into specific wikis
> prevents
> > > that.
> > >
> > > 100 wikis with 5 users each is, to my mind, 100 small wikis of very
> little
> > > value.  Get the same 500 people editing content within a common "name
> space"
> > > and something much more interesting and valuable occurs.
> > >
> > > It's for reasons like this that I'd prefer to have the "sub wikis"
> subsume
> > > as much content as possible.  Better to have everyone on the planet who
> can
> > > read and write Traditional (or Simplified) Chinese using the
> "Traditional
> > > Chinese Political Wiki" (or the Simplified one).  Breaking things out
> > > country by country, region by region, or city by city when the
> countries,
> > > regions, or cities have a common written language will likely lead to a
> > > large number of ultimately less valuable wikis.
> > >
> > > Personally, I don't know if readers and writers of Traditional or
> Simplified
> > > written Chinese can read and write in each other's systems.  I've heard
> that
> > > Traditional trained people can generally get the gist of Simplified, but
> > > that the reverse isn't always true.  And I knew a woman from Singapore
> that
> > > once explained to me some of the unusual innovations Singaporeans made
> with
> > > their nominally Traditional writing system...
> > >
> > > What I'm trying to say is that, in principle, I much prefer the idea of
> a
> > > few big wikis rather than many small wikis and deviations from this
> > > principle seem to me as though they should be motivated by issues of
> > > intelligibility, rather than by issues of "political affiliation with
> some
> > > geographic place".
> > >
> > > -Jennifer
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I am hoping the HK site will be in both Chinese and English since
> > > > these are the official/legal language of the city and people there
> > > > have diverse background (not necessary Chinese), however, I am not
> > > > certain about the logistic of it yet (both language on one page or
> > > > have the switching mechanism mentioned before).
> > > >
> > > > This localization is not so much a "breaking off" but more of a
> > > > sub-category to help discussion and representation of issues.  It is
> > > > my understanding that the global guiding principle of Campaigns Wikia
> > > > is having intelligent and thoughtful discussion of political issues
> > > > (beyond election) but not necessary a global one-size fits all
> > > > consensuses of values (which is what I worry about if all local
> > > > politics are mix into one main site.)  Just to be clear, I am not
> > > > trying to "fend off" foreign contribution to local issues.  In fact,
> > > > on issues such as political reform in HK that is suppose to bring more
> > > > democracy... experiences from citizens of democratic society would be
> > > > very beneficial.  However, when these experiences are presented, they
> > > > must be presented in a way that understand or at least respect the
> > > > differences in culture and context and I believe a clearly distinctive
> > > > localization would help in that respect.
> > > >
> > > > I think it's great that you have interest in politics in so many
> > > > places and I think this will actually help you find local information
> > > > much easier.  However, in order to engage the people at a personal
> > > > level, I do believe that most politics should have local distinction
> > > > because what's best for everyone in one place may not be practical in
> > > > another.  For instance, political reform in Iran are more on religion
> > > > vs secularism, which is a different type of reform than that in HK.
> > > > Similarly, there's also talk of political reform (Senate reform) in
> > > > Canada to make the system more responsive to the people and that is
> > > > also entirely different form the two mentioned before.  While I am
> > > > interested in politics in many places as well, I don't think many
> > > > people have the necessary time/energy to do so.  And I think it's up
> > > > to people like us to connect and raise the local discussion to a
> > > > higher (regional, international, global) level when it is necessary.
> > > > An general English page on the topic of "political reform" won't help
> > > > the local to make better policy decisions.
> > > >
> > > > Kenny
> > > >
> > > > On 8/2/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The details of the Chinese language diversity I didn't know, so this
> is
> > > good
> > > > > information.
> > > > >
> > > > > Would the Hong Kong site be in a different language than Chinese, or
> are
> > > you
> > > > > asking for a regional specific version?  My understanding is that
> we're
> > > > > trying not to create regional sites, only language based.  Hong Kong
> > > > > elections are welcome in English on the main site, and if we need a
> > > Chinese
> > > > > language Campaigns site then let's get one started.  But I'd rather
> not
> > > see
> > > > > regions break off from the main site.  This needs to be a global
> > > movement,
> > > > > and I'm almost as interested in Hong Kong elections as I am in
> Seattle
> > > > > races, which is where I live.  We're all in this together.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Chad
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > I believe wikipedia default the Chinese version to which ever one
> was
> > > > > > used on first edit and then give option to convert to all
> simplified
> > > > > > or all traditional.  At the beginning I thought they are all
> default
> > > > > > to simplified (just because there are a lot of simplified pages
> and
> > > > > > Chinese wikipedia main page is defaulted to simplified chinese)
> but I
> > > > > > did find a few articles that are default to traditional.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think those tabs are useful if a localized campaigns have
> multiple
> > > > > > official languages, however, those tabs may get pretty messy if
> the
> > > > > > page are on concepts that are more "global"... say if the mission
> > > > > > statement is translated into 50 languages then you may have
> problem
> > > > > > with too many tabs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Who can add tabs there anyway?  admin?  which reminds me... I have
> > > > > > requested a new wikia for the the Hong Kong-localized version
> > > > > > (hk.campaigns.wikia.com) of Campaigns Wikia a week ago.  How long
> does
> > > > > > this process take usually?  Is the request queue getting really
> long
> > > > > > because of Wikimania?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kenny
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 8/2/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > > > > > > It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what
> caught my
> > > > > attention
> > > > > > > > was the navigation links along the top.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > zh
> > > > > > > > cn
> > > > > > > > tw
> > > > > > > > sg
> > > > > > > > hk
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > These are automatic links that perform an automated translation
> into
> > > > > > > different versions of Chinese. All simplified Chinese wikis have
> > > these
> > > > > > > options by default.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Angela.
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > > > >
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > > >
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>


From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Thu Aug  3 04:49:39 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:49:39 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <44D17051.9060008@san.rr.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608021347l5fbc7703n22d9e007898a258@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021826r2034193dle55b06ab9add787d@mail.gmail.com>
	<8666a1420608021852s321c4090uc29f5e90a00d9fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021955u1bcaefccs1f5a6ae4a1a879bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<8666a1420608022009x19c6775do5e00f9d59a80a783@mail.gmail.com>
	<44D17051.9060008@san.rr.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0608022149p315e8b0fl33b58361feee6421@mail.gmail.com>

No worries.  Your core concept is certainly something to strive for,
although I'm sure that automatic translation won't be available for some
time.  Translation on Wikipedia isn't done automatically, but by volunteers,
and I would honestly prefer to read what people write directly, but I'm
limited to english.

