From joe at daverin.com  Wed Jul  5 20:55:52 2006
From: joe at daverin.com (Joe Daverin)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 16:55:52 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1152132509.2988.campaigns-l@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <777CCA70824@64.119.142.83>

Hi folks,

I'm not particularly politically involved, except when it comes to opinions.
But I'm high on wiki. I just started one at my workplace for software
development activities and project logs and fun stuff like that, and I've
just been blown away by the possibilities of such a simple, open
collaborative workspace. So I saw this link on BoingBoing.net (free plug,
one of my favorite blog-like thingies) and jumped in.

I sent e-mail to my federal reps, maybe will shoot them off to state reps
too later. I don't have too much hope for my senators (Kerry and Kennedy) as
they don't really seem "hip", as it were. But Meehan is my Representative
and he's always very e-active, lots of e-mails and web-based stuff, so he
might pay more attention.

Anyways, that's my story, I'll keep my eyes open and try to think of things
to help out.

Thanks,
Joe



From lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com  Wed Jul  5 21:36:46 2006
From: lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com (Lord Voldemort)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 17:36:46 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <777CCA70824@64.119.142.83>
References: <mailman.0.1152132509.2988.campaigns-l@wikia.com>
	<777CCA70824@64.119.142.83>
Message-ID: <aa62d5b70607051436u6e664a15v83dff2b8a21f776@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/5/06, Joe Daverin <joe at daverin.com> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I'm not particularly politically involved, except when it comes to opinions.
> But I'm high on wiki. I just started one at my workplace for software
> development activities and project logs and fun stuff like that, and I've
> just been blown away by the possibilities of such a simple, open
> collaborative workspace. So I saw this link on BoingBoing.net (free plug,
> one of my favorite blog-like thingies) and jumped in.
>
> I sent e-mail to my federal reps, maybe will shoot them off to state reps
> too later. I don't have too much hope for my senators (Kerry and Kennedy) as
> they don't really seem "hip", as it were. But Meehan is my Representative
> and he's always very e-active, lots of e-mails and web-based stuff, so he
> might pay more attention.
>
> Anyways, that's my story, I'll keep my eyes open and try to think of things
> to help out.

Actually, starting out locally might even be better than the
higher-ups.  If we can get enough of the small timers involved, the
big timers will have to pay attention.  So please, go ahead and
contact your local reps too.  I'll probably be doing the same in a
short while. Cheers!  --LV


From ap at Pass-Ed.com  Thu Jul  6 02:09:01 2006
From: ap at Pass-Ed.com (Andrew Pass)
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 22:09:01 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Great Idea
Message-ID: <44AC70BD.6000300@Pass-Ed.com>

I think the idea of setting up a wiki for political campaigns is 
excellent.  I posted an entry today on my blog about Ned Lamont, Joe 
Lieberman's opponent in the Connecticut primary. The address is 
http://www.Pass-Ed.com/blogger.html

Andy



From tom at memestreams.net  Thu Jul  6 05:01:20 2006
From: tom at memestreams.net (tom at memestreams.net)
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 22:01:20 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Great, here are some ideas...
Message-ID: <20060705220120.c9edd0a9cdb42be9a023c68d64c34aae.abbd322d4c.wbe@email.secureserver.net>

I'm very excited to see something like this taking root. Its an idea that I've been thinking about for a few years. Wikia has the resources to actually pull it off. 

I think that a lack of good information resources has a huge impact on politics, particularly local politics, in many regions in the United States. I used to live in California. Before each election I received a Voter Information Guide in the mail which detailed all of the races and referenda items that would appear on the ballot. Each candidate was given space to explain themselves and their positions, and each ballot item allowed space for the text of the item, a pro and con view, as well as pro's response to con and con's response to pro. The result was that I had a reasonable set of data at my disposal when I went into the ballot box on election day. 

Living now in Georgia the situation is quite different. Local news organizations sponsor a non-partisan guide put together by the League of Woman Voters, but many people don't know about it, it only covers some of the races and candidates, and some of the information is limited. They just don't have the resources to put out a guide as complete as the one that California produces. 

The result is that you go into the ballot box and there are many local offices that you're asked to vote on that you know nothing about, and you only get brief information about referenda items. I think people frequently choose candidates in such races whose names sound familiar, which more often then not is the product of pure marketing. Signs hammered into street corners don't tell you anything about the kind of government you're likely to get from a particular candidate. 

People who haven't had access to good information in advance of an election don't really know what they are missing. Partisanship is what fills the information vacuum. If you don't have enough data to pick the candidate you end up picking the party instead, and as you become entrenched in your party your neuter your own ability to influence the process. If candidates know you'll never vote for the other party they don't need to worry about your specific interests as much. They court people who are up for grabs. 

The National Conference of State Legislatures has a website up about Voter Information Guides. (http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legman/elect/VoterInfo.htm) Only a few states have them, and few have detailed ones. I could try to convince my state to adopt one, (http://www.georgia-voter.info/) but they are expensive, and its challenging to get a large number of entrenched politicians to agree to spend the people's money on a tool that undermines their ability to get elected on the basis of pure marketing. It might be possible, but it requires more time and resources then I have at my disposal and it doesn't do anything to help other states. 

There are some Internet resources that currently exist, such as Project Vote-Smart (http://www.vote-smart.org/). However, I have some criticisms of it. Its an important, useful resource, but its more valuable to researchers then to regular voters in my opinion. They seem to do a good job of providing either too much information or not enough. Few politicians have agreed to fill out their position quiz, and they seem afraid to provide summary information about candidate positions in any other way. There is a wealth of data up there about voting records and the like, but this information requires a lot of time and effort to mine. I also found their coverage of local referenda lacking.

A wiki based voter information guide has several advantages: 
1. Its (relatively) cheap. Each state doesn't have to pony up millions to support it right off the bat.  
2. Its local. People living in your own district can provide informed data about candidates and ballot items.
3. Its global. It has the potential to serve people in Democratic states all over the world. If it fosters effective dialog about issues, it might serve as an example to people living in less Democractic states.  
4. Its open. The people are really in control of the focus of the message. Politicians, the media, and special interests take a back seat. 
5. Its not afraid. Due to their collective editorial process, wikis can provide concise, easy to read information about candidate positions and referenda items without being hampered by the need that single author information sources have to establish a strict, structural means of demonstrating objectivity.   

However, it also presents a number of architectural challenges beyond the simple matter of installing MediaWiki and giving it a domain name. 

U.S. voters would benefit from being able to enter in their ZIP+4 code and get a list of the districts they are in so that they can find out what is going to be on their local ballot. The basic information correlating ZIP+4 codes to local, state, and federal districts is available, but it can cost tens of thousands of dollars, and must be regularly updated due to constant redistricting. I THINK Project Vote-Smart's data is donated to them by one of the service providers that compiles it. Perhaps if this project reached similar stature that it could also attract such a donation. However, some software development would be needed to pull that data from CSV files into the database, make it searchable, and tie the search results back to editable wiki pages for each of the various districts and the ballot items for those districts. Of course, adding other countries into the mix involves additional complexity and expense, only truely known to those who are active participants in each country's system. 

In addition, there lies the concern that political science is an oxymoron. Politics is an environment in which people will have partisan and economic interests in abusing an open information resource in order to mislead  readers. I think that few environments exist in which abuse management in the wiki model will be put to a greater test. It probably makes sense to consider strategies for abuse management early on. I think I recall that Presidential candidate pages in wikipedia were simply locked down prior to the 2004 U.S. election in order to prevent vandalism from impacting readers. Is this strategy going to scale effectively, or are new ideas needed? 

Good luck with this project!
Tom Cross


From mcoupland at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 05:29:59 2006
From: mcoupland at gmail.com (Michael Coupland)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 22:29:59 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
Message-ID: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings all.

Here's an initial list of thoughts, concerns, and ideas I've come up with.
Campaigns being a Wiki, I realize that some of these are things that I could
just go do on my own, but it seems worthwhile to post them here since
they're a bit higher level, and I'd like to hear what others have to say
before rooting around too much. (Not to mention I'm probably not familiar
enough with Wikis to do it all properly...)

- The direction that Campaigns seems to have started in, and what I'd like
to see (among other potential functions) is to act as a clearinghouse for
information regarding various political topics. For any given issue, it
seems that there should be a few standard sections: off the top of my head
I'd like to see
     "The Issue" - an unbiased nonpartisan overview (perhaps a summary of a
relevant Wikipedia article?)
     "Viewpoints" - summaries of the major opinions on the issue
     "Action" - information about prior, pending, and future relevant
legislation etc.
     "Resources" - links to outside sources of information, ways to contact
major players involved (companies, congresspeople)

- To avoid ping-pongy and hard to follow arguments, it might make sense to
encourage some sort of standard argumentative form, eg. in a given
discussion follow something like a Lincoln-Douglas form, where each side has
a limited number of rebuttals. The California voter information guide Tom
Cross just mentioned seems to have employed this approach.

- It would probably be helpful to have a big link to a "Guide to Reasoned
Discourse" on the front page, and a small link on every page. This might
help reduce flaming.

- As Tom mentioned, I know Wikipedia has had problems with vandalism on
topics that are "controversial." Unfortunately, most pages on Campaigns are
likely to fall under that classification, so special handling by
administrators might not be an effective solution. Is there a meta-page in
Wikipedia discussing the decisions they made and what other options there
may be?

- I've always admired the site http://www.theyworkforyou.com/ and the way it
tries to publicize some of the workings of the British government. It's
probably a good source of inspiration for Campaigns.

- Given the phrasing of the mission statement, I have been assuming that
this is (for now at least) intended for politics in the United States (and
relevant international topics...) While I'm all for international discourse,
I would expect such wide scope is likely to result in chaos. I would propose
starting off with an restriction to US politics. (Parallel wikis for other
countries would be suitable, just as Wikipedia has branched into many
languages.)

I'd love to hear comments on / criticism of the above topics. Thanks!

   Michael


PS. As with Tom, I feel obligated to give a shout out to BoingBoing for
leading me here.
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From bboston at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 16:55:40 2006
From: bboston at gmail.com (bruce boston)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 09:55:40 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder if we couldn't use a set of forums that went along with the
Wiki.  Wikis seem to do a great job of documenting information, but seem
over complicated for a simple topic debate.  Forums on the other hand are
great for documenting a conversation, and encouraging input in all forms and
from many people.

Just a thought.

-bruce


On 7/5/06, Michael Coupland <mcoupland at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Greetings all.
>
> Here's an initial list of thoughts, concerns, and ideas I've come up with.
> Campaigns being a Wiki, I realize that some of these are things that I could
> just go do on my own, but it seems worthwhile to post them here since
> they're a bit higher level, and I'd like to hear what others have to say
> before rooting around too much. (Not to mention I'm probably not familiar
> enough with Wikis to do it all properly...)
>
> - The direction that Campaigns seems to have started in, and what I'd like
> to see (among other potential functions) is to act as a clearinghouse for
> information regarding various political topics. For any given issue, it
> seems that there should be a few standard sections: off the top of my head
> I'd like to see
>      "The Issue" - an unbiased nonpartisan overview (perhaps a summary of
> a relevant Wikipedia article?)
>      "Viewpoints" - summaries of the major opinions on the issue
>      "Action" - information about prior, pending, and future relevant
> legislation etc.
>      "Resources" - links to outside sources of information, ways to
> contact major players involved (companies, congresspeople)
>
> - To avoid ping-pongy and hard to follow arguments, it might make sense to
> encourage some sort of standard argumentative form, eg. in a given
> discussion follow something like a Lincoln-Douglas form, where each side has
> a limited number of rebuttals. The California voter information guide Tom
> Cross just mentioned seems to have employed this approach.
>
> - It would probably be helpful to have a big link to a "Guide to Reasoned
> Discourse" on the front page, and a small link on every page. This might
> help reduce flaming.
>
> - As Tom mentioned, I know Wikipedia has had problems with vandalism on
> topics that are "controversial." Unfortunately, most pages on Campaigns are
> likely to fall under that classification, so special handling by
> administrators might not be an effective solution. Is there a meta-page in
> Wikipedia discussing the decisions they made and what other options there
> may be?
>
> - I've always admired the site http://www.theyworkforyou.com/ and the way
> it tries to publicize some of the workings of the British government. It's
> probably a good source of inspiration for Campaigns.
>
> - Given the phrasing of the mission statement, I have been assuming that
> this is (for now at least) intended for politics in the United States (and
> relevant international topics...) While I'm all for international discourse,
> I would expect such wide scope is likely to result in chaos. I would propose
> starting off with an restriction to US politics. (Parallel wikis for other
> countries would be suitable, just as Wikipedia has branched into many
> languages.)
>
> I'd love to hear comments on / criticism of the above topics. Thanks!
>
>
>    Michael
>
>
> PS. As with Tom, I feel obligated to give a shout out to BoingBoing for
> leading me here.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>


-- 
bruce boston
bboston at gmail.com
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From beesley at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 17:02:11 2006
From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 03:02:11 +1000
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/06, bruce boston <bboston at gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if we couldn't use a set of forums that went along with the Wiki.

We do have a wiki-based forum at
http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:The_Soapbox - the idea is
combine the advantages of a forum with those of a wiki. I'd be
interested to know what everyone thinks of it, especially those people
new to wikis. Is it much harder to use than the forums you're used to?

Angela.

-- 
Angela Beesley
Wikia.com


From ahynes1 at optonline.net  Thu Jul  6 17:45:50 2006
From: ahynes1 at optonline.net (Aldon Hynes)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 13:45:50 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] A summary of some existing  political wikis
In-Reply-To: <20060706165545.41208B98567@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBLCBGBMCDKOAPLALJKEIHPHAA.ahynes1@optonline.net>

I would like to highlight a few different political wikis that are currently
up and running:

http://ctelection2006.pbwiki.com/

This is a wiki about the various campaigns in the Connecticut 2006 election
cycle.  It includes information about the Federal and State races.  The
section on the State House of Representatives is particularly good.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Congresspedia

Congresspedia is a project of the Sunlight Foundation and the Center for
Media and Democracy.  They provide information about members of Congress.

http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Main_Page

dkospedia : A project of the DailyKos community.  Presents a
left/progressive/liberal view of what is going on.

What else is out there?

Aldon



From george.murray at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 17:55:06 2006
From: george.murray at gmail.com (George Murray)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 13:55:06 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>

Angela,

I am new to contributing to Wikis and am interested in participating in
campaigns.wikia.com. I agree with the comment made about Wikis probably not
having the best functionality for debate. Forums certainly do have wikis
beat on that. However, forums come in a wide range of functions. For the
campaigns wikia I would suggest a forum kind of like digg.com's comments
section. Where fellow wiki contributors can rate a post on its value, and
posts of high value can rise and eventually be added to a wikia page with
the most valuable information skimmed from the forum discussion.

For instance you could have a forum "thread" tied to the debate of global
warming. Posts can have a thread heirarchy for organization. Poor posts can
be voted down and out. A post rating history is kept to make sure no one is
just rating down their opponents viewpoints. Wiki contributors cannot
re-write each others posts, but they can re-organize posts to create a more
distilled discussion. The highest level of talking points can be the wiki
page.

I am new to contributing to wikis so forgive me if my lingo is not on
target, but I hope that I have gotten my point across. The merging of a
flowing participatory forum functionality with the opening of wikis can
distill topics and present the basics for visitors.

Thanks,
gmurray

On 7/6/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/7/06, bruce boston <bboston at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I wonder if we couldn't use a set of forums that went along with the
> Wiki.
>
> We do have a wiki-based forum at
> http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:The_Soapbox - the idea is
> combine the advantages of a forum with those of a wiki. I'd be
> interested to know what everyone thinks of it, especially those people
> new to wikis. Is it much harder to use than the forums you're used to?
>
> Angela.
>
> --
> Angela Beesley
> Wikia.com
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From ed.rodgers at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 18:05:24 2006
From: ed.rodgers at gmail.com (Ed Rodgers)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:05:24 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
Message-ID: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>

I'm very happy as well that boing boing pointed me to this wiki.  It's
yet another way to further progressive thought using the tools at our
disposal.  I'm the type that normally doesnt send out mass emails on
anything, but after reading the mission statement, i opened up the
address book and made known to all my contacts of this new development
and alternative forum for political information.

along the broader spectrum of international thought (as i was assuming
the campaign wiki is designed with american politics as the main
focus), there is already an idea based on logic on how a world could
operate outside of politics, http://www.highintelligence.com/ thinking
like a programmer (my profession) makes public policy become much more
black and white.

