[Campaigns-l] neutrality - humanity - int. structure and concept

[Chad Lupkes]

Instead of NPOV, what if we set a policy of APOV?  Allow Points of View.

The biggest battle that we have had was about Same-Sex Marriage.  Not about
the subject itself, but whether the articles should have the category "Civil
rights".  Whenever someone came in to add the cat because they considered
the issue and the debate to be appropriate for that, one particular user
would remove it, simply because he didn't agree with it.  We fought a long
edit war about that one, finally requiring a consensus vote and blocking him
when he went on a vandalism rampage after the vote.

"Allow Points of View" as a policy would encourage people to express their
viewpoints, but would prevent them from doing anything that would prevent
others from expressing other viewpoints.  If you disagree, explain why by
participating instead of preventing the education of people who have not yet
made up their minds and want to learn from all sides.

Chad


On 8/16/06, YYK H <y2keynes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Ingmar and all,
>
> It's interesting that you brought up this topic because I have been
> giving some thoughts about this as I was translating CW into the
> Chinese language.  Before I continue my thought, I should let everyone
> know what I think CW is.  Here is my "logic" with certain
> terminologies from Jimmy's mission statement:
>
> Substance:
> That means CW is a place for everything political including but not
> limited to campaigns, which include individual policies and law, which
> are about issues affecting people's lives (present or future.)
>
> Participative, non-partisan
> That, to me, means that CW will be inclusive and engaging to all kinds of
> POVs.
>
> More intelligent
> That, to me, means going beyond what a POV is but also how that view
> comes to be.
>
>
> I believe that CW will need some kind of guiding principles similar to
> the model of wikipedia in the sense that the principles encourage
> people to work together to achieve a common goal.  However, I don't
> believe neutrality is part of the solution... not because we cannot
> have neutral POV, but because a must-be-neutral stance prevents the
> inclusion of extreme views that may shed better light on an issue.  CW
> should be a playground for people to _try_ to reach consensus but
> _not_ reaching one.  Not only because certain issues will never have a
> consensus, but also because I believe the consensus should be reached
> at the ballot box and not here.  What CW can do is let people be as
> informed as possible when they make their decisions.  As I mentioned
> in my post in the other day, politics are organic and it changes
> everyday.  I think that's the different between Wikipedia and CW: one
> is about "facts" and the other is about what people want to do with
> those "facts", which are POVs.
>
> I can certainly feel the passion from Ingmar regarding good vs bad,
> but I have to side with Seth's statement about "openness, fairness and
> non-exclusivity."  I mean, as bad as some dictatorships in history
> are, some may prefer a benevolent dictator over a democratic tyrant.
> I believe there should be room on CW for such a view not because I
> necessary agree with it but because I can communicate better with
> people with that view by knowing they exists.  I believe inclusiveness
> is key to a meaningful discussions and that is key to informative
> decisions.  Other than the NPOV rules, I think many Wikipedia's rules
> of conduct and policies are readily adoptable here.  May be we should
> establish some kind of "rules of order" for campaigns wikia similar to
> what Robert's Rule of Order is to many parlimantary system in the
> world.
>
>
>
>
> On 8/16/06, VirtualOffice at gmx.net <VirtualOffice at gmx.net> wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > Jimmy wrote me, that I should mail my petitions better here on the list,
> so I will do and try this now. :)
> >
> > I'm very interested in Campaigns Wikia and we try to find in the german
> language "kampagnen.wika" some basic resolutions. This is why I would like
> to ask you all some questions.
> >
> >
> > 1. int. basis structure, concept and methods
> >
> > First, I think, we need a foundation and a structure. That means also a
> structure between the single language Campaigns Wikia, so that we can
> contact and work with special people from the en, fr and other language
> Campaign Wika's.
> >
> > This is important for the future, because it would make not sense, if
> the different Campaign Wikia's would have other concepts and methods and
> thoughts, what Campaigns Wikia is and what not. We need a conjointly base
> between the language Campaign Wikias.
> >
> >
> > 2. to the structure...
> >
> > We on the german language Campaigns Wikia see at this time no good
> structure - also not on the english Campaigns Wikia and we dont want to copy
> this. There are many more or less senseful contributions, but unfortunately
> no structure to work effective on good campaigns. "Every politician would