>From what I've seen of the wiki community, if you don't know something about
a subject, you let other people write the article on that subject.  I don't
know anything about Hong Kong, so I would certainly leave that for locals to
write about.  And we can help by asking a lot of questions.  I just read the
articles on elections in China and Hong Kong on Wikipedia, and it looks like
there is huge potential for a Chinese Campaigns wikia, and I would love to
see translations about who the candidates are and what they are trying to
do.  I just hope the site doesn't get blocked because of the content.

On the subject of generalizations, I think immigration policy is a good
example.  Most of the topical discussion on the English wikia is based
around the United States, because it's a big topic during this election
year.  And the first article that was created was just about the US debate.
However, I see someone has started expanding the scope of "Illegal
Immigration" by encouraging people to add their country and related policies
to a growing list.  As more content gets added, the articles will grow,
change, split and become closer to what we're hoping for.

Chad

On 8/2/06, Becky Blackham <bblackham at san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>  One campaigns Wikia with all entries being propagated into each of the
> languages maintained, a multi directional many flow back and forth across
> the barrier of languages? Is this possible?  If so, it would be the ultimate
> victory over the Tower of Babel problem that has divided global humanity
> from each other making us captive to whatever our broadcast institutions
> (notice I do not restrict this to "new" though it is the commonest) what
> bilingual authors are willing or allowed to publish in book form.
>
> As this wikia started in English, and the momentum is still there, there
> is likely to be English translated out for some time. Yet I would *love* to
> see an edit made by a resident of China or Russia or Hungary which has been
> translated back to us in English! Hot damn, it doesn't get any better than
> that! If such wikians were to develop huge sections of local issues and
> campaigns, I would be an avid reader.
>
> I'm sorry if I am being a dunce here, I was in a rush when I read this
> thread, but how do we get to the idea of closed Campaign Wikias, by language
> or any other factor. Is this not contrary to the very essence of wiki-ness,
> not to mention some aspects of the Mission Statement?  Please don't be
> aggravated if I am being clueless. I have missed something, I'm sure, and I
> apologize.
>
> Becky
> BbbOK
>
>
>
>
>
> Jennifer M. wrote:
>
> It seems to me that there will be recurring themes in any discussion of
> immigration policy: the desire to preserve the the native culture in the
> face of immigration by people with a different culture, the increase of a
> supply of labor with the attendant economic impacts (or the net outflow that
> some nations are experiencing with another set of impacts).  Those processes
> are probably universal and would benefit from a global namespace...
>
> In the meantime the local namespace of a single city's worth of data will
> (this has been my experience editing campaigns wikia making me wish
> "politics" was just a new kind of content in wikipedia) *probably* reference
> many facts and concepts with broad relevance and applicability.  Do you want
> a wiki where 80% of the links are to other wikis with broader scope?  If it
> were technically feasible I'd argue in favor of *only one* wiki with
> automatic translation progating edits back and forth between language
> versions (or to a central artificial language representation encoding all
> the info necessary for all the different natural language versions of the
> text).
>
> Perhaps this is simply a difference in values?  Universal verus
> particular?  If you simply object to lots of people using and editing the
> Hong Kong wiki because you want something local with a restricted "bais" or
> "flavor" I'd be cool with that... I've been working for that sort of thing
> within Campaigns Wikia as a promotion of "inherently biased" articles that
> should not be edited by people without certain affiliations.  For an
> example: http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/The_Politics_of_Slashdot
>
> -Jennifer
>
> On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I am not sure if i understand your points here.  Geographic political
> > affiliation is _not_ incompatible with intelligent discussion.
> > Geographic affiliation does not equal local only discussion.
> > Recognizing regional differences in political issues does not reduce
> > the amount of participation or discussing issue in intelligible way.
> > In fact, it will do exactly the opposite.  Certainly there are "name
> > space" like terrorism, global warming, etc. that applies globally and
> > therefore should have global discussion.  But one must recognize that
> > there are many issues that are directly associated with geography and
> > it is not up to us to decides differently.
> >
> > For example, immigration policy is certainly different between US and
> > Canada.  Should there be only one name space for immigration policy?
> > If so, does that suggest there will be a single unified policy that is
> > practical and adaptable for both country?  I mean... US is neighbour
> > with Mexico and we are neighbour with Arctic.  If not, how will having
> > a single name space produce more intelligent discussion?
> >
> > Kenny
> > On 8/2/06, Jennifer M. <jenniferforunity at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > In daily editing on Campaigns Wikia I've repreatedly felt as though I
> > was
> > > limited by the fact that we weren't simply a "new kind of content"
> > within
> > > wikipedia.  I see the values of wikis growing as more and more people
> > with
> > > diverse interests and knowledge fill in their own pieces of the
> > breadth of
> > > everything worth writing about... and breaking into specific wikis
> > prevents
> > > that.
> > >
> > > 100 wikis with 5 users each is, to my mind, 100 small wikis of very
> > little
> > > value.  Get the same 500 people editing content within a common "name
> > space"
> > > and something much more interesting and valuable occurs.
> > >
> > > It's for reasons like this that I'd prefer to have the "sub wikis"
> > subsume
> > > as much content as possible.  Better to have everyone on the planet
> > who can
> > > read and write Traditional (or Simplified) Chinese using the
> > "Traditional
> > > Chinese Political Wiki" (or the Simplified one).  Breaking things out
> > > country by country, region by region, or city by city when the
> > countries,
> > > regions, or cities have a common written language will likely lead to
> > a
> > > large number of ultimately less valuable wikis.
> > >
> > > Personally, I don't know if readers and writers of Traditional or
> > Simplified
> > > written Chinese can read and write in each other's systems.  I've
> > heard that
> > > Traditional trained people can generally get the gist of Simplified,
> > but
> > > that the reverse isn't always true.  And I knew a woman from Singapore
> > that
> > > once explained to me some of the unusual innovations Singaporeans made
> > with
> > > their nominally Traditional writing system...
> > >
> > > What I'm trying to say is that, in principle, I much prefer the idea
> > of a
> > > few big wikis rather than many small wikis and deviations from this
> > > principle seem to me as though they should be motivated by issues of