Thanks
Ed


From jpmahoney at mindspring.com  Thu Jul  6 18:20:36 2006
From: jpmahoney at mindspring.com (Joe Mahoney)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 12:20:36 -0600
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Campaigns Wikia abuse' concerns?
Message-ID: <p06210215c0d3021f9db4@[192.168.0.101]>

Greetings, A quick thought...


Introducing the CampaignWikia, Jimmy Wales wrote:

"I am launching today a new Wikia website aimed at being a central 
meeting ground for people on all sides of the political spectrum who 
think that it is time for politics to become more participatory, and 
more intelligent."


That is a noble thought, but are there concerns that "political 
operatives," staff, volunteers or just very enthusiastic supporters 
that don't grasp the wiki philosophy, would become embroiled in 
change wars over pages? Could this lead to a high number of pages 
being protected.

Just pulling a random page (by clicking the random page link!)

http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Pete_Ashdown

In this very brief page, are there not points that could be "edited 
mercilessly" by Mr. Ashdown's opponent's supporters.

How can this be discouraged or prevented? Or more positively, how can 
constructive and useful editing be encouraged in what I am assuming 
will be a very contentious arena.

Maybe I'm missing the bigger picture. Have I misunderstood the intent 
of this wiki?

Joe
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From stpeter at jabber.org  Thu Jul  6 18:11:12 2006
From: stpeter at jabber.org (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 12:11:12 -0600
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>

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Ed Rodgers wrote:
> I'm very happy as well that boing boing pointed me to this wiki.  It's
> yet another way to further progressive thought using the tools at our
> disposal.  

My sense from the mission statement Jimbo wrote is that we're trying to
open up the political process and make the political debate more
objective -- not that we're trying to further progressive, liberal,
libertarian, conservative, green, socialist, communist (etc.) thought or
ideology or movements.

Peter

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From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 18:29:34 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 11:29:34 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] A summary of some existing political wikis
In-Reply-To: <NFBBLCBGBMCDKOAPLALJKEIHPHAA.ahynes1@optonline.net>
References: <20060706165545.41208B98567@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
	<NFBBLCBGBMCDKOAPLALJKEIHPHAA.ahynes1@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607061129q79c08973gbffd3186164adcee@mail.gmail.com>

left.wikia.com
rightwing.wikia.com

wikia.com/wiki/Politics:Portal has the complete list.  There's a bunch of
them.

Chad


On 7/6/06, Aldon Hynes <ahynes1 at optonline.net> wrote:
>
> I would like to highlight a few different political wikis that are
> currently
> up and running:
>
> http://ctelection2006.pbwiki.com/
>
> This is a wiki about the various campaigns in the Connecticut 2006
> election
> cycle.  It includes information about the Federal and State races.  The
> section on the State House of Representatives is particularly good.
>
> http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Congresspedia
>
> Congresspedia is a project of the Sunlight Foundation and the Center for
> Media and Democracy.  They provide information about members of Congress.
>
> http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Main_Page
>
> dkospedia : A project of the DailyKos community.  Presents a
> left/progressive/liberal view of what is going on.
>
> What else is out there?
>
> Aldon
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>



-- 
Chad Lupkes
Democracy for Washington
http://www.democracyforwashington.com
Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
http://pdcw.org

If Democrats have a pre-911 view of the world, Republicans have a pre-July
4th view of the world.  Go back to King George, shall we?  Not while I'm
still breathing.

The purpose of a political party is to turn the views and values of its
members into public policy. - Russel Wallace, Democracy for Wisconsin

Blah, blah, blah!!!  What do we do about it!!

Anyone want a roll-top desk?
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/fur/178052982.html
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From okarht at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 18:25:46 2006
From: okarht at gmail.com (Lee Crane)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 13:25:46 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] My 2 cents
Message-ID: <7959c38a0607061125v2e02899cw312ad4b5a7a1a24f@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with Michael's general layout plan (Issue, Viewpoint, etc.).  The
one thing I would add would be pages for candidates that included (among
other things) evaluations of their campaign material.  For example, on the
page for Candidate A you would find transcripts of his/her speeches and
advertisments.  If in a speech they said "GDP has increased X percent while
I've been in office" you could click on the phrase and find the source of
the statistic and a discussion of alternative statistics and their
accuracy.  The wiki format would be good for this because everybody can add
a bit about their personal favorite economic indicator.  Hopefully the page
would allow readers to assess the validity of the candidate's statement on
their own rather than being told it was right or wrong.

For the debate section, I would like to see something like Micheal's
limited-response Lincoln-Douglas thing combined with George Murray's voting
scheme so you would see the most insightful and polished debates first.
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From jon.lebkowsky at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 18:35:57 2006
From: jon.lebkowsky at gmail.com (Jon Lebkowsky)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 13:35:57 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Campaigns Wikia abuse' concerns?
In-Reply-To: <p06210215c0d3021f9db4@192.168.0.101>
References: <p06210215c0d3021f9db4@192.168.0.101>
Message-ID: <f9688f830607061135v102ffd84t6ebdb02f4adb6a9b@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/6/06, Joe Mahoney <jpmahoney at mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> How can this be discouraged or prevented? Or more positively, how can
> constructive and useful editing be encouraged in what I am assuming will be
> a very contentious arena.
>
> Maybe I'm missing the bigger picture. Have I misunderstood the intent of
> this wiki?
>

Nobody said this would be easy. We'll probably have struggles, as they do at
Wikipedia, but that's an inherent part of transformation, I think.


-- 
Jon Lebkowsky
web strategy | architecture | user experience
for-profit: http://polycot.com
nonprofit: http://assistorg.org
blog: http://weblogsky.com
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From djarb at highenergymagic.org  Thu Jul  6 18:38:00 2006
From: djarb at highenergymagic.org (Daniel Arbuckle)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 11:38:00 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
Message-ID: <ddd408be0607061137g556144b6lfd8b2f9b08cfc120@mail.gmail.com>

Or perhaps we're trying to further all of them, to the extent that providing
an informative forum and debate between the partisans of each ideology
benefits all of them.

On 7/6/06, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at jabber.org> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Ed Rodgers wrote:
> > I'm very happy as well that boing boing pointed me to this wiki.  It's
> > yet another way to further progressive thought using the tools at our
> > disposal.
>
> My sense from the mission statement Jimbo wrote is that we're trying to
> open up the political process and make the political debate more
> objective -- not that we're trying to further progressive, liberal,
> libertarian, conservative, green, socialist, communist (etc.) thought or
> ideology or movements.
>
> Peter
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFErVJANF1RSzyt3NURAsuAAKDJBZXNrGt9PpG4MOfLMCQeeAC4YACgw8Cv
> vxEaYEMCl92elW7kUs5oubE=
> =hzWb
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
>
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From mark.slater at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 18:38:08 2006
From: mark.slater at gmail.com (Mark Slater)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 20:38:08 +0200
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Campaigns Wikia abuse' concerns?
In-Reply-To: <p06210215c0d3021f9db4@192.168.0.101>
References: <p06210215c0d3021f9db4@192.168.0.101>
Message-ID: <54760dab0607061138w3addb6b0i5269f92120535fa6@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Joe

On 7/6/06, Joe Mahoney <jpmahoney at mindspring.com> wrote:

> How can this be discouraged or prevented? Or more positively, how can
> constructive and useful editing be encouraged in what I am assuming will be
> a very contentious arena.

I guess if push comes to shove and it's quite obvious that such
editing is happening, you have choices, from offering a sharp-worded
"if you are employed by a politician or an affiliated association,
please read this nasty legalese disclaimer before editing", all the
way to "if you are employed by a politican, you are barred from
editing this wiki and if we find out that you're doing it anyway,
we'll sue you!".

Though I doubt neither of those possibilities are what Jim Wales had in mind...

-- 
mark


From ed.rodgers at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 18:39:29 2006
From: ed.rodgers at gmail.com (Ed Rodgers)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:39:29 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
Message-ID: <e23444c80607061139y21420d69wf4f040e924ecc5e2@mail.gmail.com>

i think you misunderstood my meaning of progressive.

by progressive i mean moving beyond the process currently in place by
utilizing tools available to us in order to better understand
political and governmental decisions.

i wasnt saying 'go out and buy every howard zinn book, now!' :)

and now we see one of the drawbacks to internet based discussion -
comprehension of rhetoric.

we are progressing past television advertisements
we are progressing to form an online community of thought contributors
we are progressing toward a focus on the topics at hand
it is a progressive movement, label it wikigressive so that it may not
be misconstrued.

stay tuned; same discussion to follow on democratic vs democratic.

On 7/6/06, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at jabber.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Ed Rodgers wrote:
> > I'm very happy as well that boing boing pointed me to this wiki.  It's
> > yet another way to further progressive thought using the tools at our
> > disposal.
>
> My sense from the mission statement Jimbo wrote is that we're trying to
> open up the political process and make the political debate more
> objective -- not that we're trying to further progressive, liberal,
> libertarian, conservative, green, socialist, communist (etc.) thought or
> ideology or movements.
>
> Peter
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFErVJANF1RSzyt3NURAsuAAKDJBZXNrGt9PpG4MOfLMCQeeAC4YACgw8Cv
> vxEaYEMCl92elW7kUs5oubE=
> =hzWb
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
>


From lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 18:48:15 2006
From: lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com (Lord Voldemort)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:48:15 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Campaigns Wikia abuse' concerns?
In-Reply-To: <54760dab0607061138w3addb6b0i5269f92120535fa6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06210215c0d3021f9db4@192.168.0.101>
	<54760dab0607061138w3addb6b0i5269f92120535fa6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa62d5b70607061148k1e36398cq640e85169d0dcb06@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/6/06, Mark Slater <mark.slater at gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess if push comes to shove and it's quite obvious that such
> editing is happening, you have choices, from offering a sharp-worded
> "if you are employed by a politician or an affiliated association,
> please read this nasty legalese disclaimer before editing", all the
> way to "if you are employed by a politican, you are barred from
> editing this wiki and if we find out that you're doing it anyway,
> we'll sue you!".
>
> Though I doubt neither of those possibilities are what Jim Wales had in mind...

Whoa, definitely not.  As Kat explicitly states that people working
within a candidate's campaign should be involved.  Did someone miss
that part on the Draft policies page?  ;-)  We just have to be
vigilant and revert any egregious mistakes they may implement on their
opponent's pages.  And besides, don't you think it would look bad if
they were caught acting as saboteurs on their opponent's pages? :-)
--LV


From stpeter at jabber.org  Thu Jul  6 18:56:27 2006
From: stpeter at jabber.org (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 12:56:27 -0600
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <e23444c80607061139y21420d69wf4f040e924ecc5e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
	<e23444c80607061139y21420d69wf4f040e924ecc5e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AD5CDB.5020203@jabber.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sure, I can go for that. After all, I consider myself a progressive
libertarian. ;-)

To me, blogs and wikis are like modern pamphlets. It was the
pamphleteers who, more than anyone, sowed the mental seeds for the
American Revolution. Maybe we can use the modern tools at our disposal
to also build sometime better, more participatory, more open, more free.

Peter

Ed Rodgers wrote:
> i think you misunderstood my meaning of progressive.
> 
> by progressive i mean moving beyond the process currently in place by
> utilizing tools available to us in order to better understand
> political and governmental decisions.
> 
> i wasnt saying 'go out and buy every howard zinn book, now!' :)
> 
> and now we see one of the drawbacks to internet based discussion -
> comprehension of rhetoric.
> 
> we are progressing past television advertisements
> we are progressing to form an online community of thought contributors
> we are progressing toward a focus on the topics at hand
> it is a progressive movement, label it wikigressive so that it may not
> be misconstrued.
> 
> stay tuned; same discussion to follow on democratic vs democratic.
> 
> On 7/6/06, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at jabber.org> wrote:
> Ed Rodgers wrote:
>> I'm very happy as well that boing boing pointed me to this wiki.  It's
>> yet another way to further progressive thought using the tools at our
>> disposal.
> 
> My sense from the mission statement Jimbo wrote is that we're trying to
> open up the political process and make the political debate more
> objective -- not that we're trying to further progressive, liberal,
> libertarian, conservative, green, socialist, communist (etc.) thought or
> ideology or movements.
> 
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From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 18:59:35 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 11:59:35 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <e23444c80607061139y21420d69wf4f040e924ecc5e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
	<e23444c80607061139y21420d69wf4f040e924ecc5e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607061159lc3f6c82v5187b44599bb5c2e@mail.gmail.com>

Something this wiki is going to be able to do is define our terms for the
ongoing discussion.  And the people who show up and make the edits will do
the defining instead of paid political operatives looking to spin things one
direction or the other.

Chad


On 7/6/06, Ed Rodgers <ed.rodgers at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> i think you misunderstood my meaning of progressive.
>
> by progressive i mean moving beyond the process currently in place by
> utilizing tools available to us in order to better understand
> political and governmental decisions.
>
> i wasnt saying 'go out and buy every howard zinn book, now!' :)
>
> and now we see one of the drawbacks to internet based discussion -
> comprehension of rhetoric.
>
> we are progressing past television advertisements
> we are progressing to form an online community of thought contributors
> we are progressing toward a focus on the topics at hand
> it is a progressive movement, label it wikigressive so that it may not
> be misconstrued.
>
> stay tuned; same discussion to follow on democratic vs democratic.
>
> On 7/6/06, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at jabber.org> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Ed Rodgers wrote:
> > > I'm very happy as well that boing boing pointed me to this wiki.  It's
> > > yet another way to further progressive thought using the tools at our
> > > disposal.
> >
> > My sense from the mission statement Jimbo wrote is that we're trying to
> > open up the political process and make the political debate more
> > objective -- not that we're trying to further progressive, liberal,
> > libertarian, conservative, green, socialist, communist (etc.) thought or
> > ideology or movements.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)
> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> >
> > iD8DBQFErVJANF1RSzyt3NURAsuAAKDJBZXNrGt9PpG4MOfLMCQeeAC4YACgw8Cv
> > vxEaYEMCl92elW7kUs5oubE=
> > =hzWb
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>



-- 
Chad Lupkes
Democracy for Washington
http://www.democracyforwashington.com
Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
http://pdcw.org

If Democrats have a pre-911 view of the world, Republicans have a pre-July
4th view of the world.  Go back to King George, shall we?  Not while I'm
still breathing.

The purpose of a political party is to turn the views and values of its
members into public policy. - Russel Wallace, Democracy for Wisconsin

Blah, blah, blah!!!  What do we do about it!!

Anyone want a roll-top desk?
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/fur/178052982.html
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From dniel9 at mac.com  Thu Jul  6 18:59:27 2006
From: dniel9 at mac.com (Neil Pistol)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:59:27 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Campaigns
Message-ID: <8D1C722F-B7FD-4721-9AEC-615F4114894F@mac.com>

I became ecstatic once I read the Campaigns Mission Statement, for  
participatory politics is what I believe democracy is truly about. I  
agree with those of you who encourage a bipartisan organization of  
topics. I would hope that we can get past the political party  
methodology in order to discuss the issues themselves. I like the  
rating system of certain posts, to help find the best of the best,  
but am concerned of biases flooding the polls and blocking the  
opposition. One idea is to geographically divide the site, similar to  
Craigslist.org, and then the highly rated posts can be 'upgraded' to  
a wider, national audience.

Neil


From lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 19:06:58 2006
From: lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com (Lord Voldemort)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:06:58 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607061159lc3f6c82v5187b44599bb5c2e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
	<e23444c80607061139y21420d69wf4f040e924ecc5e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0607061159lc3f6c82v5187b44599bb5c2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa62d5b70607061206i4e96c3ceh4846deee13601d7d@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/6/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
> --
> Chad Lupkes
> Democracy for Washington
> http://www.democracyforwashington.com
> Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
> http://pdcw.org
>
> If Democrats have a pre-911 view of the world, Republicans have a pre-July
> 4th view of the world.  Go back to King George, shall we?  Not while I'm
> still breathing.
>
> The purpose of a political party is to turn the views and values of its
> members into public policy. - Russel Wallace, Democracy for Wisconsin
>
> Blah, blah, blah!!!  What do we do about it!!
>
> Anyone want a roll-top desk?
> http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/fur/178052982.html

I just wanna know if you wouldn't mind taking all of the spam out of
your signature if you're going to continue to post here.  One link or
something would be fine, but your sig is longer than most of your
comments at this point.  Thanks.  --LV


From jbaswell at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 19:07:26 2006
From: jbaswell at gmail.com (Jamie Baswell)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:07:26 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] My 2 cents
Message-ID: <fbb28f290607061207s7b5ccfe0y95919d4f95e2098a@mail.gmail.com>

I think the wiki portion should be as factual as possible.

