[Campaigns-l] Languages

Thu Aug 3 04:49:39 UTC 2006

No worries.  Your core concept is certainly something to strive for,
although I'm sure that automatic translation won't be available for some
time.  Translation on Wikipedia isn't done automatically, but by volunteers,
and I would honestly prefer to read what people write directly, but I'm
limited to english.

>From what I've seen of the wiki community, if you don't know something about
a subject, you let other people write the article on that subject.  I don't
know anything about Hong Kong, so I would certainly leave that for locals to
write about.  And we can help by asking a lot of questions.  I just read the
articles on elections in China and Hong Kong on Wikipedia, and it looks like
there is huge potential for a Chinese Campaigns wikia, and I would love to
see translations about who the candidates are and what they are trying to
do.  I just hope the site doesn't get blocked because of the content.

On the subject of generalizations, I think immigration policy is a good
example.  Most of the topical discussion on the English wikia is based
around the United States, because it's a big topic during this election
year.  And the first article that was created was just about the US debate.
However, I see someone has started expanding the scope of "Illegal
Immigration" by encouraging people to add their country and related policies
to a growing list.  As more content gets added, the articles will grow,
change, split and become closer to what we're hoping for.

Chad

On 8/2/06, Becky Blackham <bblackham at san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>  One campaigns Wikia with all entries being propagated into each of the
> languages maintained, a multi directional many flow back and forth across
> the barrier of languages? Is this possible?  If so, it would be the ultimate
> victory over the Tower of Babel problem that has divided global humanity
> from each other making us captive to whatever our broadcast institutions
> (notice I do not restrict this to "new" though it is the commonest) what
> bilingual authors are willing or allowed to publish in book form.
>
> As this wikia started in English, and the momentum is still there, there
> is likely to be English translated out for some time. Yet I would *love* to
> see an edit made by a resident of China or Russia or Hungary which has been
> translated back to us in English! Hot damn, it doesn't get any better than
> that! If such wikians were to develop huge sections of local issues and
> campaigns, I would be an avid reader.
>
> I'm sorry if I am being a dunce here, I was in a rush when I read this
> thread, but how do we get to the idea of closed Campaign Wikias, by language
> or any other factor. Is this not contrary to the very essence of wiki-ness,
> not to mention some aspects of the Mission Statement?  Please don't be
> aggravated if I am being clueless. I have missed something, I'm sure, and I
> apologize.
>
> Becky
> BbbOK
>
>
>
>
>
> Jennifer M. wrote:
>
> It seems to me that there will be recurring themes in any discussion of
> immigration policy: the desire to preserve the the native culture in the
> face of immigration by people with a different culture, the increase of a
> supply of labor with the attendant economic impacts (or the net outflow that
> some nations are experiencing with another set of impacts).  Those processes
> are probably universal and would benefit from a global namespace...
>
> In the meantime the local namespace of a single city's worth of data will
> (this has been my experience editing campaigns wikia making me wish
> "politics" was just a new kind of content in wikipedia) *probably* reference
> many facts and concepts with broad relevance and applicability.  Do you want
> a wiki where 80% of the links are to other wikis with broader scope?  If it
> were technically feasible I'd argue in favor of *only one* wiki with
> automatic translation progating edits back and forth between language
> versions (or to a central artificial language representation encoding all
> the info necessary for all the different natural language versions of the
> text).
>
> Perhaps this is simply a difference in values?  Universal verus
> particular?  If you simply object to lots of people using and editing the
> Hong Kong wiki because you want something local with a restricted "bais" or
> "flavor" I'd be cool with that... I've been working for that sort of thing
> within Campaigns Wikia as a promotion of "inherently biased" articles that
> should not be edited by people without certain affiliations.  For an
> example: http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/The_Politics_of_Slashdot
>
> -Jennifer
>
> On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I am not sure if i understand your points here.  Geographic political
> > affiliation is _not_ incompatible with intelligent discussion.
> > Geographic affiliation does not equal local only discussion.
> > Recognizing regional differences in political issues does not reduce
> > the amount of participation or discussing issue in intelligible way.
> > In fact, it will do exactly the opposite.  Certainly there are "name
> > space" like terrorism, global warming, etc. that applies globally and
> > therefore should have global discussion.  But one must recognize that
> > there are many issues that are directly associated with geography and
> > it is not up to us to decides differently.
> >
> > For example, immigration policy is certainly different between US and
> > Canada.  Should there be only one name space for immigration policy?
> > If so, does that suggest there will be a single unified policy that is
> > practical and adaptable for both country?  I mean... US is neighbour
> > with Mexico and we are neighbour with Arctic.  If not, how will having
> > a single name space produce more intelligent discussion?
> >
> > Kenny
> > On 8/2/06, Jennifer M. <jenniferforunity at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > In daily editing on Campaigns Wikia I've repreatedly felt as though I
> > was
> > > limited by the fact that we weren't simply a "new kind of content"
> > within
> > > wikipedia.  I see the values of wikis growing as more and more people
> > with
> > > diverse interests and knowledge fill in their own pieces of the
> > breadth of
> > > everything worth writing about... and breaking into specific wikis
> > prevents
> > > that.
> > >
> > > 100 wikis with 5 users each is, to my mind, 100 small wikis of very
> > little
> > > value.  Get the same 500 people editing content within a common "name
> > space"
> > > and something much more interesting and valuable occurs.
> > >
> > > It's for reasons like this that I'd prefer to have the "sub wikis"
> > subsume
> > > as much content as possible.  Better to have everyone on the planet
> > who can
> > > read and write Traditional (or Simplified) Chinese using the
> > "Traditional
> > > Chinese Political Wiki" (or the Simplified one).  Breaking things out