> > > intelligibility, rather than by issues of "political affiliation with
> > some
> > > geographic place".
> > >
> > > -Jennifer
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I am hoping the HK site will be in both Chinese and English since
> > > > these are the official/legal language of the city and people there
> > > > have diverse background (not necessary Chinese), however, I am not
> > > > certain about the logistic of it yet (both language on one page or
> > > > have the switching mechanism mentioned before).
> > > >
> > > > This localization is not so much a "breaking off" but more of a
> > > > sub-category to help discussion and representation of issues.  It is
> >
> > > > my understanding that the global guiding principle of Campaigns
> > Wikia
> > > > is having intelligent and thoughtful discussion of political issues
> > > > (beyond election) but not necessary a global one-size fits all
> > > > consensuses of values (which is what I worry about if all local
> > > > politics are mix into one main site.)  Just to be clear, I am not
> > > > trying to "fend off" foreign contribution to local issues.  In fact,
> >
> > > > on issues such as political reform in HK that is suppose to bring
> > more
> > > > democracy... experiences from citizens of democratic society would
> > be
> > > > very beneficial.  However, when these experiences are presented,
> > they
> > > > must be presented in a way that understand or at least respect the
> > > > differences in culture and context and I believe a clearly
> > distinctive
> > > > localization would help in that respect.
> > > >
> > > > I think it's great that you have interest in politics in so many
> > > > places and I think this will actually help you find local
> > information
> > > > much easier.  However, in order to engage the people at a personal
> > > > level, I do believe that most politics should have local distinction
> > > > because what's best for everyone in one place may not be practical
> > in
> > > > another.  For instance, political reform in Iran are more on
> > religion
> > > > vs secularism, which is a different type of reform than that in HK.
> > > > Similarly, there's also talk of political reform (Senate reform) in
> > > > Canada to make the system more responsive to the people and that is
> > > > also entirely different form the two mentioned before.  While I am
> > > > interested in politics in many places as well, I don't think many
> > > > people have the necessary time/energy to do so.  And I think it's up
> >
> > > > to people like us to connect and raise the local discussion to a
> > > > higher (regional, international, global) level when it is necessary.
> > > > An general English page on the topic of "political reform" won't
> > help
> > > > the local to make better policy decisions.
> > > >
> > > > Kenny
> > > >
> > > > On 8/2/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The details of the Chinese language diversity I didn't know, so
> > this is
> > > good
> > > > > information.
> > > > >
> > > > > Would the Hong Kong site be in a different language than Chinese,
> > or are
> > > you
> > > > > asking for a regional specific version?  My understanding is that
> > we're
> > > > > trying not to create regional sites, only language based.  Hong
> > Kong
> > > > > elections are welcome in English on the main site, and if we need
> > a
> > > Chinese
> > > > > language Campaigns site then let's get one started.  But I'd
> > rather not
> > > see
> > > > > regions break off from the main site.  This needs to be a global
> > > movement,
> > > > > and I'm almost as interested in Hong Kong elections as I am in
> > Seattle
> > > > > races, which is where I live.  We're all in this together.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Chad
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > I believe wikipedia default the Chinese version to which ever
> > one was
> > > > > > used on first edit and then give option to convert to all
> > simplified
> > > > > > or all traditional.  At the beginning I thought they are all
> > default
> > > > > > to simplified (just because there are a lot of simplified pages
> > and
> > > > > > Chinese wikipedia main page is defaulted to simplified chinese)
> > but I
> > > > > > did find a few articles that are default to traditional.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think those tabs are useful if a localized campaigns have
> > multiple
> > > > > > official languages, however, those tabs may get pretty messy if
> > the
> > > > > > page are on concepts that are more "global"... say if the
> > mission
> > > > > > statement is translated into 50 languages then you may have
> > problem
> > > > > > with too many tabs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Who can add tabs there anyway?  admin?  which reminds me... I
> > have
> > > > > > requested a new wikia for the the Hong Kong-localized version
> > > > > > (hk.campaigns.wikia.com) of Campaigns Wikia a week ago.  How
> > long does
> > > > > > this process take usually?  Is the request queue getting really
> > long
> > > > > > because of Wikimania?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kenny
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 8/2/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > > > > > > It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what
> > caught my
> > > > > attention
> > > > > > > > was the navigation links along the top.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > zh
> > > > > > > > cn
> > > > > > > > tw
> > > > > > > > sg
> > > > > > > > hk
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > These are automatic links that perform an automated
> > translation into
> > > > > > > different versions of Chinese. All simplified Chinese wikis
> > have
> > > these
> > > > > > > options by default.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Angela.
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________ Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
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From lucychili at gmail.com  Thu Aug  3 05:15:26 2006
From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 14:45:26 +0930
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <44D17051.9060008@san.rr.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608021347l5fbc7703n22d9e007898a258@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021826r2034193dle55b06ab9add787d@mail.gmail.com>
	<8666a1420608021852s321c4090uc29f5e90a00d9fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021955u1bcaefccs1f5a6ae4a1a879bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<8666a1420608022009x19c6775do5e00f9d59a80a783@mail.gmail.com>
	<44D17051.9060008@san.rr.com>
Message-ID: <c9d7bc330608022215r7088651cta43e0b9b204c6c3@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/3/06, Becky Blackham <bblackham at san.rr.com> wrote:

>  I'm sorry if I am being a dunce here, I was in a rush when I read this
> thread, but how do we get to the idea of closed Campaign Wikias, by language
> or any other factor. Is this not contrary to the very essence of wiki-ness,
> not to mention some aspects of the Mission Statement?  Please don't be
> aggravated if I am being clueless. I have missed something, I'm sure, and I
> apologize.

No you share my concern.

For a wiki to start with an English is main and dialects are
irrelevant beginning point
especially when it is about politics and the right for people to
express divergence
is a sad thing in my opinion. The idea that there is a main site in
any form or language presumes that there is right of way for one
perspective.