What I'd love to see:

Name

Biography
-- Written by himself or supporters. Not a political history, which will be
covered later, but a simple history, where they're from, what schools they
attended, generic stuff like that.

Voting Record
-- List of voting history, if any.  Each entry can be a simple item number
and how they voted.  Each item number can itself be a link to a different
Wiki entry containing a summary of the bill and what various candidates have
said about it, if anything.


For example:

[Bill 90210] - Voted NO
"I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
residents to replace their cars with penguins." - Mr. Candidate, New York
Times interview, 1997
[Bill OU812] - Voted YES
"I voted yes on this because I think it's important to save the Alaska
Salmon." - Mr. Candidate, Campaign Wikia, 2006


If you click on [Bill 90210], you should get at least a brief summary of
what it was, and Mr. Candidate's comments should be echoed on that page,
along with the comments of every other candidate who had anything to say
about it.

So we can see what Mr. Candidate said about it on his page or we can click
on the item and see what everyone said about it.

This list should be a community effort, not just up to the campaigner to
post the ones he wants to popularize.  If he voted NO on something 30 years
ago and wants to comment about how he would vote YES now if given a chance,
he or his supporters can add comments to that effect, but the fact that he
did vote NO should remain on the page.


Other sections could include memorable quotes (with references) links to
speeches, debate transcripts, etc.


The bottom line for me is I would love to be able to see that Joe Blow is
running for governor or whatever, then go here and type "Joe Blow" and see a
list of things he's voted on in the past, what those things actually were
about, anything he had to say about it, etc.

Comments from random people should be left to the forums.  Comments from
opponets should be made on their own page, not here.

e.g.
 [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
"I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
residents to replace their cars with penguins." - Mr. Candidate, 1997
"You voted no because you fear change and you're racist against penguins." -
Mr. Opponet, 2006

The second comment should be deleted, since creating a Debate Wiki would
just be ugly.  Mr. Opponet can write a speech about it and link that
seperately on his own page if he'd like.

Similarly:
 [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
"I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
residents to replace their cars with penguins.  Mr. Opponet has no respect
for the rights of modern Californians to not be subjected to the daily abuse
of penguins." - Mr. Candidate, 1997

That should be trimmed down to read as it was before.  The second sentence
is not directly relevant to why he voted NO and just invites a mid-wiki
flamewar.

The tighter we keep it to the relevant facts, I think, the better.
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From schnippy at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 19:14:38 2006
From: schnippy at gmail.com (Greg Schnippel)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:14:38 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
Message-ID: <331548370607061214o6c9eb4e4v32bf1d6723c800c3@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/6/06, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at jabber.org> wrote:

> My sense from the mission statement Jimbo wrote is that we're trying to
> open up the political process and make the political debate more
> objective -- not that we're trying to further progressive, liberal,
> libertarian, conservative, green, socialist, communist (etc.) thought or
> ideology or movements.

I got the opposite sense from the mission statement -- I assumed that
this would become a place for people aligned with one party or another
to gather and refine their own party's platform out in the open. The
focus of the site and the mission statement on 'political campaigns'
as opposed to issues meant to me that this would be a forum for
deciding what the national parties platform on 'X' should be or how
Candidate 'Y' should structure their platform.

Either way is exciting and worldchanging, but it seems to me that this
is the crucial question in the beginning stages of this project -
whether or not it should split up into sub-platforms based on
political leanings or try and speak for everyone. Trying to create a
'national statement' would definitely be harder as there seem to be
some fundamental points of disagreement on both sides.

- Greg


From jeenaone at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 19:15:43 2006
From: jeenaone at gmail.com (Genghis Conn)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:15:43 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Connecting people with information
Message-ID: <97dfe23a0607061215n5f001ec3kb4c66dd104699501@mail.gmail.com>

The withdrawal of newspaper coverage from local political races and events
gives this wiki a perfect window of opportunity. More and more people are
looking online for political information (my own site stats tell me that)
and something like this could become an easier, less filtered way to connect
people with that information.

Right now, most of the political/campaign information online comes through
campaign controlled sites instead of third party sites.

It would be great to have a way to generate comparisons on certain issues.
For example, select an issue (say, property taxes) and limit to your
district, and see what positions all the candidates in that area have on it.

Chris Bigelow
Enfield, CT
http://connecticutlocalpolitics.blogspot.com
http://ctelection2006.pbwiki.com
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From george.murray at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 19:21:20 2006
From: george.murray at gmail.com (George Murray)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:21:20 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607061159lc3f6c82v5187b44599bb5c2e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
	<e23444c80607061139y21420d69wf4f040e924ecc5e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0607061159lc3f6c82v5187b44599bb5c2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3fdb2c400607061221v7874bbbawc39d5220f38cfb98@mail.gmail.com>

One of my concerns with the current political process is the use of framing
[see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(communication_theory) ] and
buzzwords to redefine the problems rather than solve them.

Campaigns Wikia could be a great way to "cut through" the redefinition these
politicians do by taking whatever the latest buzzwords are and having an
up-to-date record of their use and redefinition over time.

Just a thought,
-gmurray

On 7/6/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Something this wiki is going to be able to do is define our terms for the
> ongoing discussion.  And the people who show up and make the edits will do
> the defining instead of paid political operatives looking to spin things one
> direction or the other.
>
> Chad
>
>
> On 7/6/06, Ed Rodgers <ed.rodgers at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > i think you misunderstood my meaning of progressive.
> >
> > by progressive i mean moving beyond the process currently in place by
> > utilizing tools available to us in order to better understand
> > political and governmental decisions.
> >
> > i wasnt saying 'go out and buy every howard zinn book, now!' :)
> >
> > and now we see one of the drawbacks to internet based discussion -
> > comprehension of rhetoric.
> >
> > we are progressing past television advertisements
> > we are progressing to form an online community of thought contributors
> > we are progressing toward a focus on the topics at hand
> > it is a progressive movement, label it wikigressive so that it may not
> > be misconstrued.
> >
> > stay tuned; same discussion to follow on democratic vs democratic.
> >
> > On 7/6/06, Peter Saint-Andre < stpeter at jabber.org> wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > Ed Rodgers wrote:
> > > > I'm very happy as well that boing boing pointed me to this
> > wiki.  It's
> > > > yet another way to further progressive thought using the tools at
> > our
> > > > disposal.
> > >
> > > My sense from the mission statement Jimbo wrote is that we're trying
> > to
> > > open up the political process and make the political debate more
> > > objective -- not that we're trying to further progressive, liberal,
> > > libertarian, conservative, green, socialist, communist (etc.) thought
> > or
> > > ideology or movements.
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)
> > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> > >
> > > iD8DBQFErVJANF1RSzyt3NURAsuAAKDJBZXNrGt9PpG4MOfLMCQeeAC4YACgw8Cv
> > > vxEaYEMCl92elW7kUs5oubE=
> > > =hzWb
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Chad Lupkes
> Democracy for Washington
> http://www.democracyforwashington.com
> Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
> http://pdcw.org
>
> If Democrats have a pre-911 view of the world, Republicans have a pre-July
> 4th view of the world.  Go back to King George, shall we?  Not while I'm
> still breathing.
>
> The purpose of a political party is to turn the views and values of its
> members into public policy. - Russel Wallace, Democracy for Wisconsin
>
> Blah, blah, blah!!!  What do we do about it!!
>
> Anyone want a roll-top desk?
> http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/fur/178052982.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
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From george.murray at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 19:24:21 2006
From: george.murray at gmail.com (George Murray)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:24:21 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Campaigns
In-Reply-To: <8D1C722F-B7FD-4721-9AEC-615F4114894F@mac.com>
References: <8D1C722F-B7FD-4721-9AEC-615F4114894F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <3fdb2c400607061224n4a6e4a79ua963515c0c1676ea@mail.gmail.com>

>
> but am concerned of biases flooding the polls and blocking the
> opposition.


This could be solved by having another level of editing to "rate the
raters". Show a users rating history over time to find any themes and
hopefully sort out the bad apples.


-gmurray



On 7/6/06, Neil Pistol <dniel9 at mac.com> wrote:
>
> I became ecstatic once I read the Campaigns Mission Statement, for
> participatory politics is what I believe democracy is truly about. I
> agree with those of you who encourage a bipartisan organization of
> topics. I would hope that we can get past the political party
> methodology in order to discuss the issues themselves. I like the
> rating system of certain posts, to help find the best of the best,
> but am concerned of biases flooding the polls and blocking the
> opposition. One idea is to geographically divide the site, similar to
> Craigslist.org, and then the highly rated posts can be 'upgraded' to
> a wider, national audience.
>
> Neil
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From stpeter at jabber.org  Thu Jul  6 19:31:34 2006
From: stpeter at jabber.org (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 13:31:34 -0600
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Connecting people with information
In-Reply-To: <97dfe23a0607061215n5f001ec3kb4c66dd104699501@mail.gmail.com>
References: <97dfe23a0607061215n5f001ec3kb4c66dd104699501@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AD6516.6010909@jabber.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Well, some folks predict the end of the newspaper industry before long,
so something will need to fill the void. :-)

Providing all that local coverage will be a lot of work, but that's what
dedicated volunteers are for, I suppose.

Peter

Genghis Conn wrote:
> The withdrawal of newspaper coverage from local political races and
> events gives this wiki a perfect window of opportunity. More and more
> people are looking online for political information (my own site stats
> tell me that) and something like this could become an easier, less
> filtered way to connect people with that information.
> 
> Right now, most of the political/campaign information online comes
> through campaign controlled sites instead of third party sites.
> 
> It would be great to have a way to generate comparisons on certain
> issues. For example, select an issue (say, property taxes) and limit to
> your district, and see what positions all the candidates in that area
> have on it.
> 
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From ed.rodgers at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 19:36:31 2006
From: ed.rodgers at gmail.com (Ed Rodgers)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:36:31 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Campaigns Wikia abuse' concerns?
In-Reply-To: <aa62d5b70607061148k1e36398cq640e85169d0dcb06@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06210215c0d3021f9db4@192.168.0.101>
	<54760dab0607061138w3addb6b0i5269f92120535fa6@mail.gmail.com>
	<aa62d5b70607061148k1e36398cq640e85169d0dcb06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e23444c80607061236l6e3a8042tb7096ac542613e79@mail.gmail.com>

this can also lead to the same problems i associate with legislature,
where wiki articles get so large that some misinformation will 'slip
through the cracks' .. where something looks good as a whole, but then
you slip in the 'riders' that turn the gold back into lead.

so therefore there needs to be a large collaboration of involved
persons outside the actual political arena to serve as the balance and
moderation of presented information.

this is our jobs, to get those we know involved as well to whatever
extent they are willing.  the campaign for campaign moderation.

On 7/6/06, Lord Voldemort <lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/6/06, Mark Slater <mark.slater at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I guess if push comes to shove and it's quite obvious that such
> > editing is happening, you have choices, from offering a sharp-worded
> > "if you are employed by a politician or an affiliated association,
> > please read this nasty legalese disclaimer before editing", all the
> > way to "if you are employed by a politican, you are barred from
> > editing this wiki and if we find out that you're doing it anyway,
> > we'll sue you!".
> >
> > Though I doubt neither of those possibilities are what Jim Wales had in mind...
>
> Whoa, definitely not.  As Kat explicitly states that people working
> within a candidate's campaign should be involved.  Did someone miss
> that part on the Draft policies page?  ;-)  We just have to be
> vigilant and revert any egregious mistakes they may implement on their
> opponent's pages.  And besides, don't you think it would look bad if
> they were caught acting as saboteurs on their opponent's pages? :-)
> --LV
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>


From stpeter at jabber.org  Thu Jul  6 19:41:02 2006
From: stpeter at jabber.org (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 13:41:02 -0600
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <331548370607061214o6c9eb4e4v32bf1d6723c800c3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
	<331548370607061214o6c9eb4e4v32bf1d6723c800c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AD674E.8000804@jabber.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Greg Schnippel wrote:
> On 7/6/06, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at jabber.org> wrote:
> 
>> My sense from the mission statement Jimbo wrote is that we're trying to
>> open up the political process and make the political debate more
>> objective -- not that we're trying to further progressive, liberal,
>> libertarian, conservative, green, socialist, communist (etc.) thought or
>> ideology or movements.
> 
> I got the opposite sense from the mission statement -- I assumed that
> this would become a place for people aligned with one party or another
> to gather and refine their own party's platform out in the open. 

Or, perhaps, an effort to move beyond the existing parties? As far as I
can see, many Americans feel politically homeless and do not like the
polarization of the political debate. I rather doubt that Americans are
as polarized as the parties are, and the parties are that way in large
measure (IMHO) because of gerrymandering and the resulting safe seats.

> The
> focus of the site and the mission statement on 'political campaigns'
> as opposed to issues meant to me that this would be a forum for
> deciding what the national parties platform on 'X' should be or how
> Candidate 'Y' should structure their platform.

I think the national parties (U.S.) have their own means for defining
their platforms. But the first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all nature of
American elections means that candidates are fairly entrepreneurial in
the U.S. (unlike most parliamentary systems, which more strongly enforce
party discipline). And there are many local offices for which elections
are typically non-partisan (city council and such). So a focus on issues
and candidates might be more productive than a focus on parties. Or so
it seems to me.

Peter
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From daneanderson at comcast.net  Thu Jul  6 19:33:43 2006
From: daneanderson at comcast.net (Dane Anderson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:33:43 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Great work!
Message-ID: <200607061933.k66JXaKV025492@smtp.unc.edu>

I think this it a fantastic forum for discussion and debate... 

 

We're doing a similar thing over at www.Unity08.com - but instead of just
talking about it, we're creating a party to make politicians become less
polarized!

 

I can't wait to start more of this discussion!

 

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From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 20:08:31 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 13:08:31 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] protection on front page
Message-ID: <801553ab0607061308s3dff2e73va7519fe6ea390948@mail.gmail.com>

Well, that didn't take long.  I just had to protect the front page from
multiple blanking attempts.  I've set it as protected from unregistered
users.  We'll see how long it takes for that to last before we have to go
Sysop only.

Chad Lupkes
Seattle
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From hubbird at efn.org  Thu Jul  6 19:50:02 2006
From: hubbird at efn.org (Ben Hubbird)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 12:50:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <3fdb2c400607061221v7874bbbawc39d5220f38cfb98@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
	<e23444c80607061139y21420d69wf4f040e924ecc5e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0607061159lc3f6c82v5187b44599bb5c2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061221v7874bbbawc39d5220f38cfb98@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4720.207.173.201.60.1152215402.squirrel@207.173.201.60>

I like this idea a lot. The more that this can be a roadmap to the
political landscape, rather than just another collection of billboards
along the way, the more valuable and important it will be. I don't think
this SHOULD be a forum for discussion of "issues", as issues are merely
those prepackaged, focus grouped items that poll well with a politician's
target demographic.

Politicians love issues (especially bivalent ones) because they are easy.
We should hate them because they insult our intelligence as citizens and
perpetuate the myth that we are divided by some impermeable ideological
barrier.

Seems like the questions we should be answering are not "Who's right,
who's wrong?" It should be abundantly clear to anyone who has even a
modest political awareness that NOBODY is "right".

We should instead ask: "What should politics look like, if not the current
system? How can we get there?"

A section on how campaigns are run might be a first step -- nothing
impacts the current shape of the political debate more than the dirty
games it takes to get into office.

What do y'all think?

