[Campaigns-l] Tabs v.s. tables or paragraphs for pro et con

Wed Aug 9 13:31:05 UTC 2006

Ok, the issue I see is the fact that these articles are not monitored by
experts or people who are focused on formatting.  Unless someone wants to
step forward and say that they will stay on top of edits and make sure that
comments, pro or con, are put in the right places and in the right way, we
have the potential for a lot of chaos.  I wanted to try the tabs because I
thought they might help avoid edit wars, and it does seem to have done
that.  People can reference something from the pro side on the con side, and
present their counter arguments, but it's not going to be automatic for them
to just go in and edit something that another person considers a reasonable
argument into something that they no longer agree with.

We're all volunteers.  We don't spend all day reading the new posts and
making sure that everyone is saying the right thing in the right way in the
right place.  That's not our responsibility.  What we are supposed to try
and do is provide infrastructure so that people can participate in a
comfortable way, and so far I would say that's working.  Even someone that I
know is totally against same-sex marriage has calmed down and started
working with others to develop a set of articles on that topic that flow
well and enhanse the conversation instead of hurt it.  So we're doing ok.

What we need more than anything is more people involved in gathering
candidate information and data on upcoming elections.

Chad

On 8/8/06, Morten Lange <morten7an at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I agree with Jennifer. I think it matters a lot to have the pro et con
> arguments close to each other. Some sort of a table might be the thing ?
>
> In addition that will mean that
> - the  conterarguments to the pro et con arguments can also be close to
> them.
> - there can be several lines of arguments pertaining the issue at hand. In
> the
> current example perhaps ( although I do not know the debate) arguments for
> and
> against legalisation of cannabis/marijuana  in medication as opposed to a
> totally free market, and further devided by  prescription -in common
> usage-
> v.s. non-prescription. I do not know how viable those arguments, but put
> them
> forward to illustrate the principle.
>
> The benefit of the pro- et con tabs is that it provides some sort of
> structure,
> but perhaps that can also be provided by a specially made table. One
> disadvantage of the table, is that it is quite tedious to edit. If some
> sort of
> aid to editing tables in wikimedia wikis was contrived, that would be of
> great
> benefit to very many users of the software, in Wikipedia, wikia and
> elsewhere.
>
>
> Regards,
> Morten
>
> --- "Jennifer M." < jenniferforunity at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I agree that tabs may lead to "two extremes" writing.
> >
> > I was looking at the Marijuana page and the people against legalization
> > wrote something about "pot has lots of unstudied chemicals in it so it's
> > unethical to experiment on people"... but the same reasoning means we
> should
> > ban herbal supplements and tobacco.  Most herbal supplements are taken
> for
> > *health reasons* rather than "to get a buzz" yet they don't even have
> their
> > *main* ingredient tested for efficacy and safety.
> >
> > This particular argument seems like it's a "pro legalization" argument
> and
> > so it didn't seem like it would be right to edit the "Con" page to
> include
> > this note about the logical extensions of the reasoning to something
> many
> > people would object to (making tobacco illegal).
> >
> > Personally, I'd rather keep the pro and con on the *same* page and give
> them
> > equal time on each sub issue.  For example, wikipedia has an article on
> the
> > simplification of Chinese characters with a big section of the debate
> about
> > simplification that I quite like:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Chinese_character
> >
> > They put *each argument* in a list and gave the pro versus con on each
> > argument right next to the response where you can compare them on the
> same
> > screen instead of bouncing back and forth.  If you allow debate on the
> pages
> > it's even worse... because if an argument has both sides which page does
> it
> > belong on, pro or con?  If you're just looking for a specific sub
> argument
> > you have to scan both pages rather than just one.
> >
> > -Jennifer
> >
> > On 8/5/06, Chad Lupkes < chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Don't forget, this is in infancy right now.  General subjects might
> not be
> > > appropriate for pro/con arguments, because there are so many details
> that
> > > need to be worked out.  As the site evolves and grows, we'll see
> articles
> > > like Space split off into multiple sub-debates.  And yes, there are
> people
> > > who argue that the Moon is a goal but that Mars is a waste of time,
> and
> > > people who argue the opposite.  It shows the lack of long term vision
> in
> > our
> > > culture right now.
> > >
> > > What about putting borders around the unused tabs without the color?
> > >
> > > Chad
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/5/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think they are pretty cool.  Your wife may be right about the
> colour
> > > > though... not that it's that hard to tell but I think less obstacle
> is
> > > > better to engage people...
> > > >
> > > > While the tabs are useful, I worry that it may some how frame the
> > > > discussion into two extreme.  For sure there will be issues that
> > > > really should be just black and white but what about those that can
> > > > have spectrum of prespectives?  I am not sure if it can be done (or
> if
> > > > it's even necessary)... but say... for environmental protection...
> > > > it's probably not just Pro or Con... or Intervention or
> > > > non-intervention but may be in what situation should intervention be
>
> > > > made.  Or in the space exploration example...  is it possible to
> have
> > > > someone argue for, may be, exploration to upper orbit... or moon...
> > > > but not mars and beyond?
> > > >
> > > > Kenny
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 8/4/06, Chad Lupkes < chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, I've copied the tab templates from More Perfect, and Waldsen
> and I
> > > > are
> > > > > experimenting with them.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Marijuana
> > > > >
> > > > > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Exploration
> > > > >
> > > > > The only issue I have right now is the colors, and my wife says
> that
> > > > it
> > > > > might not be obvious to people unfamiliar with the site that they
> are
> > > > tabs
> > > > > that move from place to place.  I think a single click would
> provide
> > > > that
> > > > > knowledge.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do people think?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Chad
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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