I am not American so I speak a dialect of English, some call it
international English.
I am not so concerned that there will be bickering over z's and lls in English,
but think that there are many nations and people within nations who
speak English who would not have a US based perspective on what is
valid and important.
Or for that matter an opinion which is consistent with a political
party or government in power in their own country. For some people for
example in Timor Leste
the language used says a great deal about the perspective of the
message before you even get a sentence out.

The campaign.wikia site is being structured primarily around
campaigners and existing politicians. That will probably result in
fairly formalised and limited divergence of opinion based on party
lines = ie a map of the existing political system but not really a
forum for ideas to be shared on issues.
This structure makes sense for politicians who wish to be seen in a new medium.
For me as a layperson wishing to find others with similar concerns on
an international issue I need a different kind of wiki.

Economic rationalist jargon can in some ways be a kind of dialect. I
tried to start some content about the DMCA but after some weeks the
material is still part of a talk page on Digital Rights, with the
proposed page being Digital Rights Management. These terms are so
partisan its surprising they are not trademarked.
The scope of the discussion is then defined by the language used, the
relationships of the people involved are defined into publisher and consumer.
Creator-consumers dont fit. Information being accessed as a right and
not as a customer/consumer does not fit.(Someone else pointed out I
had made this mistake - thanks) Creative commons doesn't fit. The link
between health in Africa and Medicine patents is out of scope. The
language structures the room for the conversation and results in
limited options for forwards. I have become frustrated and stopped
working on it. As a page to point to for existing US politicians to
link to their position on an existing law the current page would
probably be fine.

Issues wiki seems to be taking on the dialogue based material, so
perhaps the best path is to recognise that there are two kinds of
soapboxes.

One is for people to see and identify politicians by their platforms.
This one could really just have translation and not really need language flow
because the politician is making a statement about their own truth.
There could be room for comment but the core purpose is one way.

The other is for politicians to see and understand the discussions
held by people outside of the professional political sphere about what
is vital and what is destructive about policies and processes as they
stand or as they emerge.

As Becky points out there is potential in the wiki medium to have a
flow of dialogue across language boundaries. For that to work you need
two flavours of document.
One is a document in its home tongue, the other is a translation. Each
language group would need to be able to see both kinds of material and
to understand which
kind of document they are looking at and which language the
translation comes from etc. A space for dialogue is very different
from an encyclopedia because the value in the wiki is its ability to
facilitate us seeing another person's point of view.

This kind of wiki could enable politicians to discover their
communities in a new medium. And for communities to discover one
another without mediation. We could all learn about what kinds of
criteria people think might be good for mapping to a different
outcome. These might be divergent from the political frameworks as
they stand. This kind of wiki could only be effective if there is
language flow, opinion flow, inclusion of divergent material from
whichever dialect or
perspective the contributor is speaking/seeing.

ie there is room for looking at issues
- in english from english opinion x
- in english from another language opinion y
- in english from english opinion z, etc
and if at all possible
- common ground
- criteria for different view points
- possible criteria or suggestions for new outcomes.

This kind of inclusion means that as someone pointed out some weeks back
we would end up with a full spectrum of opinion from very radical to
more moderate opinions. Working from those starting points to look for
common ground and ways forward would be the real engine room of that
kind of wiki.

An issues wiki could well be something which does not end up with a
static outcome page but which is always in a process of moving towards
common ground or mapping a range of outcomes based on state of play at
any given time. It would be likely to be intense, passionate and in
places feral. How much feral for how much constructive outcome would
probably be an ongoing discussion.

In the long run I think the politician led campaign.wiki could be useful
but may be limited in its ability to facilitate change.

I think the people led wiki would be likely to have a lot more early contention
but may be a means for us to develop better ways of thinking and
problem solving.

Perhaps slicing them into campaign and issues wiki is a good first
step because there is a value or logic for two different structures
based on the goals and perspectives of the people participating.

Janet


From joe at daverin.com  Thu Aug  3 13:41:51 2006
From: joe at daverin.com (Joe Daverin)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:41:51 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Boston meetup
Message-ID: <57056713304E@64.119.142.83>

is today!
 
only a few have responded to the proposed meeting time/place, but i guess
people will just show up? i'm not sure how we'll find each other, people
coming from wikimania lodging will probably just come together, i guess the
rest of us will try to spot the crowd? to be honest i've never done one of
these kinds of meet-ups before so i don't know if there are established ways
of getting together, so i thought i'd shoot off an e-mail to see what other
people think.
 
thanks,
joe daverin
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From beesley at gmail.com  Thu Aug  3 16:34:21 2006
From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 12:34:21 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Boston meetup
In-Reply-To: <57056713304E@64.119.142.83>
References: <57056713304E@64.119.142.83>
Message-ID: <8b722b800608030934m54c53a3es4543943f1d8124dd@mail.gmail.com>

The meetup will be today at Greenhouse Cafe in the Harvard Science
Center at 1pm.

There's a map at
http://maps.yourgmap.com/v/q_g7_Meeting_spots_near_Wikimania.html

I think we're expecting more people than have agreed to the venue at
http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Local_Meetup_Schedule#Boston:_3_August_.28afternoon.29
so feel free to come along even if you didn't sign up.

Angela


From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Sat Aug  5 01:59:08 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 18:59:08 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Tabs
Message-ID: <801553ab0608041859l4b10571xaf2d76510aec7d25@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, I've copied the tab templates from More Perfect, and Waldsen and I are
experimenting with them.

http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Marijuana

http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Exploration

The only issue I have right now is the colors, and my wife says that it
might not be obvious to people unfamiliar with the site that they are tabs
that move from place to place.  I think a single click would provide that
knowledge.

What do people think?

Chad
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From y2keynes at gmail.com  Sat Aug  5 07:56:45 2006
From: y2keynes at gmail.com (YYK H)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 03:56:45 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Tabs
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0608041859l4b10571xaf2d76510aec7d25@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608041859l4b10571xaf2d76510aec7d25@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48d435670608050056v3d45e06bg50ab98067a686d55@mail.gmail.com>

I think they are pretty cool.  Your wife may be right about the colour
though... not that it's that hard to tell but I think less obstacle is
better to engage people...