> smile" wrotes NPbdV in the german CW chapter. Yes. :)
> >
> > We think, that we dont need a second "campaigns Wikipedia" and political
> discussions or political flame wars, because in the Wikipedia we found the
> most themes in great contributions and many of this have very warm
> discussions.
> >
> > So we need a new way to fill the great potential, what us is given now
> through Jimmy attention to make this world better also on a political way.
> There are many initiatives for online democracy or political wikis and
> nothing is new, but we have one important advantage now how it wrote the
> journalist "Erik Möller" and that is Jimmy Wales.
> >
> >
> > 3. neutrality, humanity - good people, bad people
> >
> > I think we should also think about a new definition about neutrality for
> Campaigns Wikia, because neutrality is not all. I can not be neutral if
> anybody say that a dictator is a good guy and people try to make campaigns
> for deep dark ideologies.
> >
> > Never, never, never!!! Here I will always say what Jimmy wrote about the
> TV politic: its stupid, stupid, stupid!!! I will never accept such
> ideologies against the human life. I will always fight for the right of the
> freedom of expression (also for such people), but I will never work together
> with people with such dark and bad thoughts on the same project. Would I do
> this, I would support with my "neutrality" this dark ideologies to get more
> attention.
> >
> > So Campaigns Wikia should have not only neutrality as concept. It should
> also have humanity as concept. With neutrality can not make the wolrd
> better. Also Wikipedia is not neutral. Wikipedia stands for free knowledge.
> Britanica for comercial knowledge. The open letter from Jimmy to the
> blogosphere is definitive not neutral for Campains Wikia. ;)
> >
> > So, if we help people to make campaigns, we should help good people,
> people without dark ideologies. We should help people, which want to make
> this world a better place for all people and not people, which want to
> create dark ideologies for the world. We dont help the humankind if we
> support and help campaigns with dark ideologies against the humankind to get
> more attention.
> >
> > Every news in a newspaper about Campaigns Wikia which campaigns from
> such people, would bring this people more attention and more such people to
> Campaigns Wikia and simultaneously the dead of Campaigns Wikia. The most
> people would never support a project which is a help for ideologies to get
> more attention. Also I'm not.
> >
> > This is why we need for Campaigns Wikia good people. Friendly, humane
> people, which want to make this world better - and not bader. Also we can
> not divide humanity in parties. Humanity is humanity. The modell of parties
> is a old modell. Humanity is a timeless knowledge. It is also known as
> wisdom.
> >
> > This is why every campaign on Campaigns Wikia should answer a question
> like this:
> >
> > "Is my campaign good for all people in the sense of the humankind, for
> every child - or helps my campaign to make this world more from bad to
> worse? Or helps my campaign single people or groups of people to get more
> power or more money to realize ideologies and/or to exploit other people?"
> >
> > I have not a sure formula for this, but I think we could together find
> such a rule for Campaigns Wikia so that we all have to do with good and
> friendly people.
> >
> > Its like free knowledge vs. commercial knowledge. Its like free water
> (as a human right) vs. commercial water. In such questions we should never
> be neutral. If we would neutral, we would support bad things. A neutral
> voice over a dictator helps a dictator like a good voice. That is the basic
> problem with neutrality in political affairs. Neutrality helps always the
> bad side.
> >
> > This is why we should be neutral and non-party, but we should also find
> together a rule with a humane aspect, so that we never support and give a
> place with Campaigns Wikia for campaigns against other people or the human
> rights or campaigns for power, money or ideological interests to get more
> attention in the world.
> >
> >
> > This is what I have to say at this time :-) and I hope we found together
> a good way for good and friendly people to realize good campaigns over
> Campaigns Wikia - and besides a foundation a international structure for the
> different language Wikias so that we can work together, so that we are
> strong, flexible, fast and convincing.
> >
> > I'm very interested to help to make Campaigns Wikia to a global leading
> plattform for campaigns which make this world a better place.
> >
> > With friendly and good people this is possible. :-)
> >
> > Now I'm very interested on your ideas and thoughts to this themes, so
> that we come together to a int. structure and concept.
> >
> > And if I'm wrong with my thoughts, I will ever learn from better
> thoughts. I'm adaptive ;-)
> >
> >
> > Ingmar
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> >
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