> > > country by country, region by region, or city by city when the
> > countries,
> > > regions, or cities have a common written language will likely lead to
> > a
> > > large number of ultimately less valuable wikis.
> > >
> > > Personally, I don't know if readers and writers of Traditional or
> > Simplified
> > > written Chinese can read and write in each other's systems.  I've
> > heard that
> > > Traditional trained people can generally get the gist of Simplified,
> > but
> > > that the reverse isn't always true.  And I knew a woman from Singapore
> > that
> > > once explained to me some of the unusual innovations Singaporeans made
> > with
> > > their nominally Traditional writing system...
> > >
> > > What I'm trying to say is that, in principle, I much prefer the idea
> > of a
> > > few big wikis rather than many small wikis and deviations from this
> > > principle seem to me as though they should be motivated by issues of
> > > intelligibility, rather than by issues of "political affiliation with
> > some
> > > geographic place".
> > >
> > > -Jennifer
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I am hoping the HK site will be in both Chinese and English since
> > > > these are the official/legal language of the city and people there
> > > > have diverse background (not necessary Chinese), however, I am not
> > > > certain about the logistic of it yet (both language on one page or
> > > > have the switching mechanism mentioned before).
> > > >
> > > > This localization is not so much a "breaking off" but more of a
> > > > sub-category to help discussion and representation of issues.  It is
> >
> > > > my understanding that the global guiding principle of Campaigns
> > Wikia
> > > > is having intelligent and thoughtful discussion of political issues
> > > > (beyond election) but not necessary a global one-size fits all
> > > > consensuses of values (which is what I worry about if all local
> > > > politics are mix into one main site.)  Just to be clear, I am not
> > > > trying to "fend off" foreign contribution to local issues.  In fact,
> >
> > > > on issues such as political reform in HK that is suppose to bring
> > more
> > > > democracy... experiences from citizens of democratic society would
> > be
> > > > very beneficial.  However, when these experiences are presented,
> > they
> > > > must be presented in a way that understand or at least respect the
> > > > differences in culture and context and I believe a clearly
> > distinctive
> > > > localization would help in that respect.
> > > >
> > > > I think it's great that you have interest in politics in so many
> > > > places and I think this will actually help you find local
> > information
> > > > much easier.  However, in order to engage the people at a personal
> > > > level, I do believe that most politics should have local distinction
> > > > because what's best for everyone in one place may not be practical
> > in
> > > > another.  For instance, political reform in Iran are more on
> > religion
> > > > vs secularism, which is a different type of reform than that in HK.
> > > > Similarly, there's also talk of political reform (Senate reform) in
> > > > Canada to make the system more responsive to the people and that is
> > > > also entirely different form the two mentioned before.  While I am
> > > > interested in politics in many places as well, I don't think many
> > > > people have the necessary time/energy to do so.  And I think it's up
> >
> > > > to people like us to connect and raise the local discussion to a
> > > > higher (regional, international, global) level when it is necessary.
> > > > An general English page on the topic of "political reform" won't
> > help
> > > > the local to make better policy decisions.
> > > >
> > > > Kenny
> > > >
> > > > On 8/2/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The details of the Chinese language diversity I didn't know, so
> > this is
> > > good
> > > > > information.
> > > > >
> > > > > Would the Hong Kong site be in a different language than Chinese,
> > or are
> > > you
> > > > > asking for a regional specific version?  My understanding is that
> > we're
> > > > > trying not to create regional sites, only language based.  Hong
> > Kong
> > > > > elections are welcome in English on the main site, and if we need
> > a
> > > Chinese
> > > > > language Campaigns site then let's get one started.  But I'd
> > rather not
> > > see
> > > > > regions break off from the main site.  This needs to be a global
> > > movement,
> > > > > and I'm almost as interested in Hong Kong elections as I am in
> > Seattle
> > > > > races, which is where I live.  We're all in this together.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Chad
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 8/2/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > I believe wikipedia default the Chinese version to which ever
> > one was
> > > > > > used on first edit and then give option to convert to all
> > simplified
> > > > > > or all traditional.  At the beginning I thought they are all
> > default
> > > > > > to simplified (just because there are a lot of simplified pages
> > and
> > > > > > Chinese wikipedia main page is defaulted to simplified chinese)
> > but I
> > > > > > did find a few articles that are default to traditional.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think those tabs are useful if a localized campaigns have
> > multiple
> > > > > > official languages, however, those tabs may get pretty messy if
> > the
> > > > > > page are on concepts that are more "global"... say if the
> > mission
> > > > > > statement is translated into 50 languages then you may have
> > problem
> > > > > > with too many tabs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Who can add tabs there anyway?  admin?  which reminds me... I
> > have
> > > > > > requested a new wikia for the the Hong Kong-localized version
> > > > > > (hk.campaigns.wikia.com) of Campaigns Wikia a week ago.  How
> > long does
> > > > > > this process take usually?  Is the request queue getting really
> > long
> > > > > > because of Wikimania?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kenny
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 8/2/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > > > > > > It's a Chinese wikia for left wing information, but what
> > caught my
> > > > > attention
> > > > > > > > was the navigation links along the top.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > zh
> > > > > > > > cn
> > > > > > > > tw
> > > > > > > > sg
> > > > > > > > hk
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > These are automatic links that perform an automated
> > translation into
> > > > > > > different versions of Chinese. All simplified Chinese wikis
> > have
> > > these
> > > > > > > options by default.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Angela.
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