While the tabs are useful, I worry that it may some how frame the
discussion into two extreme.  For sure there will be issues that
really should be just black and white but what about those that can
have spectrum of prespectives?  I am not sure if it can be done (or if
it's even necessary)... but say... for environmental protection...
it's probably not just Pro or Con... or Intervention or
non-intervention but may be in what situation should intervention be
made.  Or in the space exploration example...  is it possible to have
someone argue for, may be, exploration to upper orbit... or moon...
but not mars and beyond?

Kenny


On 8/4/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, I've copied the tab templates from More Perfect, and Waldsen and I are
> experimenting with them.
>
> http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Marijuana
>
> http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Exploration
>
> The only issue I have right now is the colors, and my wife says that it
> might not be obvious to people unfamiliar with the site that they are tabs
> that move from place to place.  I think a single click would provide that
> knowledge.
>
> What do people think?
>
>
> Chad
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>


From kaurjmeb at gmail.com  Sat Aug  5 12:39:47 2006
From: kaurjmeb at gmail.com (KJ)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 20:39:47 +0800
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Languages
In-Reply-To: <8b722b800608021402h6fd306a2s6bba97f92f45b3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608020741l2bd6bbf6ma916ca15dd1e69d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021053m479af5bcof88cbe34ec41a017@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608021336l36edc461v2b3c82042b32913a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800608021402h6fd306a2s6bba97f92f45b3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa2ef4440608050539r292bba91sd204a0b85274d047@mail.gmail.com>

to YYKH

Chinese wikipedia's origenal "content" is mixed with traditional and
simplified Chinese, depend on which kind of characters users input.
Only zh as default language could show 4 different zh tab. If your default
is zh-hk, that would be show only traditional Chinese. The problem is this
wiki can not convert simplified Chinese to traditional if a user input with
simplified.
A wiki which default language is zh-cn, zh-hk..... has more steps to build
up. It's in process already. You'll recieve a mail when this wiki created.



---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com>
> Date: Aug 2, 2006 4:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Languages
> To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
>
>
> I believe wikipedia default the Chinese version to which ever one was
> used on first edit and then give option to convert to all simplified
> or all traditional.  At the beginning I thought they are all default
> to simplified (just because there are a lot of simplified pages and
> Chinese wikipedia main page is defaulted to simplified chinese) but I
> did find a few articles that are default to traditional.
>
> I think those tabs are useful if a localized campaigns have multiple
> official languages, however, those tabs may get pretty messy if the
> page are on concepts that are more "global"... say if the mission
> statement is translated into 50 languages then you may have problem
> with too many tabs.
>
> Who can add tabs there anyway?  admin?  which reminds me... I have
> requested a new wikia for the the Hong Kong-localized version
> (hk.campaigns.wikia.com) of Campaigns Wikia a week ago.  How long does
> this process take usually?  Is the request queue getting really long
> because of Wikimania?
>
> Kenny
>
> On 8/2/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what caught my
> attention
> > > was the navigation links along the top.
> > >
> > > zh
> > > cn
> > > tw
> > > sg
> > > hk
> >
> > These are automatic links that perform an automated translation into
> > different versions of Chinese. All simplified Chinese wikis have these
> > options by default.
> >
> > Angela.
>



-- 
KaurJmeb(KJ)
Wikia ??wiki??:http://www.wikia.com/wiki/%E9%A6%96%E9%A0%81
???????http://zh.wikipedia.org
My blog?http://www.wretch.cc/blog/kaurjmeb
???????~
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From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Sat Aug  5 16:39:14 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 09:39:14 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Tabs
In-Reply-To: <48d435670608050056v3d45e06bg50ab98067a686d55@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608041859l4b10571xaf2d76510aec7d25@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608050056v3d45e06bg50ab98067a686d55@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0608050939j56c67d26m56b440e1f79ef344@mail.gmail.com>

Don't forget, this is in infancy right now.  General subjects might not be
appropriate for pro/con arguments, because there are so many details that
need to be worked out.  As the site evolves and grows, we'll see articles
like Space split off into multiple sub-debates.  And yes, there are people
who argue that the Moon is a goal but that Mars is a waste of time, and
people who argue the opposite.  It shows the lack of long term vision in our
culture right now.

What about putting borders around the unused tabs without the color?

Chad


On 8/5/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think they are pretty cool.  Your wife may be right about the colour
> though... not that it's that hard to tell but I think less obstacle is
> better to engage people...
>
> While the tabs are useful, I worry that it may some how frame the
> discussion into two extreme.  For sure there will be issues that
> really should be just black and white but what about those that can
> have spectrum of prespectives?  I am not sure if it can be done (or if
> it's even necessary)... but say... for environmental protection...
> it's probably not just Pro or Con... or Intervention or
> non-intervention but may be in what situation should intervention be
> made.  Or in the space exploration example...  is it possible to have
> someone argue for, may be, exploration to upper orbit... or moon...
> but not mars and beyond?
>
> Kenny
>
>
> On 8/4/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I've copied the tab templates from More Perfect, and Waldsen and I
> are
> > experimenting with them.
> >
> > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Marijuana
> >
> > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Exploration
> >
> > The only issue I have right now is the colors, and my wife says that it
> > might not be obvious to people unfamiliar with the site that they are
> tabs
> > that move from place to place.  I think a single click would provide
> that
> > knowledge.
> >
> > What do people think?
> >
> >
> > Chad
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From y2keynes at gmail.com  Sat Aug  5 19:00:54 2006
From: y2keynes at gmail.com (YYK H)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 15:00:54 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Tabs
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0608050939j56c67d26m56b440e1f79ef344@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608041859l4b10571xaf2d76510aec7d25@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608050056v3d45e06bg50ab98067a686d55@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608050939j56c67d26m56b440e1f79ef344@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48d435670608051200t65f4f471x206b84cfbfc3a3b0@mail.gmail.com>

Understand.  I was just thinking out loud that's all :-)

I think adding borders would work.  I am actually not quite familar
with the technical side of this thing... does the wiki source get
parsed into HTML some how or is every wiki tag/convention base on some
type of look up template?