Ben Hubbird

George Murray said:
> One of my concerns with the current political process is the use of
> framing
> [see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(communication_theory) ] and
> buzzwords to redefine the problems rather than solve them.
>
> Campaigns Wikia could be a great way to "cut through" the redefinition
> these
> politicians do by taking whatever the latest buzzwords are and having an
> up-to-date record of their use and redefinition over time.
>
> Just a thought,
> -gmurray
>
> On 7/6/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Something this wiki is going to be able to do is define our terms for
>> the
>> ongoing discussion.  And the people who show up and make the edits will
>> do
>> the defining instead of paid political operatives looking to spin things
>> one
>> direction or the other.
>>
>> Chad
>>
>>
>> On 7/6/06, Ed Rodgers <ed.rodgers at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > i think you misunderstood my meaning of progressive.
>> >
>> > by progressive i mean moving beyond the process currently in place by
>> > utilizing tools available to us in order to better understand
>> > political and governmental decisions.
>> >
>> > i wasnt saying 'go out and buy every howard zinn book, now!' :)
>> >
>> > and now we see one of the drawbacks to internet based discussion -
>> > comprehension of rhetoric.
>> >
>> > we are progressing past television advertisements
>> > we are progressing to form an online community of thought contributors
>> > we are progressing toward a focus on the topics at hand
>> > it is a progressive movement, label it wikigressive so that it may not
>> > be misconstrued.
>> >
>> > stay tuned; same discussion to follow on democratic vs democratic.
>> >
>> > On 7/6/06, Peter Saint-Andre < stpeter at jabber.org> wrote:
>> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> > > Hash: SHA1
>> > >
>> > > Ed Rodgers wrote:
>> > > > I'm very happy as well that boing boing pointed me to this
>> > wiki.  It's
>> > > > yet another way to further progressive thought using the tools at
>> > our
>> > > > disposal.
>> > >
>> > > My sense from the mission statement Jimbo wrote is that we're trying
>> > to
>> > > open up the political process and make the political debate more
>> > > objective -- not that we're trying to further progressive, liberal,
>> > > libertarian, conservative, green, socialist, communist (etc.)
>> thought
>> > or
>> > > ideology or movements.
>> > >
>> > > Peter
>> > >
>> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)
>> > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>> > >
>> > > iD8DBQFErVJANF1RSzyt3NURAsuAAKDJBZXNrGt9PpG4MOfLMCQeeAC4YACgw8Cv
>> > > vxEaYEMCl92elW7kUs5oubE=
>> > > =hzWb
>> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
>> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Campaigns-l mailing list
>> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chad Lupkes
>> Democracy for Washington
>> http://www.democracyforwashington.com
>> Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
>> http://pdcw.org
>>
>> If Democrats have a pre-911 view of the world, Republicans have a
>> pre-July
>> 4th view of the world.  Go back to King George, shall we?  Not while I'm
>> still breathing.
>>
>> The purpose of a political party is to turn the views and values of its
>> members into public policy. - Russel Wallace, Democracy for Wisconsin
>>
>> Blah, blah, blah!!!  What do we do about it!!
>>
>> Anyone want a roll-top desk?
>> http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/fur/178052982.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Campaigns-l mailing list
>> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>



From djarb at highenergymagic.org  Thu Jul  6 20:15:26 2006
From: djarb at highenergymagic.org (Daniel Arbuckle)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 13:15:26 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] protection on front page
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607061308s3dff2e73va7519fe6ea390948@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0607061308s3dff2e73va7519fe6ea390948@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ddd408be0607061315s4bb22231lfb1049c6615edc57@mail.gmail.com>

Any idea who was trying to silence us?

On 7/6/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, that didn't take long.  I just had to protect the front page from
> multiple blanking attempts.  I've set it as protected from unregistered
> users.  We'll see how long it takes for that to last before we have to go
> Sysop only.
>
> Chad Lupkes
> Seattle
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
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From pashdown at xmission.com  Thu Jul  6 20:16:21 2006
From: pashdown at xmission.com (Pete Ashdown)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 14:16:21 -0600
Subject: [Campaigns-l] A summary of some existing political wikis
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607061129q79c08973gbffd3186164adcee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060706165545.41208B98567@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>	<NFBBLCBGBMCDKOAPLALJKEIHPHAA.ahynes1@optonline.net>
	<801553ab0607061129q79c08973gbffd3186164adcee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AD6F95.60603@xmission.com>



Chad Lupkes wrote:
> wikia.com/wiki/Politics:Portal <http://wikia.com/wiki/Politics:Portal>
> has the complete list.  There's a bunch of them.
No longer exists.

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From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 20:20:40 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 13:20:40 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] protection on front page
In-Reply-To: <ddd408be0607061315s4bb22231lfb1049c6615edc57@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0607061308s3dff2e73va7519fe6ea390948@mail.gmail.com>
	<ddd408be0607061315s4bb22231lfb1049c6615edc57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607061320h5ea2cbecx75bc2b39bcf94564@mail.gmail.com>

Just some IP address.  Someone playing games.  We know how to handle games.

C


On 7/6/06, Daniel Arbuckle <djarb at highenergymagic.org> wrote:
>
> Any idea who was trying to silence us?
>
>  On 7/6/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >  Well, that didn't take long.  I just had to protect the front page from
> multiple blanking attempts.  I've set it as protected from unregistered
> users.  We'll see how long it takes for that to last before we have to go
> Sysop only.
>
> Chad Lupkes
> Seattle
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
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From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 20:22:39 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 13:22:39 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] A summary of some existing political wikis
In-Reply-To: <44AD6F95.60603@xmission.com>
References: <20060706165545.41208B98567@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
	<NFBBLCBGBMCDKOAPLALJKEIHPHAA.ahynes1@optonline.net>
	<801553ab0607061129q79c08973gbffd3186164adcee@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD6F95.60603@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607061322w3c4c0abbrc37bfb67d7abc4d4@mail.gmail.com>

I typed it wrong.

http://wikia.com/wiki/Portal:Politics

Pete, there's another candidate, Green/Libertarian/Populist, in I believe
Rhode Island, who followed your example for a wiki and was on Thom Hartmann
this morning.

Damn, Campaigns is moving fast!

Chad

On 7/6/06, Pete Ashdown <pashdown at xmission.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Chad Lupkes wrote:
> > wikia.com/wiki/Politics:Portal <http://wikia.com/wiki/Politics:Portal>
> > has the complete list.  There's a bunch of them.
> No longer exists.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
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From baphometster at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 20:27:17 2006
From: baphometster at gmail.com (Io Attawai)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 13:27:17 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Citizen j's Campaign
Message-ID: <cde42430607061327i30952ee8wed62db2fbcc0edc6@mail.gmail.com>

Campaign Wikipedians:

Hi, i'm Citizen j, blogger, Wikipedian and democracy enthusiast. I've
been running a campaign on mypsace for 6 months or so, our main plank
being erradication of the electoral system. I have petitions in 5
states, and a website on Geocities that suffers from a combination of
my love for javascript and Geocities' hatred of it.

I love this idea. I love wiki tho, and may in fact love Jimbo, but
this is untested.

I sincerely hope this catches fire. It is this kind of technological
application that can actually bring democracy to the US. I'm sending
all my people this way; i'd rather lose my base to a bigger cause than
have them langour in inaction due to the obvious disabilities of a
Presidential campaign with no delagates.

Persistence is All.
-- 
Citizen j in 2008!!
http://www.myspace.com/baadjetame
http://blog.myspace.com/baadjetame


From mindspillage at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 20:29:27 2006
From: mindspillage at gmail.com (Kat Walsh)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:29:27 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] protection on front page
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607061320h5ea2cbecx75bc2b39bcf94564@mail.gmail.com>
References: <801553ab0607061308s3dff2e73va7519fe6ea390948@mail.gmail.com>
	<ddd408be0607061315s4bb22231lfb1049c6615edc57@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0607061320h5ea2cbecx75bc2b39bcf94564@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8e253f560607061329k6e2e9594lcaf589ce19741dbd@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/6/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just some IP address.  Someone playing games.  We know how to handle games.

Indeed. I've put the main page on my watchlist now, and have opted to
receive email notifications when the page is changed (if this sounds
interesting to you, enter an email address in your user preferences
and enable email notification for your watched pages -- good for
keeping track of pages you care about), in hopes of catching things
like this sooner.

Also, if you spot any issues such as mass vandalism that aren't being
taken care of, please drop a message to this list or in the IRC
channel (#wikia on irc.freenode.net -- you can also reach it through a
web-based client from the "Live chat and support" link on the
sidebar).

Cheers,
Kat
[[User:Mindspillage]], Wikia community team

-- 
The good traveller has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving
-- Lao-Tzu        Wikia: creating communities - http://www.wikia.com


From chris at chiasson.name  Thu Jul  6 20:46:08 2006
From: chris at chiasson.name (Chris Chiasson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:46:08 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>

I disagree. Forum posts, even with moderation, encourage grandstanding
and platitudes because those sound cool/smart/funny and constitute an
easy way to collect moderation points. It is much harder (and better?)
to achieve the consensus on a wiki page. Of course, an individual
controversial opinion can be more valuable than a consensus opinion,
but my guess is that usually only happens if that individual is
well-informed on the topic at hand.

For a wiki with login requirements, I guess one could say that the
people are moderated while the "posts" aren't.

On 7/6/06, George Murray <george.murray at gmail.com> wrote:
> Angela,
>
> I am new to contributing to Wikis and am interested in participating in
> campaigns.wikia.com. I agree with the comment made about Wikis probably not
> having the best functionality for debate. Forums certainly do have wikis
> beat on that. However, forums come in a wide range of functions. For the
> campaigns wikia I would suggest a forum kind of like digg.com's comments
> section. Where fellow wiki contributors can rate a post on its value, and
> posts of high value can rise and eventually be added to a wikia page with
> the most valuable information skimmed from the forum discussion.
>
> For instance you could have a forum "thread" tied to the debate of global
> warming. Posts can have a thread heirarchy for organization. Poor posts can
> be voted down and out. A post rating history is kept to make sure no one is
> just rating down their opponents viewpoints. Wiki contributors cannot
> re-write each others posts, but they can re-organize posts to create a more
> distilled discussion. The highest level of talking points can be the wiki
> page.
>
> I am new to contributing to wikis so forgive me if my lingo is not on
> target, but I hope that I have gotten my point across. The merging of a
> flowing participatory forum functionality with the opening of wikis can
> distill topics and present the basics for visitors.
>
> Thanks,
> gmurray
>
>
> On 7/6/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 7/7/06, bruce boston <bboston at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I wonder if we couldn't use a set of forums that went along with the
> Wiki.
> >
> > We do have a wiki-based forum at
> > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:The_Soapbox - the
> idea is
> > combine the advantages of a forum with those of a wiki. I'd be
> > interested to know what everyone thinks of it, especially those people
> > new to wikis. Is it much harder to use than the forums you're used to?
> >
> > Angela.
> >
> > --
> > Angela Beesley
> > Wikia.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>


-- 
http://chris.chiasson.name/


From pashdown at xmission.com  Thu Jul  6 18:09:32 2006
From: pashdown at xmission.com (Pete Ashdown)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 12:09:32 -0600
Subject: [Campaigns-l] A summary of some existing  political wikis
In-Reply-To: <NFBBLCBGBMCDKOAPLALJKEIHPHAA.ahynes1@optonline.net>
References: <NFBBLCBGBMCDKOAPLALJKEIHPHAA.ahynes1@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <44AD51DC.7040504@xmission.com>



Aldon Hynes wrote:
> What else is out there?
>
>   
AFAIK, I am still the only candidate with a Wiki on his campaign website.

http://peteashdown.org/wiki

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From dkilmer at sevenless.org  Thu Jul  6 20:42:29 2006
From: dkilmer at sevenless.org (david kilmer)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 16:42:29 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <4720.207.173.201.60.1152215402.squirrel@207.173.201.60>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
	<e23444c80607061139y21420d69wf4f040e924ecc5e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0607061159lc3f6c82v5187b44599bb5c2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061221v7874bbbawc39d5220f38cfb98@mail.gmail.com>
	<4720.207.173.201.60.1152215402.squirrel@207.173.201.60>
Message-ID: <op.tcabs3no0wgz6v@desipramine>

There's one aspect of "issues" that's important. I think the main barrier  
to the "smartness" that Mr. Wales spoke of is the difficulty of getting to  
an informed state without doing a *lot* of searching, reading, and  
de-spinning. Rather than murky ideological "issues", I'd like to see  
specific *proposals* analyzed. If someone is proposing a tax cut, who is  
it going to benefit in real numbers, and what are the possible effects? I  
think some ruthless analysis would force politicians to speak in a  
language of specific proposals rather than ideological issues.

-- david

On Thu, 06 Jul 2006 15:50:02 -0400, Ben Hubbird <hubbird at efn.org> wrote:

> Politicians love issues (especially bivalent ones) because they are easy.
> We should hate them because they insult our intelligence as citizens and
> perpetuate the myth that we are divided by some impermeable ideological
> barrier.


From george.murray at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 20:58:47 2006
From: george.murray at gmail.com (George Murray)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:58:47 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3fdb2c400607061358g258dab9flfc4eb4fde6aa8f63@mail.gmail.com>

Grandstanding and platitudes may be commonplace on forums such as digg, and
slashdot, but I think that mostly has to do with the type of people who
contribute. A more conventional forum for wiki users would probably not only
work better for communication, but be easier to use. Perhaps I'm just new
the wikis though.

And how much moderation is user registration? It's really not hard to
register a wiki account and then post away. The real moderation should be at
the post level.

-gm

On 7/6/06, Chris Chiasson <chris at chiasson.name> wrote:
>
> I disagree. Forum posts, even with moderation, encourage grandstanding
> and platitudes because those sound cool/smart/funny and constitute an
> easy way to collect moderation points. It is much harder (and better?)
> to achieve the consensus on a wiki page. Of course, an individual
> controversial opinion can be more valuable than a consensus opinion,
> but my guess is that usually only happens if that individual is
> well-informed on the topic at hand.
>
> For a wiki with login requirements, I guess one could say that the
> people are moderated while the "posts" aren't.
>
> On 7/6/06, George Murray <george.murray at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Angela,
> >
> > I am new to contributing to Wikis and am interested in participating in
> > campaigns.wikia.com. I agree with the comment made about Wikis probably
> not
> > having the best functionality for debate. Forums certainly do have wikis
> > beat on that. However, forums come in a wide range of functions. For the
> > campaigns wikia I would suggest a forum kind of like digg.com's comments
> > section. Where fellow wiki contributors can rate a post on its value,
> and
> > posts of high value can rise and eventually be added to a wikia page
> with
> > the most valuable information skimmed from the forum discussion.
> >
> > For instance you could have a forum "thread" tied to the debate of
> global
> > warming. Posts can have a thread heirarchy for organization. Poor posts
> can
> > be voted down and out. A post rating history is kept to make sure no one
> is
> > just rating down their opponents viewpoints. Wiki contributors cannot
> > re-write each others posts, but they can re-organize posts to create a
> more
> > distilled discussion. The highest level of talking points can be the
> wiki
> > page.
> >
> > I am new to contributing to wikis so forgive me if my lingo is not on
> > target, but I hope that I have gotten my point across. The merging of a
> > flowing participatory forum functionality with the opening of wikis can
> > distill topics and present the basics for visitors.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > gmurray
> >
> >
> > On 7/6/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 7/7/06, bruce boston <bboston at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I wonder if we couldn't use a set of forums that went along with the
> > Wiki.
> > >
> > > We do have a wiki-based forum at
> > > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:The_Soapbox - the
> > idea is
> > > combine the advantages of a forum with those of a wiki. I'd be
> > > interested to know what everyone thinks of it, especially those people
> > > new to wikis. Is it much harder to use than the forums you're used to?
> > >
> > > Angela.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Angela Beesley
> > > Wikia.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> http://chris.chiasson.name/
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From schnippy at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 21:02:47 2006
From: schnippy at gmail.com (Greg Schnippel)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 17:02:47 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <331548370607061402x83a7c58k52b2556ab2c8f7b4@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/6/06, Chris Chiasson <chris at chiasson.name> wrote:
> I disagree. Forum posts, even with moderation, encourage grandstanding
> and platitudes because those sound cool/smart/funny and constitute an
> easy way to collect moderation points. It is much harder (and better?)
> to achieve the consensus on a wiki page. Of course, an individual
> controversial opinion can be more valuable than a consensus opinion,
> but my guess is that usually only happens if that individual is
> well-informed on the topic at hand.

I agree with Chris here -- we would need to develop a more
sophisticated kind of rating system than whats out there already if we
want to allow users to assess an argument in a debate. The rating
systems on sites like slashdot or digg often devolve into snarkoffs
with the funniest comments rising to the top (especially on
non-technical topics). Fun to read but we have to guide other users in
how to properly evaluate a statment to get the outcome we want.

I like the 'actionforum' system used by MoveOn but I'm not sure its
useful for evaluating arguments:

Example:
http://www.actionforum.com/forum/?forum_id=266

Not sure if there is a good way to collaboratively assess an argument..

- Greg


From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 21:10:56 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:10:56 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] A summary of some existing political wikis
In-Reply-To: <44AD51DC.7040504@xmission.com>
References: <NFBBLCBGBMCDKOAPLALJKEIHPHAA.ahynes1@optonline.net>
	<44AD51DC.7040504@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607061410i66101719pc8d7c50b078d3905@mail.gmail.com>

Here's one more.

http://www.zeese.us/index.php?title=Main_Page

Chad


On 7/6/06, Pete Ashdown <pashdown at xmission.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Aldon Hynes wrote:
> > What else is out there?
> >
> >
> AFAIK, I am still the only candidate with a Wiki on his campaign website.
>
> http://peteashdown.org/wiki
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
>
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From tom at tompurl.com  Thu Jul  6 21:14:13 2006
From: tom at tompurl.com (Tom Purl)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:14:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <3fdb2c400607061358g258dab9flfc4eb4fde6aa8f63@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061358g258dab9flfc4eb4fde6aa8f63@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61269.159.53.78.142.1152220453.squirrel@mail.zoper.com>

You also have to remember that this is a wiki, not a blog, so there are
no "posts" or anything else similarly atomic to moderate.  When you
contribute to a wiki, you're changing an actual page.  I don't even know
how you would moderate something like that.