Kenny

On 8/5/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Don't forget, this is in infancy right now.  General subjects might not be
> appropriate for pro/con arguments, because there are so many details that
> need to be worked out.  As the site evolves and grows, we'll see articles
> like Space split off into multiple sub-debates.  And yes, there are people
> who argue that the Moon is a goal but that Mars is a waste of time, and
> people who argue the opposite.  It shows the lack of long term vision in our
> culture right now.
>
> What about putting borders around the unused tabs without the color?
>
>
> Chad
>
>
>
> On 8/5/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think they are pretty cool.  Your wife may be right about the colour
> > though... not that it's that hard to tell but I think less obstacle is
> > better to engage people...
> >
> > While the tabs are useful, I worry that it may some how frame the
> > discussion into two extreme.  For sure there will be issues that
> > really should be just black and white but what about those that can
> > have spectrum of prespectives?  I am not sure if it can be done (or if
> > it's even necessary)... but say... for environmental protection...
> > it's probably not just Pro or Con... or Intervention or
> > non-intervention but may be in what situation should intervention be
> > made.  Or in the space exploration example...  is it possible to have
> > someone argue for, may be, exploration to upper orbit... or moon...
> > but not mars and beyond?
> >
> > Kenny
> >
> >
> > On 8/4/06, Chad Lupkes < chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok, I've copied the tab templates from More Perfect, and Waldsen and I
> are
> > > experimenting with them.
> > >
> > > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Marijuana
> > >
> > > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Exploration
> > >
> > > The only issue I have right now is the colors, and my wife says that it
> > > might not be obvious to people unfamiliar with the site that they are
> tabs
> > > that move from place to place.  I think a single click would provide
> that
> > > knowledge.
> > >
> > > What do people think?
> > >
> > >
> > > Chad
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>


From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Sat Aug  5 21:49:17 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 14:49:17 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Tabs
In-Reply-To: <48d435670608051200t65f4f471x206b84cfbfc3a3b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608041859l4b10571xaf2d76510aec7d25@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608050056v3d45e06bg50ab98067a686d55@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608050939j56c67d26m56b440e1f79ef344@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608051200t65f4f471x206b84cfbfc3a3b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0608051449j50d31be9t48181ab2f8031a60@mail.gmail.com>

The wiki tags are parsed, but most basic html also works within the wiki
text.  I'll see what I can do.

Chad


On 8/5/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Understand.  I was just thinking out loud that's all :-)
>
> I think adding borders would work.  I am actually not quite familar
> with the technical side of this thing... does the wiki source get
> parsed into HTML some how or is every wiki tag/convention base on some
> type of look up template?
>
> Kenny
>
> On 8/5/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Don't forget, this is in infancy right now.  General subjects might not
> be
> > appropriate for pro/con arguments, because there are so many details
> that
> > need to be worked out.  As the site evolves and grows, we'll see
> articles
> > like Space split off into multiple sub-debates.  And yes, there are
> people
> > who argue that the Moon is a goal but that Mars is a waste of time, and
> > people who argue the opposite.  It shows the lack of long term vision in
> our
> > culture right now.
> >
> > What about putting borders around the unused tabs without the color?
> >
> >
> > Chad
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/5/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I think they are pretty cool.  Your wife may be right about the colour
> > > though... not that it's that hard to tell but I think less obstacle is
> > > better to engage people...
> > >
> > > While the tabs are useful, I worry that it may some how frame the
> > > discussion into two extreme.  For sure there will be issues that
> > > really should be just black and white but what about those that can
> > > have spectrum of prespectives?  I am not sure if it can be done (or if
> > > it's even necessary)... but say... for environmental protection...
> > > it's probably not just Pro or Con... or Intervention or
> > > non-intervention but may be in what situation should intervention be
> > > made.  Or in the space exploration example...  is it possible to have
> > > someone argue for, may be, exploration to upper orbit... or moon...
> > > but not mars and beyond?
> > >
> > > Kenny
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/4/06, Chad Lupkes < chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I've copied the tab templates from More Perfect, and Waldsen and
> I
> > are
> > > > experimenting with them.
> > > >
> > > > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Marijuana
> > > >
> > > > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Exploration
> > > >
> > > > The only issue I have right now is the colors, and my wife says that
> it
> > > > might not be obvious to people unfamiliar with the site that they
> are
> > tabs
> > > > that move from place to place.  I think a single click would provide
> > that
> > > > knowledge.
> > > >
> > > > What do people think?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chad
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From mboverload at gmail.com  Sat Aug  5 22:22:33 2006
From: mboverload at gmail.com (mboverload)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 15:22:33 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Tabs
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0608051449j50d31be9t48181ab2f8031a60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608041859l4b10571xaf2d76510aec7d25@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608050056v3d45e06bg50ab98067a686d55@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608050939j56c67d26m56b440e1f79ef344@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608051200t65f4f471x206b84cfbfc3a3b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608051449j50d31be9t48181ab2f8031a60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482df7800608051522s5d19f17p1222c1ee073f6146@mail.gmail.com>

Note these are actually from the Wikipedia new user introduction =D
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From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Sat Aug  5 22:30:20 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 15:30:20 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Tabs
In-Reply-To: <482df7800608051522s5d19f17p1222c1ee073f6146@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608041859l4b10571xaf2d76510aec7d25@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608050056v3d45e06bg50ab98067a686d55@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608050939j56c67d26m56b440e1f79ef344@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608051200t65f4f471x206b84cfbfc3a3b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608051449j50d31be9t48181ab2f8031a60@mail.gmail.com>
	<482df7800608051522s5d19f17p1222c1ee073f6146@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0608051530g79ba3b42x46d22dfdcbfc45df@mail.gmail.com>

I grabbed them from MorePerfect, and I want to make sure they get the
credit.

Chad


On 8/5/06, mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Note these are actually from the Wikipedia new user introduction =D
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
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From y2keynes at gmail.com  Sat Aug  5 23:07:07 2006
From: y2keynes at gmail.com (YYK H)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 19:07:07 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Tabs
In-Reply-To: <482df7800608051522s5d19f17p1222c1ee073f6146@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608041859l4b10571xaf2d76510aec7d25@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608050056v3d45e06bg50ab98067a686d55@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608050939j56c67d26m56b440e1f79ef344@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608051200t65f4f471x206b84cfbfc3a3b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608051449j50d31be9t48181ab2f8031a60@mail.gmail.com>
	<482df7800608051522s5d19f17p1222c1ee073f6146@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48d435670608051607q19937087q450cb35326a9c25d@mail.gmail.com>

That reminds me... how much common is there between wikipedia and
wikia?  It looks like they use the same backend but it looks like not
all the wikipedia features/tags are available in wikia.  (The edit
page for sure look different... and I tried to use the translation in
progress tag but that doesn't seem to be available.)


On 8/5/06, mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote:
> Note these are actually from the Wikipedia new user introduction =D
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>


From jenniferforunity at gmail.com  Sun Aug  6 00:17:47 2006
From: jenniferforunity at gmail.com (Jennifer M.)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 17:17:47 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Tabs
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0608050939j56c67d26m56b440e1f79ef344@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0608041859l4b10571xaf2d76510aec7d25@mail.gmail.com>
	<48d435670608050056v3d45e06bg50ab98067a686d55@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0608050939j56c67d26m56b440e1f79ef344@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8666a1420608051717w20567396o9bbebc9355804136@mail.gmail.com>

I agree that tabs may lead to "two extremes" writing.

I was looking at the Marijuana page and the people against legalization
wrote something about "pot has lots of unstudied chemicals in it so it's
unethical to experiment on people"... but the same reasoning means we should
ban herbal supplements and tobacco.  Most herbal supplements are taken for
*health reasons* rather than "to get a buzz" yet they don't even have their
*main* ingredient tested for efficacy and safety.

This particular argument seems like it's a "pro legalization" argument and
so it didn't seem like it would be right to edit the "Con" page to include
this note about the logical extensions of the reasoning to something many
people would object to (making tobacco illegal).

Personally, I'd rather keep the pro and con on the *same* page and give them
equal time on each sub issue.  For example, wikipedia has an article on the
simplification of Chinese characters with a big section of the debate about
simplification that I quite like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Chinese_character

They put *each argument* in a list and gave the pro versus con on each
argument right next to the response where you can compare them on the same
screen instead of bouncing back and forth.  If you allow debate on the pages
it's even worse... because if an argument has both sides which page does it
belong on, pro or con?  If you're just looking for a specific sub argument
you have to scan both pages rather than just one.

-Jennifer

On 8/5/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Don't forget, this is in infancy right now.  General subjects might not be
> appropriate for pro/con arguments, because there are so many details that
> need to be worked out.  As the site evolves and grows, we'll see articles
> like Space split off into multiple sub-debates.  And yes, there are people
> who argue that the Moon is a goal but that Mars is a waste of time, and
> people who argue the opposite.  It shows the lack of long term vision in our
> culture right now.
>
> What about putting borders around the unused tabs without the color?
>
> Chad
>
>
> On 8/5/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think they are pretty cool.  Your wife may be right about the colour
> > though... not that it's that hard to tell but I think less obstacle is
> > better to engage people...
> >
> > While the tabs are useful, I worry that it may some how frame the
> > discussion into two extreme.  For sure there will be issues that
> > really should be just black and white but what about those that can
> > have spectrum of prespectives?  I am not sure if it can be done (or if
> > it's even necessary)... but say... for environmental protection...
> > it's probably not just Pro or Con... or Intervention or
> > non-intervention but may be in what situation should intervention be
> > made.  Or in the space exploration example...  is it possible to have
> > someone argue for, may be, exploration to upper orbit... or moon...
> > but not mars and beyond?
> >
> > Kenny
> >
> >
> > On 8/4/06, Chad Lupkes < chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok, I've copied the tab templates from More Perfect, and Waldsen and I
> > are
> > > experimenting with them.
> > >
> > > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Marijuana
> > >
> > > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Exploration
> > >
> > > The only issue I have right now is the colors, and my wife says that
> > it
> > > might not be obvious to people unfamiliar with the site that they are
> > tabs
> > > that move from place to place.  I think a single click would provide
> > that
> > > knowledge.
> > >
> > > What do people think?
> > >
> > >
> > > Chad
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
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From jenniferforunity at gmail.com  Sun Aug  6 00:46:15 2006
From: jenniferforunity at gmail.com (Jennifer M.)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 17:46:15 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Wikipedia and Campaigns in the same namespace... was
	"Languages"
Message-ID: <8666a1420608051746sb07c7a4s1d7ff566d628a9fa@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In the meantime the local namespace of a single city's worth of data
> will
> > (this has been my experience editing campaigns wikia making me wish
> > "politics" was just a new kind of content in wikipedia) *probably*
> reference
> > many facts and concepts with broad relevance and applicability.  Do you
> want
> > a wiki where 80% of the links are to other wikis with broader scope?  If
> it
> > were technically feasible I'd argue in favor of *only one* wiki with
> > automatic translation progating edits back and forth between language
> > versions (or to a central artificial language representation encoding
> all
> > the info necessary for all the different natural language versions of
> the
> > text).
> Um... may be I have misunderstood the concept of campaigns wikia... To
> my understanding this wikia is a platform of idea exchange on politics
> and intelligent discussion... which unavoidably would be fill with POV
> (I mean... isn't that what politic is?)  To make these POV thoughtful
> and relevant, they should be backup by facts...so to me, pretty much
> 100% of the links would be external leaving only POVs from all sides
> on the page.  I don't' know... this is how I see intelligent
> discussion and exchange can occurs... I mean, if we want facts and
> concept, wikipedia in itself is already an excellent source, so may be
> I am totally off.


The trick is that the facts themselves are sometimes in dispute, especially
when they have relevance to controversial issues.  It would be nice if we
could have "neutral fact" pages intermixed with the "pages full of opinions"
where people just coming from an opinion page full of "readiness to edit"
find a place where such edits are welcome.

The most elegant solution from my perspective would be to just add
"political pages" to Wikipedia itself.  They wouldn't be part of "the
encyclopedia" they would be parallel to it in the same name space.  If
wikipedia is ever printed out "as an encyclopedia" then you leave the
political stuff out.