For example, if I delete one sentence from a paragraph, replace it with
something more accurate, and then add another paragraph, how do you
"hide" or "promote" my contribution without butchering the new version
of the wiki page?  You could revert the page to previous version, but
what does that mean for the next guy or gal who comes along and adds
some really valuable content?  Moderating by reversion is really only
useful for combating spam and vandalism.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, using current wiki tools, groups
of users can't really "moderate" contributions so that the "cream"
automatically rises to the top.  You can do that in a blog (such as
Slashdot), but wikis are *very different* from blogs.  The best you can
do is have a small group of people who monitor changes to a page and
make edits as necessary (merging new content, restructuring, deleting
false content, etc.).

> Grandstanding and platitudes may be commonplace on forums such as digg,
> and
> slashdot, but I think that mostly has to do with the type of people who
> contribute. A more conventional forum for wiki users would probably not
> only
> work better for communication, but be easier to use. Perhaps I'm just new
> the wikis though.
>
> And how much moderation is user registration? It's really not hard to
> register a wiki account and then post away. The real moderation should be
> at
> the post level.
>
> -gm
>
> On 7/6/06, Chris Chiasson <chris at chiasson.name> wrote:
>>
>> I disagree. Forum posts, even with moderation, encourage grandstanding
>> and platitudes because those sound cool/smart/funny and constitute an
>> easy way to collect moderation points. It is much harder (and better?)
>> to achieve the consensus on a wiki page. Of course, an individual
>> controversial opinion can be more valuable than a consensus opinion,
>> but my guess is that usually only happens if that individual is
>> well-informed on the topic at hand.
>>
>> For a wiki with login requirements, I guess one could say that the
>> people are moderated while the "posts" aren't.
>>
>> On 7/6/06, George Murray <george.murray at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Angela,
>> >
>> > I am new to contributing to Wikis and am interested in participating
>> in
>> > campaigns.wikia.com. I agree with the comment made about Wikis
>> probably
>> not
>> > having the best functionality for debate. Forums certainly do have
>> wikis
>> > beat on that. However, forums come in a wide range of functions. For
>> the
>> > campaigns wikia I would suggest a forum kind of like digg.com's
>> comments
>> > section. Where fellow wiki contributors can rate a post on its value,
>> and
>> > posts of high value can rise and eventually be added to a wikia page
>> with
>> > the most valuable information skimmed from the forum discussion.
>> >
>> > For instance you could have a forum "thread" tied to the debate of
>> global
>> > warming. Posts can have a thread heirarchy for organization. Poor
>> posts
>> can
>> > be voted down and out. A post rating history is kept to make sure no
>> one
>> is
>> > just rating down their opponents viewpoints. Wiki contributors cannot
>> > re-write each others posts, but they can re-organize posts to create a
>> more
>> > distilled discussion. The highest level of talking points can be the
>> wiki
>> > page.
>> >
>> > I am new to contributing to wikis so forgive me if my lingo is not on
>> > target, but I hope that I have gotten my point across. The merging of
>> a
>> > flowing participatory forum functionality with the opening of wikis
>> can
>> > distill topics and present the basics for visitors.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > gmurray
>> >
>> >
>> > On 7/6/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > On 7/7/06, bruce boston <bboston at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > I wonder if we couldn't use a set of forums that went along with
>> the
>> > Wiki.
>> > >
>> > > We do have a wiki-based forum at
>> > > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:The_Soapbox - the
>> > idea is
>> > > combine the advantages of a forum with those of a wiki. I'd be
>> > > interested to know what everyone thinks of it, especially those
>> people
>> > > new to wikis. Is it much harder to use than the forums you're used
>> to?
>> > >
>> > > Angela.
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Angela Beesley
>> > > Wikia.com
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
>> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Campaigns-l mailing list
>> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://chris.chiasson.name/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Campaigns-l mailing list
>> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>



From alucard996 at wi.rr.com  Thu Jul  6 21:22:47 2006
From: alucard996 at wi.rr.com (alucard996)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 16:22:47 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] My 2 cents
In-Reply-To: <fbb28f290607061207s7b5ccfe0y95919d4f95e2098a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fbb28f290607061207s7b5ccfe0y95919d4f95e2098a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AD7F27.6020607@wi.rr.com>

I absolutely love this idea, even if it is only part of the bigger 
picture. Keep strictly to what each candidate has said (quotes w/ 
source) and done (vote records w/source) and let people decipher the 
information for themselves and/or talk about it somewhere else. I think 
separation of fact and opinion is the biggest hurtle to jump over here 
and the best way to do it is to keep the wiki completely factual - 
things that can be proved without a shadow of a doubt via documented 
evidence.

Maybe there should be some sort of explicit distinction between pages 
that contain fact and ones that contain opinion.

- Dustin

Jamie Baswell wrote:
> I think the wiki portion should be as factual as possible.
>  
> What I'd love to see:
>  
> Name
>  
> Biography
> -- Written by himself or supporters. Not a political history, which 
> will be covered later, but a simple history, where they're from, what 
> schools they attended, generic stuff like that.
>  
> Voting Record
> -- List of voting history, if any.  Each entry can be a simple item 
> number and how they voted.  Each item number can itself be a link to a 
> different Wiki entry containing a summary of the bill and what various 
> candidates have said about it, if anything.
>  
>  
> For example:
>  
> [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
> "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California 
> residents to replace their cars with penguins." - Mr. Candidate, New 
> York Times interview, 1997
> [Bill OU812] - Voted YES
> "I voted yes on this because I think it's important to save the Alaska 
> Salmon." - Mr. Candidate, Campaign Wikia, 2006
>  
>  
> If you click on [Bill 90210], you should get at least a brief summary 
> of what it was, and Mr. Candidate's comments should be echoed on that 
> page, along with the comments of every other candidate who had 
> anything to say about it.
>  
> So we can see what Mr. Candidate said about it on his page or we can 
> click on the item and see what everyone said about it.
>  
> This list should be a community effort, not just up to the campaigner 
> to post the ones he wants to popularize.  If he voted NO on something 
> 30 years ago and wants to comment about how he would vote YES now if 
> given a chance, he or his supporters can add comments to that effect, 
> but the fact that he did vote NO should remain on the page.
>  
>  
> Other sections could include memorable quotes (with references) links 
> to speeches, debate transcripts, etc.
>  
>  
> The bottom line for me is I would love to be able to see that Joe Blow 
> is running for governor or whatever, then go here and type "Joe Blow" 
> and see a list of things he's voted on in the past, what 
> those things actually were about, anything he had to say about it, etc.
>  
> Comments from random people should be left to the forums.  Comments 
> from opponets should be made on their own page, not here.
>  
> e.g.
> [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
> "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California 
> residents to replace their cars with penguins." - Mr. Candidate, 1997
> "You voted no because you fear change and you're racist against 
> penguins." - Mr. Opponet, 2006
>  
> The second comment should be deleted, since creating a Debate Wiki 
> would just be ugly.  Mr. Opponet can write a speech about it and link 
> that seperately on his own page if he'd like.
>  
> Similarly:
> [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
> "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California 
> residents to replace their cars with penguins.  Mr. Opponet has no 
> respect for the rights of modern Californians to not be subjected to 
> the daily abuse of penguins." - Mr. Candidate, 1997
>  
> That should be trimmed down to read as it was before.  The second 
> sentence is not directly relevant to why he voted NO and just invites 
> a mid-wiki flamewar.
>  
> The tighter we keep it to the relevant facts, I think, the better.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>   



From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 21:30:01 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:30:01 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <4720.207.173.201.60.1152215402.squirrel@207.173.201.60>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
	<e23444c80607061139y21420d69wf4f040e924ecc5e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0607061159lc3f6c82v5187b44599bb5c2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061221v7874bbbawc39d5220f38cfb98@mail.gmail.com>
	<4720.207.173.201.60.1152215402.squirrel@207.173.201.60>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607061430u3645e24bpca3852a90dfa5403@mail.gmail.com>

Ben, I think your final phrase runs counter to your position.

"What do y'all think?"

Wikipedia is answering the question: What do you know?

Wikicampaigns is answer the question: What do you think?

Both gives people the ability to make their own infrastructure, either on
facts or opinions.  That's the strength of the wiki systems.


On 7/6/06, Ben Hubbird <hubbird at efn.org> wrote:
>
> I like this idea a lot. The more that this can be a roadmap to the
> political landscape, rather than just another collection of billboards
> along the way, the more valuable and important it will be. I don't think
> this SHOULD be a forum for discussion of "issues", as issues are merely
> those prepackaged, focus grouped items that poll well with a politician's
> target demographic.
>
> Politicians love issues (especially bivalent ones) because they are easy.
> We should hate them because they insult our intelligence as citizens and
> perpetuate the myth that we are divided by some impermeable ideological
> barrier.
>
> Seems like the questions we should be answering are not "Who's right,
> who's wrong?" It should be abundantly clear to anyone who has even a
> modest political awareness that NOBODY is "right".
>
> We should instead ask: "What should politics look like, if not the current
> system? How can we get there?"
>
> A section on how campaigns are run might be a first step -- nothing
> impacts the current shape of the political debate more than the dirty
> games it takes to get into office.
>
> What do y'all think?
>
> Ben Hubbird
>
> George Murray said:
> > One of my concerns with the current political process is the use of
> > framing
> > [see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(communication_theory) ] and
> > buzzwords to redefine the problems rather than solve them.
> >
> > Campaigns Wikia could be a great way to "cut through" the redefinition
> > these
> > politicians do by taking whatever the latest buzzwords are and having an
> > up-to-date record of their use and redefinition over time.
> >
> > Just a thought,
> > -gmurray
> >
> > On 7/6/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Something this wiki is going to be able to do is define our terms for
> >> the
> >> ongoing discussion.  And the people who show up and make the edits will
> >> do
> >> the defining instead of paid political operatives looking to spin
> things
> >> one
> >> direction or the other.
> >>
> >> Chad
> >>
> >>
> >> On 7/6/06, Ed Rodgers <ed.rodgers at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > i think you misunderstood my meaning of progressive.
> >> >
> >> > by progressive i mean moving beyond the process currently in place by
> >> > utilizing tools available to us in order to better understand
> >> > political and governmental decisions.
> >> >
> >> > i wasnt saying 'go out and buy every howard zinn book, now!' :)
> >> >
> >> > and now we see one of the drawbacks to internet based discussion -
> >> > comprehension of rhetoric.
> >> >
> >> > we are progressing past television advertisements
> >> > we are progressing to form an online community of thought
> contributors
> >> > we are progressing toward a focus on the topics at hand
> >> > it is a progressive movement, label it wikigressive so that it may
> not
> >> > be misconstrued.
> >> >
> >> > stay tuned; same discussion to follow on democratic vs democratic.
> >> >
> >> > On 7/6/06, Peter Saint-Andre < stpeter at jabber.org> wrote:
> >> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >> > > Hash: SHA1
> >> > >
> >> > > Ed Rodgers wrote:
> >> > > > I'm very happy as well that boing boing pointed me to this
> >> > wiki.  It's
> >> > > > yet another way to further progressive thought using the tools at
> >> > our
> >> > > > disposal.
> >> > >
> >> > > My sense from the mission statement Jimbo wrote is that we're
> trying
> >> > to
> >> > > open up the political process and make the political debate more
> >> > > objective -- not that we're trying to further progressive, liberal,
> >> > > libertarian, conservative, green, socialist, communist (etc.)
> >> thought
> >> > or
> >> > > ideology or movements.
> >> > >
> >> > > Peter
> >> > >
> >> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >> > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)
> >> > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> >> > >
> >> > > iD8DBQFErVJANF1RSzyt3NURAsuAAKDJBZXNrGt9PpG4MOfLMCQeeAC4YACgw8Cv
> >> > > vxEaYEMCl92elW7kUs5oubE=
> >> > > =hzWb
> >> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> >> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> >> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Chad Lupkes
> >> Democracy for Washington
> >> http://www.democracyforwashington.com
> >> Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
> >> http://pdcw.org
> >>
> >> If Democrats have a pre-911 view of the world, Republicans have a
> >> pre-July
> >> 4th view of the world.  Go back to King George, shall we?  Not while
> I'm
> >> still breathing.
> >>
> >> The purpose of a political party is to turn the views and values of its
> >> members into public policy. - Russel Wallace, Democracy for Wisconsin
> >>
> >> Blah, blah, blah!!!  What do we do about it!!
> >>
> >> Anyone want a roll-top desk?
> >> http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/fur/178052982.html
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Campaigns-l mailing list
> >> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>



-- 
Chad Lupkes
Democracy for Washington
http://www.democracyforwashington.com
Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
http://pdcw.org

If Democrats have a pre-911 view of the world, Republicans have a pre-July
4th view of the world.  Go back to King George, shall we?  Not while I'm
still breathing.

The purpose of a political party is to turn the views and values of its
members into public policy. - Russel Wallace, Democracy for Wisconsin

Blah, blah, blah!!!  What do we do about it!!

Anyone want a roll-top desk?
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/fur/178052982.html
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From seanl at literati.org  Thu Jul  6 21:14:28 2006
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 14:14:28 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] "What's YOUR perspective?"
Message-ID: <44AD7D34.3060800@literati.org>

I am not sure how valuable it is to just have a huge list of people's
opinions without any sort of discussion. It seems pretty unlikely that
people will actually read more than the first and possibly last few once
the list gets long, and they will tend to get pretty redundant after a
while. I also think it's very un-wiki-like.


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From stpeter at jabber.org  Thu Jul  6 21:41:21 2006
From: stpeter at jabber.org (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 15:41:21 -0600
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <op.tcabs3no0wgz6v@desipramine>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>	<e23444c80607061139y21420d69wf4f040e924ecc5e2@mail.gmail.com>	<801553ab0607061159lc3f6c82v5187b44599bb5c2e@mail.gmail.com>	<3fdb2c400607061221v7874bbbawc39d5220f38cfb98@mail.gmail.com>	<4720.207.173.201.60.1152215402.squirrel@207.173.201.60>
	<op.tcabs3no0wgz6v@desipramine>
Message-ID: <44AD8381.1000904@jabber.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sorry, IANAP (I Am Not A Politician) so I hadn't realized the political
meaning of "issue" -- I'm interested in proposals, not issues.

david kilmer wrote:
> There's one aspect of "issues" that's important. I think the main
> barrier to the "smartness" that Mr. Wales spoke of is the difficulty of
> getting to an informed state without doing a *lot* of searching,
> reading, and de-spinning. Rather than murky ideological "issues", I'd
> like to see specific *proposals* analyzed. If someone is proposing a tax
> cut, who is it going to benefit in real numbers, and what are the
> possible effects? I think some ruthless analysis would force politicians
> to speak in a language of specific proposals rather than ideological
> issues.
> 
> -- david
> 
> On Thu, 06 Jul 2006 15:50:02 -0400, Ben Hubbird <hubbird at efn.org> wrote:
> 
>> Politicians love issues (especially bivalent ones) because they are easy.
>> We should hate them because they insult our intelligence as citizens and
>> perpetuate the myth that we are divided by some impermeable ideological
>> barrier.
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From gmunson at haverford.edu  Thu Jul  6 21:45:02 2006
From: gmunson at haverford.edu (Geddes Munson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 17:45:02 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] My 2 cents
In-Reply-To: <44AD7F27.6020607@wi.rr.com>
References: <fbb28f290607061207s7b5ccfe0y95919d4f95e2098a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD7F27.6020607@wi.rr.com>
Message-ID: <9c03bd9f0607061445v189b7148of80db69456fe30cd@mail.gmail.com>

Hi - I am probably not worthy of posting to this list since I don't
maintain a political website, or contribute much to wikipedia, but I
am very interested in improving political discourse in our country,
and see this very exciting wiki as a possible way to do that. I would
like to help where I can.