One thing to mention is that having political content "right next to" the
other content is likely to make "factual articles" more likely to be edited
by more people with more diverse opinions.  For example if you look at the
Liquid Democracy pages on Wikipedia versus Campaigns, campaigns already has
better content on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy
http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Liquid_Democracy

Admittedly the Campaigns version has opinions mixed in, but if the page was
split into background versus opinions the Campaigns "Issue Backgrounder"
would be a superior article for wikipedia to use as an encyclopedia entry.
I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happened to many "issue related
factual subjects" that "encyclopedists" don't think are worth lots of
attention but political people do.

-Jennifer
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From brahn at actblue.com  Sun Aug  6 05:25:50 2006
From: brahn at actblue.com (Benjamin Rahn)
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 01:25:50 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Wikipedia and Campaigns in the same namespace...
	was "Languages"
In-Reply-To: <8666a1420608051746sb07c7a4s1d7ff566d628a9fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8666a1420608051746sb07c7a4s1d7ff566d628a9fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.56.0608060115500.1816@team-toby>

> The trick is that the facts themselves are sometimes in dispute, especially
> when they have relevance to controversial issues.  It would be nice if we
> could have "neutral fact" pages intermixed with the "pages full of opinions"
> where people just coming from an opinion page full of "readiness to edit"
> find a place where such edits are welcome.

Conversation at the Boston meetup led me to recall a web site I
haven't looked at in a long time: http://www.publicagenda.org/ which
provides one model for distinguishing the types of content described
above.

Public Agenda calls itself (in earnest) "A nonpartisan opinion
research and civic engagement organization helping Americans explore
and understand critical issues since 1975."

As an example of their approach, their education page
http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/frontdoor.cfm?issue_type=education
links to both a "Fact File"
http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/factfiles.cfm?issue_type=education
and "Discussion Guides"
http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/debate.cfm?issue_type=education
http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/debate_detail2.cfm?issue_type=education
http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/debate_questions.cfm?issue_type=education
which walk through the differing perspectives and arguments (both pro
and con) for each.

-Ben




From darrell at darrellsilver.com  Sun Aug  6 21:17:19 2006
From: darrell at darrellsilver.com (Darrell Silver)
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 17:17:19 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Congressional Navigation/GUI
Message-ID: <A228D4EE-65B5-4D9A-8C1A-5CAEB34F171A@darrellsilver.com>

I've written a beta navigation and I'd love some feedback, especially  
in how it could be improved, integrated and moved to  
campaigns.wikia.  In its current state, I've overlayed congressional  
district data on google maps, where clicking on a district shows the  
current representative.

I'd like to integrate this into wikia, linking from the map data to  
the appropriate entries for that person.  Initially, I was inspired  
by someone's idea here of showing the incumbent and his/her  
challenger, linking to their bios, quotes, issue positions, etc.

The site is currently hosted at

http://campaigns.darrellsilver.com/

I'd like to move it into the wikia site, if possible. Any feedback /  
advice is much appreciated.

Currently, there are a few limitations:
  - no Senate coverage
  - misalignment of the map at high zoom levels.
  - The default view is NYC, b/c that's where I am.  Obviously just  
arbitrary.


TIA,

Darrell Silver



From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Sun Aug  6 21:50:07 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 14:50:07 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Congressional Navigation/GUI
In-Reply-To: <A228D4EE-65B5-4D9A-8C1A-5CAEB34F171A@darrellsilver.com>
References: <A228D4EE-65B5-4D9A-8C1A-5CAEB34F171A@darrellsilver.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0608061450s784481b5ne99b7042a5214196@mail.gmail.com>

Great concept page!

Couple of comments.  Your data is a few years old, and it doesn't work in
IE6, only Firefox.  Not sure why.  And the further we zoom out, the less
accurate the borders are.

Looks like the GoogleMaps extension is not installed on Wikia, yet.

Chad


On 8/6/06, Darrell Silver <darrell at darrellsilver.com> wrote:
>
> I've written a beta navigation and I'd love some feedback, especially
> in how it could be improved, integrated and moved to
> campaigns.wikia.  In its current state, I've overlayed congressional
> district data on google maps, where clicking on a district shows the
> current representative.
>
> I'd like to integrate this into wikia, linking from the map data to
> the appropriate entries for that person.  Initially, I was inspired
> by someone's idea here of showing the incumbent and his/her
> challenger, linking to their bios, quotes, issue positions, etc.
>
> The site is currently hosted at
>
> http://campaigns.darrellsilver.com/
>
> I'd like to move it into the wikia site, if possible. Any feedback /
> advice is much appreciated.
>
> Currently, there are a few limitations:
> - no Senate coverage
> - misalignment of the map at high zoom levels.
> - The default view is NYC, b/c that's where I am.  Obviously just
> arbitrary.
>
>
> TIA,
>
> Darrell Silver
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From deane at jessep.co.nz  Sun Aug  6 22:39:49 2006
From: deane at jessep.co.nz (deane at jessep.co.nz)
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:39:49 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Hello all from Deane Jessep
Message-ID: <1307.202.137.242.7.1154903989.squirrel@s3.eroute.net>

Hi all, my name is Deane Jessep and I am one of those "dirty rotten
politician types", seriously though I am from New Zealand, I am 27 years
old and have been a Napier City Councillor for nearly 2 years.
I love the whole concept of this wiki and really feel that it is entirely
in tune with where I think the future media drive will live.
I am a very center politician, as I lean a little to the right with my
belief in personal responsability but a little to the left with a strong
view we should love and help each other.
I am here to contribute as well as to listen, so please feel free to tell
me what you think... especially if you are from New Zealand.
My blog is http://blog.deane.jessep.co.nz/blog.html but cut me a break as
I have only just activated it and my family have been taking up all my
time lately.
Keen to hear from you all.

Deane Jessep


From deane at jessep.co.nz  Sun Aug  6 23:02:57 2006
From: deane at jessep.co.nz (deane at jessep.co.nz)
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:02:57 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Congressional Navigation/GUI
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0608061450s784481b5ne99b7042a5214196@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A228D4EE-65B5-4D9A-8C1A-5CAEB34F171A@darrellsilver.com>
	<801553ab0608061450s784481b5ne99b7042a5214196@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1510.202.137.242.7.1154905377.squirrel@s3.eroute.net>

Very cool idea,