I also like Jamie's idea, and I think that Dustin is absolutely right
that the separation of fact vs. opinion is the biggest hurdle to jump.
There is of course a gray area between the two, that can't be avoided,
but blatant cases of opinion are already showing up on what one would
think should be factual pages. Look at this for example:

http://campaigns.wikia.com/index.php?title=No_Child_Left_Behind&oldid=2688

The article has a subtitle "Many Children Left Behind" and starts "The
No Child Left Behind Program is an unfortunate program that compounds
what is already wrong with our schools." This is a blatant case of
opinion, and should, in my opinion, have no place in the article, at
least not unless there is a section labled "opinion." The article
should be a summary of what the law actually mandates, a list of who
voted for it and who voted against it, a link to a transcript of the
floor debate, etc.

On the other hand, I really like what I am seeing on this page:

http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Gay_marriage

With points for, points against, and counter-points. No one has yet
put more than a sentence in for the arguments against, but the point
is the room is there and once this site is more than a day old,
someone is bound to do it. This seems to be a mix of fact and opinion
that gel together nicely.

Is the solution to have two versions for every page : Issue_facts and
issue_opinion? I'm not sure.

 - Geddes

On 7/6/06, alucard996 <alucard996 at wi.rr.com> wrote:
> I absolutely love this idea, even if it is only part of the bigger
> picture. Keep strictly to what each candidate has said (quotes w/
> source) and done (vote records w/source) and let people decipher the
> information for themselves and/or talk about it somewhere else. I think
> separation of fact and opinion is the biggest hurtle to jump over here
> and the best way to do it is to keep the wiki completely factual -
> things that can be proved without a shadow of a doubt via documented
> evidence.
>
> Maybe there should be some sort of explicit distinction between pages
> that contain fact and ones that contain opinion.
>
> - Dustin
>
> Jamie Baswell wrote:
> > I think the wiki portion should be as factual as possible.
> >
> > What I'd love to see:
> >
> > Name
> >
> > Biography
> > -- Written by himself or supporters. Not a political history, which
> > will be covered later, but a simple history, where they're from, what
> > schools they attended, generic stuff like that.
> >
> > Voting Record
> > -- List of voting history, if any.  Each entry can be a simple item
> > number and how they voted.  Each item number can itself be a link to a
> > different Wiki entry containing a summary of the bill and what various
> > candidates have said about it, if anything.
> >
> >
> > For example:
> >
> > [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
> > "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
> > residents to replace their cars with penguins." - Mr. Candidate, New
> > York Times interview, 1997
> > [Bill OU812] - Voted YES
> > "I voted yes on this because I think it's important to save the Alaska
> > Salmon." - Mr. Candidate, Campaign Wikia, 2006
> >
> >
> > If you click on [Bill 90210], you should get at least a brief summary
> > of what it was, and Mr. Candidate's comments should be echoed on that
> > page, along with the comments of every other candidate who had
> > anything to say about it.
> >
> > So we can see what Mr. Candidate said about it on his page or we can
> > click on the item and see what everyone said about it.
> >
> > This list should be a community effort, not just up to the campaigner
> > to post the ones he wants to popularize.  If he voted NO on something
> > 30 years ago and wants to comment about how he would vote YES now if
> > given a chance, he or his supporters can add comments to that effect,
> > but the fact that he did vote NO should remain on the page.
> >
> >
> > Other sections could include memorable quotes (with references) links
> > to speeches, debate transcripts, etc.
> >
> >
> > The bottom line for me is I would love to be able to see that Joe Blow
> > is running for governor or whatever, then go here and type "Joe Blow"
> > and see a list of things he's voted on in the past, what
> > those things actually were about, anything he had to say about it, etc.
> >
> > Comments from random people should be left to the forums.  Comments
> > from opponets should be made on their own page, not here.
> >
> > e.g.
> > [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
> > "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
> > residents to replace their cars with penguins." - Mr. Candidate, 1997
> > "You voted no because you fear change and you're racist against
> > penguins." - Mr. Opponet, 2006
> >
> > The second comment should be deleted, since creating a Debate Wiki
> > would just be ugly.  Mr. Opponet can write a speech about it and link
> > that seperately on his own page if he'd like.
> >
> > Similarly:
> > [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
> > "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
> > residents to replace their cars with penguins.  Mr. Opponet has no
> > respect for the rights of modern Californians to not be subjected to
> > the daily abuse of penguins." - Mr. Candidate, 1997
> >
> > That should be trimmed down to read as it was before.  The second
> > sentence is not directly relevant to why he voted NO and just invites
> > a mid-wiki flamewar.
> >
> > The tighter we keep it to the relevant facts, I think, the better.
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>


From etoainshrd at aol.com  Thu Jul  6 21:45:30 2006
From: etoainshrd at aol.com (etoainshrd at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 17:45:30 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Please add to blog list
Message-ID: <8C86F5CA2D9F02A-1E40-BBD@MBLK-M15.sysops.aol.com>

www.TheNewYorkCrank.blogspot.com

This is a liberal-oriented blog that also cranks about non-political 
subjects, from unhappy "poor little rich dogs" to waiters who keep 
interrupting dinner conversations to ask, "And how is everything."

But there are primarily tons of ranks about national security, 
Republicans, overpayed CEOs and more.


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email 
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.



From tom at tompurl.com  Thu Jul  6 21:47:14 2006
From: tom at tompurl.com (Tom Purl)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:47:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] "What's YOUR perspective?"
In-Reply-To: <44AD7D34.3060800@literati.org>
References: <44AD7D34.3060800@literati.org>
Message-ID: <60123.159.53.78.142.1152222434.squirrel@mail.zoper.com>

> I am not sure how valuable it is to just have a huge list of people's
> opinions without any sort of discussion. It seems pretty unlikely that
> people will actually read more than the first and possibly last few once
> the list gets long, and they will tend to get pretty redundant after a
> while. I also think it's very un-wiki-like.

Right, and since this site is not a blog, it won't work that way.  If
that's the structure the originator of this site wanted, he would have
created a blog.

What's much more likely is that numerous people will edit each page,
and a small number of "moderators" will merge those changes
(or delete unwanted content) if necessary.  So in the end, you have more
of a content "melting pot" (where it's difficult to identify individual
contributions) than a blog "salad" (where the posts and comments are
mixed in a much more atomic way).

Tom Purl



From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 21:53:38 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:53:38 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] My 2 cents
In-Reply-To: <9c03bd9f0607061445v189b7148of80db69456fe30cd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fbb28f290607061207s7b5ccfe0y95919d4f95e2098a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD7F27.6020607@wi.rr.com>
	<9c03bd9f0607061445v189b7148of80db69456fe30cd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607061453j9f42ebfu730d308b5ff01305@mail.gmail.com>

Eventually, we will need to make a distinction between what goes on the
article page and what goes on the discussion page.  Maybe:

Article
*Background
*Party Positions from platforms
**Democrat
**Republican
**Other Party
*Current Legislation
**Bill 1A
***Supporting statements from discussion
***Non-supporting statements from discussion
*Links to polls
*See also
*External links & references
[[cat]]

Discussion pages will be self generating, I guarentee, but we should have a
system of how long to wait before archiving.

Opinions?

Chad Lupkes
Seattle

On 7/6/06, Geddes Munson <gmunson at haverford.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi - I am probably not worthy of posting to this list since I don't
> maintain a political website, or contribute much to wikipedia, but I
> am very interested in improving political discourse in our country,
> and see this very exciting wiki as a possible way to do that. I would
> like to help where I can.
>
> I also like Jamie's idea, and I think that Dustin is absolutely right
> that the separation of fact vs. opinion is the biggest hurdle to jump.
> There is of course a gray area between the two, that can't be avoided,
> but blatant cases of opinion are already showing up on what one would
> think should be factual pages. Look at this for example:
>
> http://campaigns.wikia.com/index.php?title=No_Child_Left_Behind&oldid=2688
>
> The article has a subtitle "Many Children Left Behind" and starts "The
> No Child Left Behind Program is an unfortunate program that compounds
> what is already wrong with our schools." This is a blatant case of
> opinion, and should, in my opinion, have no place in the article, at
> least not unless there is a section labled "opinion." The article
> should be a summary of what the law actually mandates, a list of who
> voted for it and who voted against it, a link to a transcript of the
> floor debate, etc.
>
> On the other hand, I really like what I am seeing on this page:
>
> http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Gay_marriage
>
> With points for, points against, and counter-points. No one has yet
> put more than a sentence in for the arguments against, but the point
> is the room is there and once this site is more than a day old,
> someone is bound to do it. This seems to be a mix of fact and opinion
> that gel together nicely.
>
> Is the solution to have two versions for every page : Issue_facts and
> issue_opinion? I'm not sure.
>
> - Geddes
>
> On 7/6/06, alucard996 <alucard996 at wi.rr.com> wrote:
> > I absolutely love this idea, even if it is only part of the bigger
> > picture. Keep strictly to what each candidate has said (quotes w/
> > source) and done (vote records w/source) and let people decipher the
> > information for themselves and/or talk about it somewhere else. I think
> > separation of fact and opinion is the biggest hurtle to jump over here
> > and the best way to do it is to keep the wiki completely factual -
> > things that can be proved without a shadow of a doubt via documented
> > evidence.
> >
> > Maybe there should be some sort of explicit distinction between pages
> > that contain fact and ones that contain opinion.
> >
> > - Dustin
> >
> > Jamie Baswell wrote:
> > > I think the wiki portion should be as factual as possible.
> > >
> > > What I'd love to see:
> > >
> > > Name
> > >
> > > Biography
> > > -- Written by himself or supporters. Not a political history, which
> > > will be covered later, but a simple history, where they're from, what
> > > schools they attended, generic stuff like that.
> > >
> > > Voting Record
> > > -- List of voting history, if any.  Each entry can be a simple item
> > > number and how they voted.  Each item number can itself be a link to a
> > > different Wiki entry containing a summary of the bill and what various
> > > candidates have said about it, if anything.
> > >
> > >
> > > For example:
> > >
> > > [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
> > > "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
> > > residents to replace their cars with penguins." - Mr. Candidate, New
> > > York Times interview, 1997
> > > [Bill OU812] - Voted YES
> > > "I voted yes on this because I think it's important to save the Alaska
> > > Salmon." - Mr. Candidate, Campaign Wikia, 2006
> > >
> > >
> > > If you click on [Bill 90210], you should get at least a brief summary
> > > of what it was, and Mr. Candidate's comments should be echoed on that
> > > page, along with the comments of every other candidate who had
> > > anything to say about it.
> > >
> > > So we can see what Mr. Candidate said about it on his page or we can
> > > click on the item and see what everyone said about it.
> > >
> > > This list should be a community effort, not just up to the campaigner
> > > to post the ones he wants to popularize.  If he voted NO on something
> > > 30 years ago and wants to comment about how he would vote YES now if
> > > given a chance, he or his supporters can add comments to that effect,
> > > but the fact that he did vote NO should remain on the page.
> > >
> > >
> > > Other sections could include memorable quotes (with references) links
> > > to speeches, debate transcripts, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > The bottom line for me is I would love to be able to see that Joe Blow
> > > is running for governor or whatever, then go here and type "Joe Blow"
> > > and see a list of things he's voted on in the past, what
> > > those things actually were about, anything he had to say about it,
> etc.
> > >
> > > Comments from random people should be left to the forums.  Comments
> > > from opponets should be made on their own page, not here.
> > >
> > > e.g.
> > > [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
> > > "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
> > > residents to replace their cars with penguins." - Mr. Candidate, 1997
> > > "You voted no because you fear change and you're racist against
> > > penguins." - Mr. Opponet, 2006
> > >
> > > The second comment should be deleted, since creating a Debate Wiki
> > > would just be ugly.  Mr. Opponet can write a speech about it and link
> > > that seperately on his own page if he'd like.
> > >
> > > Similarly:
> > > [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
> > > "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
> > > residents to replace their cars with penguins.  Mr. Opponet has no
> > > respect for the rights of modern Californians to not be subjected to
> > > the daily abuse of penguins." - Mr. Candidate, 1997
> > >
> > > That should be trimmed down to read as it was before.  The second
> > > sentence is not directly relevant to why he voted NO and just invites
> > > a mid-wiki flamewar.
> > >
> > > The tighter we keep it to the relevant facts, I think, the better.
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From hubbird at efn.org  Thu Jul  6 22:02:40 2006
From: hubbird at efn.org (Ben Hubbird)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:02:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Progressive Thought
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607061430u3645e24bpca3852a90dfa5403@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e23444c80607061105g55fde04cj5c390b5e3aa558bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD5240.90808@jabber.org>
	<e23444c80607061139y21420d69wf4f040e924ecc5e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0607061159lc3f6c82v5187b44599bb5c2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061221v7874bbbawc39d5220f38cfb98@mail.gmail.com>
	<4720.207.173.201.60.1152215402.squirrel@207.173.201.60>
	<801553ab0607061430u3645e24bpca3852a90dfa5403@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1487.207.173.201.60.1152223360.squirrel@207.173.201.60>

I don't think there's anything counter to my position inherent in asking
what people think about what I'm saying.

I guess part of the reason we have a misunderstanding is that we're
talking about opinions. I am honestly not a big believer in "objectivity".
Facts are great, but boring. Information -- retainable, emotionally
compelling information -- is always presented as a narrative, and that
narrative ALWAYS has a built in bias. Campaigns are all about telling
stories: the personal story of the candidate, the "horse race" story of
the campaign, the disingenuous apocryphal anecdotes of the stump speech.

Opinions are just the stories we tell about ourselves. A huge part of the
problem with American politics today is that we have become a nation of
plagiarists when it comes to these stories.

The Democratic story, the Republican story, the Libertarian story, the
Green story, the Progressive story, the Conservative story, the Liberal
story, the Anarchist story. That's about it. We all tell one of these
stories because we don't have the political vocabulary to tell any others.

What I was trying to communicate with my first post is that we need to
develop our political lexicon into a meaninful tool that we can use to
describe a multitude of ideological stories -- as many stories as there
are citizens -- not just a handful defined and coopted by political
strategists. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that is roughly what George
was trying to suggest as something this Wiki can tackle.

Ben.

Chad Lupkes said:
> Ben, I think your final phrase runs counter to your position.
>
> "What do y'all think?"
>
> Wikipedia is answering the question: What do you know?
>
> Wikicampaigns is answer the question: What do you think?
>
> Both gives people the ability to make their own infrastructure, either on
> facts or opinions.  That's the strength of the wiki systems.
>
>
> On 7/6/06, Ben Hubbird <hubbird at efn.org> wrote:
>>
>> I like this idea a lot. The more that this can be a roadmap to the
>> political landscape, rather than just another collection of billboards
>> along the way, the more valuable and important it will be. I don't think
>> this SHOULD be a forum for discussion of "issues", as issues are merely
>> those prepackaged, focus grouped items that poll well with a
>> politician's
>> target demographic.
>>
>> Politicians love issues (especially bivalent ones) because they are
>> easy.
>> We should hate them because they insult our intelligence as citizens and
>> perpetuate the myth that we are divided by some impermeable ideological
>> barrier.
>>
>> Seems like the questions we should be answering are not "Who's right,
>> who's wrong?" It should be abundantly clear to anyone who has even a
>> modest political awareness that NOBODY is "right".
>>
>> We should instead ask: "What should politics look like, if not the
>> current
>> system? How can we get there?"
>>
>> A section on how campaigns are run might be a first step -- nothing
>> impacts the current shape of the political debate more than the dirty
>> games it takes to get into office.
>>
>> What do y'all think?
>>
>> Ben Hubbird
>>
>> George Murray said:
>> > One of my concerns with the current political process is the use of
>> > framing
>> > [see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(communication_theory) ]
>> and
>> > buzzwords to redefine the problems rather than solve them.
>> >
>> > Campaigns Wikia could be a great way to "cut through" the redefinition
>> > these
>> > politicians do by taking whatever the latest buzzwords are and having
>> an
>> > up-to-date record of their use and redefinition over time.
>> >
>> > Just a thought,
>> > -gmurray
>> >
>> > On 7/6/06, Chad Lupkes <chadlupkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Something this wiki is going to be able to do is define our terms for
>> >> the
>> >> ongoing discussion.  And the people who show up and make the edits
>> will
>> >> do
>> >> the defining instead of paid political operatives looking to spin
>> things
>> >> one
>> >> direction or the other.
>> >>
>> >> Chad
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 7/6/06, Ed Rodgers <ed.rodgers at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > i think you misunderstood my meaning of progressive.
>> >> >
>> >> > by progressive i mean moving beyond the process currently in place
>> by
>> >> > utilizing tools available to us in order to better understand
>> >> > political and governmental decisions.
>> >> >
>> >> > i wasnt saying 'go out and buy every howard zinn book, now!' :)
>> >> >
>> >> > and now we see one of the drawbacks to internet based discussion -
>> >> > comprehension of rhetoric.
>> >> >
>> >> > we are progressing past television advertisements
>> >> > we are progressing to form an online community of thought
>> contributors
>> >> > we are progressing toward a focus on the topics at hand
>> >> > it is a progressive movement, label it wikigressive so that it may
>> not
>> >> > be misconstrued.
>> >> >
>> >> > stay tuned; same discussion to follow on democratic vs democratic.
>> >> >
>> >> > On 7/6/06, Peter Saint-Andre < stpeter at jabber.org> wrote:
>> >> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> >> > > Hash: SHA1
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Ed Rodgers wrote:
>> >> > > > I'm very happy as well that boing boing pointed me to this
>> >> > wiki.  It's
>> >> > > > yet another way to further progressive thought using the tools
>> at
>> >> > our
>> >> > > > disposal.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > My sense from the mission statement Jimbo wrote is that we're
>> trying
>> >> > to
>> >> > > open up the political process and make the political debate more
>> >> > > objective -- not that we're trying to further progressive,
>> liberal,
>> >> > > libertarian, conservative, green, socialist, communist (etc.)
>> >> thought
>> >> > or
>> >> > > ideology or movements.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Peter
>> >> > >
>> >> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> >> > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)
>> >> > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>> >> > >
>> >> > > iD8DBQFErVJANF1RSzyt3NURAsuAAKDJBZXNrGt9PpG4MOfLMCQeeAC4YACgw8Cv
>> >> > > vxEaYEMCl92elW7kUs5oubE=
>> >> > > =hzWb
>> >> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > _______________________________________________
>> >> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
>> >> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> >> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Campaigns-l mailing list
>> >> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> >> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Chad Lupkes
>> >> Democracy for Washington
>> >> http://www.democracyforwashington.com
>> >> Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
>> >> http://pdcw.org
>> >>
>> >> If Democrats have a pre-911 view of the world, Republicans have a
>> >> pre-July
>> >> 4th view of the world.  Go back to King George, shall we?  Not while
>> I'm
>> >> still breathing.
>> >>
>> >> The purpose of a political party is to turn the views and values of
>> its
>> >> members into public policy. - Russel Wallace, Democracy for Wisconsin
>> >>
>> >> Blah, blah, blah!!!  What do we do about it!!
>> >>
>> >> Anyone want a roll-top desk?
>> >> http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/fur/178052982.html
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Campaigns-l mailing list
>> >> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Campaigns-l mailing list
>> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Campaigns-l mailing list
>> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Chad Lupkes
> Democracy for Washington
> http://www.democracyforwashington.com
> Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
> http://pdcw.org
>
> If Democrats have a pre-911 view of the world, Republicans have a pre-July
> 4th view of the world.  Go back to King George, shall we?  Not while I'm
> still breathing.
>
> The purpose of a political party is to turn the views and values of its
> members into public policy. - Russel Wallace, Democracy for Wisconsin
>
> Blah, blah, blah!!!  What do we do about it!!
>
> Anyone want a roll-top desk?
> http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/fur/178052982.html
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>



From pashdown at xmission.com  Thu Jul  6 22:17:20 2006
From: pashdown at xmission.com (Pete Ashdown)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 16:17:20 -0600
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <3fdb2c400607061358g258dab9flfc4eb4fde6aa8f63@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>	<3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>	<acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061358g258dab9flfc4eb4fde6aa8f63@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AD8BF0.8040507@xmission.com>

George Murray wrote:
> And how much moderation is user registration? It's really not hard to
> register a wiki account and then post away. The real moderation should
> be at the post level.
>
In my experience running a campaign wiki, registration is needed along
with administrative approval.  I went from completely open down to this,
due to the spamming and abuse.  If I had an army of editors staying the
abuse, then I would go back to completely open, but as it is, I have
other things I need to do in running a campaign.

I compare it to the town hall meeting.  All are welcome to attend
(unlike some recent town hall meetings by American politicians), but if
you act like an obnoxious jerk, then you'll be thrown out.


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From seanl at literati.org  Thu Jul  6 22:59:41 2006
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 15:59:41 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] "What's YOUR perspective?"
In-Reply-To: <60123.159.53.78.142.1152222434.squirrel@mail.zoper.com>
References: <44AD7D34.3060800@literati.org>
	<60123.159.53.78.142.1152222434.squirrel@mail.zoper.com>
Message-ID: <44AD95DD.2020106@literati.org>

Tom Purl wrote:
>> I am not sure how valuable it is to just have a huge list of people's
>> opinions without any sort of discussion. It seems pretty unlikely that
>> people will actually read more than the first and possibly last few once
>> the list gets long, and they will tend to get pretty redundant after a
>> while. I also think it's very un-wiki-like.
>>     
>
> Right, and since this site is not a blog, it won't work that way.  If
> that's the structure the originator of this site wanted, he would have
> created a blog.
>
> What's much more likely is that numerous people will edit each page,
> and a small number of "moderators" will merge those changes
> (or delete unwanted content) if necessary.  So in the end, you have more
> of a content "melting pot" (where it's difficult to identify individual
> contributions) than a blog "salad" (where the posts and comments are
> mixed in a much more atomic way).
>   
My concern is that someone is adding a section with the subject as its
title to the end of various pages, with a specific request to add
people's perspectives in exactly this fashion.
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From hubbird at efn.org  Thu Jul  6 22:57:31 2006
From: hubbird at efn.org (Ben Hubbird)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:57:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] My 2 cents
In-Reply-To: <44AD7F27.6020607@wi.rr.com>
References: <fbb28f290607061207s7b5ccfe0y95919d4f95e2098a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD7F27.6020607@wi.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2051.207.173.201.60.1152226651.squirrel@207.173.201.60>

> Keep strictly to what each candidate has said (quotes w/
> source) and done (vote records w/source)

The facts are already available in a very easy to use, well-respected,
non-partisan website:

http://www.vote-smart.org

> and let people decipher the information for themselves and/or talk about
 > it somewhere else.

This Wiki should BE that somewhere else. We've got no shortage of facts
available to us as voters, it's just assembling those facts into a
coherent narrative that's the trouble. Any time you selectively include
facts you are implicitly defining a narrative -- you are framing that
candidate in a certain way by including some "facts" and excluding others.
This is unavoidable. Pretending that we are doing anything else is
dangerous and dishonest.

"Deciphering" this information is anything but easy, and I think that's
where this Wiki can really shine.

Ben

alucard996 said:
> I absolutely love this idea, even if it is only part of the bigger
> picture. Keep strictly to what each candidate has said (quotes w/
> source) and done (vote records w/source) and let people decipher the
> information for themselves and/or talk about it somewhere else. I think
> separation of fact and opinion is the biggest hurtle to jump over here
> and the best way to do it is to keep the wiki completely factual -
> things that can be proved without a shadow of a doubt via documented
> evidence.
>
> Maybe there should be some sort of explicit distinction between pages
> that contain fact and ones that contain opinion.
>
> - Dustin
>
> Jamie Baswell wrote:
>> I think the wiki portion should be as factual as possible.
>>
>> What I'd love to see:
>>
>> Name
>>
>> Biography
>> -- Written by himself or supporters. Not a political history, which
>> will be covered later, but a simple history, where they're from, what
>> schools they attended, generic stuff like that.
>>
>> Voting Record
>> -- List of voting history, if any.  Each entry can be a simple item
>> number and how they voted.  Each item number can itself be a link to a
>> different Wiki entry containing a summary of the bill and what various
>> candidates have said about it, if anything.
>>
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
>> "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
>> residents to replace their cars with penguins." - Mr. Candidate, New
>> York Times interview, 1997
>> [Bill OU812] - Voted YES
>> "I voted yes on this because I think it's important to save the Alaska
>> Salmon." - Mr. Candidate, Campaign Wikia, 2006
>>
>>
>> If you click on [Bill 90210], you should get at least a brief summary
>> of what it was, and Mr. Candidate's comments should be echoed on that
>> page, along with the comments of every other candidate who had
>> anything to say about it.
>>
>> So we can see what Mr. Candidate said about it on his page or we can
>> click on the item and see what everyone said about it.
>>
>> This list should be a community effort, not just up to the campaigner
>> to post the ones he wants to popularize.  If he voted NO on something
>> 30 years ago and wants to comment about how he would vote YES now if
>> given a chance, he or his supporters can add comments to that effect,
>> but the fact that he did vote NO should remain on the page.
>>
>>
>> Other sections could include memorable quotes (with references) links
>> to speeches, debate transcripts, etc.
>>
>>
>> The bottom line for me is I would love to be able to see that Joe Blow
>> is running for governor or whatever, then go here and type "Joe Blow"
>> and see a list of things he's voted on in the past, what
>> those things actually were about, anything he had to say about it, etc.
>>
>> Comments from random people should be left to the forums.  Comments
>> from opponets should be made on their own page, not here.
>>
>> e.g.
>> [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
>> "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
>> residents to replace their cars with penguins." - Mr. Candidate, 1997
>> "You voted no because you fear change and you're racist against
>> penguins." - Mr. Opponet, 2006
>>
>> The second comment should be deleted, since creating a Debate Wiki
>> would just be ugly.  Mr. Opponet can write a speech about it and link
>> that seperately on his own page if he'd like.
>>
>> Similarly:
>> [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
>> "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
>> residents to replace their cars with penguins.  Mr. Opponet has no
>> respect for the rights of modern Californians to not be subjected to
>> the daily abuse of penguins." - Mr. Candidate, 1997
>>
>> That should be trimmed down to read as it was before.  The second
>> sentence is not directly relevant to why he voted NO and just invites
>> a mid-wiki flamewar.
>>
>> The tighter we keep it to the relevant facts, I think, the better.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Campaigns-l mailing list
>> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>



From chris at chiasson.name  Thu Jul  6 23:14:34 2006
From: chris at chiasson.name (Chris Chiasson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 18:14:34 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <61269.159.53.78.142.1152220453.squirrel@mail.zoper.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061358g258dab9flfc4eb4fde6aa8f63@mail.gmail.com>
	<61269.159.53.78.142.1152220453.squirrel@mail.zoper.com>
Message-ID: <acbec1a40607061614s482c8cccu70dd512bcde97166@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed. I was merely speaking to the hypothetical situation where we
might be using a forum/thread model vs a wiki model.

On 7/6/06, Tom Purl <tom at tompurl.com> wrote:
> You also have to remember that this is a wiki, not a blog, so there are
> no "posts" or anything else similarly atomic to moderate.  When you
> contribute to a wiki, you're changing an actual page.  I don't even know
> how you would moderate something like that.
>
> For example, if I delete one sentence from a paragraph, replace it with
> something more accurate, and then add another paragraph, how do you
> "hide" or "promote" my contribution without butchering the new version
> of the wiki page?  You could revert the page to previous version, but
> what does that mean for the next guy or gal who comes along and adds
> some really valuable content?  Moderating by reversion is really only
> useful for combating spam and vandalism.
>
> I guess what I'm trying to say is that, using current wiki tools, groups
> of users can't really "moderate" contributions so that the "cream"
> automatically rises to the top.  You can do that in a blog (such as
> Slashdot), but wikis are *very different* from blogs.  The best you can
> do is have a small group of people who monitor changes to a page and
> make edits as necessary (merging new content, restructuring, deleting
> false content, etc.).
>
> > Grandstanding and platitudes may be commonplace on forums such as digg,
> > and
> > slashdot, but I think that mostly has to do with the type of people who
> > contribute. A more conventional forum for wiki users would probably not
> > only
> > work better for communication, but be easier to use. Perhaps I'm just new
> > the wikis though.
> >
> > And how much moderation is user registration? It's really not hard to
> > register a wiki account and then post away. The real moderation should be
> > at
> > the post level.
> >
> > -gm
> >
> > On 7/6/06, Chris Chiasson <chris at chiasson.name> wrote:
> >>
> >> I disagree. Forum posts, even with moderation, encourage grandstanding
> >> and platitudes because those sound cool/smart/funny and constitute an
> >> easy way to collect moderation points. It is much harder (and better?)
> >> to achieve the consensus on a wiki page. Of course, an individual
> >> controversial opinion can be more valuable than a consensus opinion,
> >> but my guess is that usually only happens if that individual is
> >> well-informed on the topic at hand.
> >>
> >> For a wiki with login requirements, I guess one could say that the
> >> people are moderated while the "posts" aren't.
> >>
> >> On 7/6/06, George Murray <george.murray at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Angela,
> >> >
> >> > I am new to contributing to Wikis and am interested in participating
> >> in
> >> > campaigns.wikia.com. I agree with the comment made about Wikis
> >> probably
> >> not
> >> > having the best functionality for debate. Forums certainly do have
> >> wikis
> >> > beat on that. However, forums come in a wide range of functions. For
> >> the
> >> > campaigns wikia I would suggest a forum kind of like digg.com's
> >> comments
> >> > section. Where fellow wiki contributors can rate a post on its value,
> >> and
> >> > posts of high value can rise and eventually be added to a wikia page
> >> with
> >> > the most valuable information skimmed from the forum discussion.
> >> >
> >> > For instance you could have a forum "thread" tied to the debate of
> >> global
> >> > warming. Posts can have a thread heirarchy for organization. Poor
> >> posts
> >> can
> >> > be voted down and out. A post rating history is kept to make sure no
> >> one
> >> is
> >> > just rating down their opponents viewpoints. Wiki contributors cannot
> >> > re-write each others posts, but they can re-organize posts to create a
> >> more
> >> > distilled discussion. The highest level of talking points can be the
> >> wiki
> >> > page.
> >> >
> >> > I am new to contributing to wikis so forgive me if my lingo is not on
> >> > target, but I hope that I have gotten my point across. The merging of
> >> a
> >> > flowing participatory forum functionality with the opening of wikis
> >> can
> >> > distill topics and present the basics for visitors.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > gmurray
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 7/6/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > On 7/7/06, bruce boston <bboston at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > > I wonder if we couldn't use a set of forums that went along with
> >> the
> >> > Wiki.
> >> > >
> >> > > We do have a wiki-based forum at
> >> > > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:The_Soapbox - the
> >> > idea is
> >> > > combine the advantages of a forum with those of a wiki. I'd be
> >> > > interested to know what everyone thinks of it, especially those
> >> people
> >> > > new to wikis. Is it much harder to use than the forums you're used
> >> to?
> >> > >
> >> > > Angela.
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Angela Beesley
> >> > > Wikia.com
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> >> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> >> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> http://chris.chiasson.name/
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Campaigns-l mailing list
> >> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>


-- 
http://chris.chiasson.name/


From jwales at wikia.com  Thu Jul  6 23:21:21 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 18:21:21 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Welcome; getting down to work :)
Message-ID: <44AD9AF1.4060208@wikia.com>

Welcome!  Wow, I caused a bit of a stir. :)

There are over 350 people subscribed to this mailing list now, and more
subscriptions coming in already.  For now, I will keep the list
unmoderated, so let's all please be very respectful of volume... keep it
down as much as possible, because for one thing, we want to not just
talk on the mailing list, but start building something on the wiki. :)

I intend to copy everyone in a day or two as well to an
announcements-only list so that if the volume here gets too high, people
can choose to leave here but choose to stay on the low volume list just
to stay in touch.

So first a few words about 3 sections that I think we can and should
build on the site, all of which seem to me to be equally important...

1. Invitations and instructions and guidance for volunteers and
campaigns to get started building their own wikia sites.  I suspect we
will quickly learn from some brave experimenters what kinds of things on
each of those sites makes the most sense.  (Position papers and meetup
planning are two examples that seem obvious to me.)

2.  Issues - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations of various
campaign issues, the point here is to give voters a place to come for
basic information about active issues... this differs from Wikipedia
articles on the same issues, because we are not talking about a full
encyclopedia article, but more of a "voter guide" to the issue.

3. Voter guide to candidates - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations
of all candidates, broken down by region, office, etc.... also different
from Wikipedia in that these are neutral statements about the candidate
from the point of view of learning about them for the current election,
i.e. more of a focus on campaign platform.  We may want to consider as
well trying to do a pair of "pro" and "con" sidebar articles...

---

for me what make sense is that the central Campaigns Wikia site should
be informational and nonpartisan and neutral, and focussed in a very
strong way on outreach and involvement... helping ordinary people learn
how to get involved.

Then, individual campaign wikias are a totally different matter.  Here
the social norm for each of these should be that they are *supportive*
of the candidate... these are social spaces *for the supporters*.  I am
pretty sure that if we work hard to generate a wiki spirit, we will see
good people of various political persuasions working in good faith to
help even people of different political persuasions to build better sites...

Anyway, welcome, this is pretty cool. :)



-- 
#######################################################################
#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
#######################################################################
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From jwales at wikia.com  Thu Jul  6 23:36:31 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 18:36:31 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <44AD8BF0.8040507@xmission.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>	<3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>	<acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>	<3fdb2c400607061358g258dab9flfc4eb4fde6aa8f63@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD8BF0.8040507@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <44AD9E7F.7060507@wikia.com>

Pete Ashdown wrote:
> In my experience running a campaign wiki, registration is needed along
> with administrative approval.  I went from completely open down to this,
> due to the spamming and abuse.  If I had an army of editors staying the
> abuse, then I would go back to completely open, but as it is, I have
> other things I need to do in running a campaign.

One of the things that I hope very much that we can offer to campaigns
like yours is exactly that army of editors.  At least from my experience
at Wikipedia, there are a TON of people who care more about civil
discourse than about pushing a particular point of view.

> I compare it to the town hall meeting.  All are welcome to attend
> (unlike some recent town hall meetings by American politicians), but if
> you act like an obnoxious jerk, then you'll be thrown out.

Exactly.  My view is that we can build a healthy central community of
people who care about enriching the political discourse, so that a site
like yours can be opened back up... with a strong community to defend it
from attacks.

Small wikis always have a tough time dealing with spam and other abuse.
 But larger ones can help each other out.

Very counterintuitive given the poisonous political environment, but
after years of experience in the wiki world, I know there are more good
people than bad.  To me it seems perfectly sensible that we would see
democrats helping republicans, and republicans helping democrats, to
have better wikis.... because good people on both sides prefer to have a
respectful dialog rather than vandalism.

--Jimbo
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From eloquence at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 00:16:55 2006
From: eloquence at gmail.com (Erik Moeller)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 02:16:55 +0200
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
Message-ID: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>

This is an interesting project, and I hope it will be successful
(though it's not quite clear to me yet what it's trying to be
successful at ;-). Certainly Jimmy has demonstrated that he has a
powerful social network at his disposal. He just needs to post on his
blog and he'll have a flash mob showing up for tea! ;-)

Right now the frontpage and content is very US-centric, which is not
surprising given the way the news about the site has propagated. I
wonder whether any thought has been put into whether and how to
internationalize the project yet. In Wikipedia, the project is split
across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
best split across countries, such as:

campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France

Of course, many countries have multiple official languages, so you might need

campaigns.ca-fr.wikia.com => Canada, French
campaigns.ca-en.wikia.com => Canada, English

The URLs tend to get a bit awful - if the project grows, perhaps it
should get its own domain name. Does this approach seem sensible
otherwise? If so, it might be good to have a page where people can
sign up if they are interested in a campaigns wiki(a) for a particular
country/region.

Erik


From blribbon at fastmail.fm  Fri Jul  7 00:23:48 2006
From: blribbon at fastmail.fm (BLueRibbon)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 01:23:48 +0100
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1152231828.19918.265467617@webmail.messagingengine.com>


On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 02:16:55 +0200, "Erik Moeller" <eloquence at gmail.com>
said:

> Right now the frontpage and content is very US-centric, which is not
> surprising given the way the news about the site has propagated. I
> wonder whether any thought has been put into whether and how to
> internationalize the project yet. In Wikipedia, the project is split
> across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
> best split across countries, such as:
> 
> campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
> campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
> 
> Of course, many countries have multiple official languages, so you might
> need
> 
> campaigns.ca-fr.wikia.com => Canada, French
> campaigns.ca-en.wikia.com => Canada, English
> 
> The URLs tend to get a bit awful - if the project grows, perhaps it
> should get its own domain name. Does this approach seem sensible
> otherwise? If so, it might be good to have a page where people can
> sign up if they are interested in a campaigns wiki(a) for a particular
> country/region.

Hmm, it would be a good idea, but those URLs are beginning to look more
like browser strings than a web address ;)
I think a new domain would work better, as you suggested.

~ BLueRibbon

> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
-- 
 ~ BL Ribbon
  blribbon at fastmail.fm

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - I mean, what is it about a decent email service?



From barskaya at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  7 00:48:19 2006
From: barskaya at yahoo.com (Elena Barskaya)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 17:48:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060707004819.49970.qmail@web55615.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Yepp, toatlay agree. 
  Don't forget about Russia. 
  But then again it's not only about discussing local politics, it's about exchenging knowledge betwen countries.
  
Elena

Erik Moeller <eloquence at gmail.com> wrote:
  This is an interesting project, and I hope it will be successful
(though it's not quite clear to me yet what it's trying to be
successful at ;-). Certainly Jimmy has demonstrated that he has a
powerful social network at his disposal. He just needs to post on his
blog and he'll have a flash mob showing up for tea! ;-)

Right now the frontpage and content is very US-centric, which is not
surprising given the way the news about the site has propagated. I
wonder whether any thought has been put into whether and how to
internationalize the project yet. In Wikipedia, the project is split
across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
best split across countries, such as:

campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France

Of course, many countries have multiple official languages, so you might need

campaigns.ca-fr.wikia.com => Canada, French
campaigns.ca-en.wikia.com => Canada, English

The URLs tend to get a bit awful - if the project grows, perhaps it
should get its own domain name. Does this approach seem sensible
otherwise? If so, it might be good to have a page where people can
sign up if they are interested in a campaigns wiki(a) for a particular
country/region.

Erik
_______________________________________________
Campaigns-l mailing list
Campaigns-l at wikia.com
http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l



Elena
 		
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates starting at 1?/min.
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From dogclem at shentel.net  Fri Jul  7 01:00:50 2006
From: dogclem at shentel.net (Bob)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 21:00:50 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>	<3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>	<acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>	<3fdb2c400607061358g258dab9flfc4eb4fde6aa8f63@mail.gmail.com><44AD8BF0.8040507@xmission.com>
	<44AD9E7F.7060507@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <00bc01c6a160$cde7f120$cf606fcc@bobsrig>

Mr. Wales, You can call me Josey. and I'm with you chief.

First thing seems to me should happen, the political operative types should
hit the big web/blog sites pushing the story.

Nice if we could have a central committe and division of labor, though.

>From personal experience, it's time consuming to take an internet story,
work it hard, and get it to end up above the fold on Olbermann.

Take Care,

Josey




From morten7an at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  7 01:48:38 2006
From: morten7an at yahoo.com (Morten Lange)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 02:48:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <20060707004819.49970.qmail@web55615.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060707014838.89557.qmail@web51004.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Elena Barskaya <barskaya at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Yepp, toatlay agree. 
>   Don't forget about Russia. 
>   But then again it's not only about discussing local politics, it's about
> exchenging knowledge betwen countries.
>   
> Elena
> 

That is what I thought, also : The globalisation process is strong, on many
levels, and that certainly goes also for politics. Politics in the US can have 
so far- reaching consequences that parts of it instantly influences the global
political arena. So a discussion of US-politics can often become a discussion
about consequences outsde the US, directly and indirectly. 

I think the global and international standpoint, discussed using English, is
likely to be the most interesting and fruitful part of the "campaigns" wiki
project. There is a question of compatibility of the "global" discussions,
though. "Western" v.s "non-western", "cultural imperialism" etc.


But I think the most important issues are truly international, and increasingly
so, like  welfare, environmental problems/looming disaster, monetary policy and
trade, and many of the solutions to our common problems. Perhaps even basic
human rights .... 

So, in conclusion, if the "campaigns" wiki is split across countries, I think
we also need a "domain" set apart for the global and perhaps domains for
regions/parts of hemispheres or "cultures".


Best Regards,
Morten Lange

P.S. 
I?m new here. Hope I have not misunderstood the project. The announcement was
quite open-ended.


> Erik Moeller <eloquence at gmail.com> wrote:
>   This is an interesting project, and I hope it will be successful
> (though it's not quite clear to me yet what it's trying to be
> successful at ;-). Certainly Jimmy has demonstrated that he has a
> powerful social network at his disposal. He just needs to post on his
> blog and he'll have a flash mob showing up for tea! ;-)
> 
> Right now the frontpage and content is very US-centric, which is not
> surprising given the way the news about the site has propagated. I
> wonder whether any thought has been put into whether and how to
> internationalize the project yet. In Wikipedia, the project is split
> across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
> best split across countries, such as:
> 
> campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
> campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
> 
> Of course, many countries have multiple official languages, so you might need
> 
> campaigns.ca-fr.wikia.com => Canada, French
> campaigns.ca-en.wikia.com => Canada, English
> 
> The URLs tend to get a bit awful - if the project grows, perhaps it
> should get its own domain name. Does this approach seem sensible
> otherwise? If so, it might be good to have a page where people can
> sign up if they are interested in a campaigns wiki(a) for a particular
> country/region.
> 
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> 
> 
> 
> Elena
>  		
> ---------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates
> starting at 1?/min.> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> 



	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine 
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From george.murray at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 02:57:26 2006
From: george.murray at gmail.com (George Murray)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:57:26 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <00bc01c6a160$cde7f120$cf606fcc@bobsrig>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061358g258dab9flfc4eb4fde6aa8f63@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AD8BF0.8040507@xmission.com> <44AD9E7F.7060507@wikia.com>
	<00bc01c6a160$cde7f120$cf606fcc@bobsrig>
Message-ID: <3fdb2c400607061957h482eb329o1cd376cd37faf386@mail.gmail.com>

I think my ideas are too far out of the wiki format/philosophy. I am kind of
out of touch I guess. Anyway, goodluck. :)

On 7/6/06, Bob <dogclem at shentel.net> wrote:
>
> Mr. Wales, You can call me Josey. and I'm with you chief.
>
> First thing seems to me should happen, the political operative types
> should
> hit the big web/blog sites pushing the story.
>
> Nice if we could have a central committe and division of labor, though.
>
> >From personal experience, it's time consuming to take an internet story,
> work it hard, and get it to end up above the fold on Olbermann.
>
> Take Care,
>
> Josey
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From beesley at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 03:19:10 2006
From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 13:19:10 +1000
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/06, Erik Moeller <eloquence at gmail.com> wrote:

> In Wikipedia, the project is split
> across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
> best split across countries, such as:
>
> campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
> campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France

I'd rather not mix up language codes with countries. If the wiki is
really for France and not French, it makes more sense for it to say
France than fr. Though something like wahlkampf.wikia.com might make
more sense than using the English word for a wiki that's mostly in
German anyway.

Angela


From cmaglaque at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  7 03:19:29 2006
From: cmaglaque at hotmail.com (Chad Maglaque)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 20:19:29 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] More People, More Ideas
In-Reply-To: <3fdb2c400607061957h482eb329o1cd376cd37faf386@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-F34E66F8EEFFFBDD0E0FEDFAB740@phx.gbl>

A huge hat tip to Jimmy and others for jumpstarting this entire dialog.

It's incredibly exciting to see so much enthusiasm and all the comments 
today, especially how they mirror the work we've also been doing on 
www.moreperfect.org over the last several months as we've prepared to launch 
our site.

So many of these comments are in line with our own hands-on experience in 
the political arena and thinking in this area: from the notion of an online 
town hall to wiki-style voter guides, party platforms, involvement of party 
operatives, forums vs. wiki, blogs  vs. wiki, the list goes on!

There's no doubt in our mind that wiki is the next evolution in blogs and 
online forums. Whereas those technologies are great for expression of narrow 
and entrenched opinions as some have noted already, wiki technology is 
collaborative, motivating people with differing ideas to find ways to work 
together - this is the cornerstone of what we're talking about here!

Now, because we're beta, we'd definitely welcome any feedback that folks 
here have to offer about more perfect.

We've got a number of things covered that folks have been asking about: 
templates, how-to's, even how to deal with people who like only red 
lifesavers (more on that here... 
http://www.moreperfect.org/wiki/index.php?title=What%27s_A_Wiki%3F)

so be sure to check it out as and send us your comments!

tim and chad, managing editors @ moreperfect.org


**************************
more on more perfect:
more perfect was born out of our firsthand experience being directly  
involved in the formulation of local and state-wide legislation and public 
policy for more than a decade. Frustrated with the limitations of the 
traditional approach to policy development, we set out to  develop a model 
for collaboration that avoids a time consuming, costly and often ineffective 
public outreach process, and that would involve more people and 
re-invigorate the marketplace of ideas.  more...

http://www.moreperfect.org/wiki/index.php?title=About_More_Perfect




From gilpenchina at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  7 05:18:15 2006
From: gilpenchina at yahoo.com (gil penchina <gil@wikia.com>)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:18:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Foreign campaigns idea
Message-ID: <20060707051815.20241.qmail@web60318.mail.yahoo.com>

Someone suggested having foreign language versions of the campaigns site (as well as UK and CA local versions.  Action being more important than words, I created a signup page where volunteers can offer to help and made a link to it from the home page.  If you have a blog, please promote http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Volunteer now and we can make this a global campaign.
   
   
   



 

Gil


 		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free. 
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From ldrhcp at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 05:25:22 2006
From: ldrhcp at gmail.com (Lenny Domnitser)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 01:25:22 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Welcome; getting down to work :)
In-Reply-To: <44AD9AF1.4060208@wikia.com>
References: <44AD9AF1.4060208@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <94355ecc0607062225m62c14941wd447ecd952b2b41d@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/6/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> 2.  Issues - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations of various
> campaign issues, the point here is to give voters a place to come for
> basic information about active issues.

I don't know how neutral this can realistically be. The very selection
of what the issues are is a partisan matter. Issues can be brought up
to divert attention or to force stance-taking before an election.

> Anyway, welcome, this is pretty cool. :)

Yeah. Thanks.


From baphometster at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 05:36:16 2006
From: baphometster at gmail.com (Io Attawai)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:36:16 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Mr. Candidate
Message-ID: <cde42430607062236y6bd9732djca260826ff7e68e9@mail.gmail.com>

> Jamie Baswell wrote:
>> I think the wiki portion should be as factual as possible.
>>
>> What I'd love to see:
>>
>> Name
>>
>> Biography
>> -- Written by himself or supporters. Not a political history, which
>> will be covered later, but a simple history, where they're from, what
>> schools they attended, generic stuff like that.
>>
>> Voting Record
>> -- List of voting history, if any.  Each entry can be a simple item
>> number and how they voted.  Each item number can itself be a link to a
>> different Wiki entry containing a summary of the bill and what various
>> candidates have said about it, if anything.
>>
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> [Bill 90210] - Voted NO
>> "I voted no on this because of a rider that required all California
>> residents to replace their cars with penguins." - Mr. Candidate, New
>> York Times interview, 1997
>> [Bill OU812] - Voted YES
>> "I voted yes on this because I think it's important to save the Alaska
>> Salmon." - Mr. Candidate, Campaign Wikia, 2006
>>
>>

i would like to see financial disclosure/endorsements/known backers;

[contributors for fiscal 2007]
         Exxon-$13.00
         Dubai Ports IbC-$12.87
[lobbys endorsing[
         IWW
         Bogata Chamber of Commerce
         Church of Satan


I think the number 1 obstacle in consisely transmitting a given
persona's political suchness lies in describing the machine that they
are synergically tied to. Someone like Ted Kennedy is an easy fix to
make relative to possible bias in connecting the dots between him and
his power; Clinton would be a quagmire, not that it's notable but
rather that it's banal complexities lend more opportunuty for bias.

i know there's other sites tracking $, no doubt we all share bookmarks
here. I'm sure we've all noticed the same vagarities in numbers, too,
making authenticity an issue...

-- 
Citizen j in 2008!!
http://www.myspace.com/baadjetame
http://blog.myspace.com/baadjetame


From pashdown at xmission.com  Fri Jul  7 05:42:19 2006
From: pashdown at xmission.com (Pete Ashdown)
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 23:42:19 -0600
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Mr. Candidate
In-Reply-To: <cde42430607062236y6bd9732djca260826ff7e68e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cde42430607062236y6bd9732djca260826ff7e68e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44ADF43B.9010300@xmission.com>

Io Attawai wrote:

> i would like to see financial disclosure/endorsements/known backers;

> i know there's other sites tracking $, no doubt we all share bookmarks
> here. I'm sure we've all noticed the same vagarities in numbers, too,
> making authenticity an issue...

I presume you are aware of http://opensecrets.org and http://tray.com.
All contributions to a federal candidate over $200 are required to be
reported with name, employer and profession.  Contributions to PAC's are
not reported in the same manner and can hide donor source, but the PAC's
can only give up to $5000 per cycle.  It seems to me that the
information presented on Open Secrets make it readily apparent who some
of our elected representatives are working for.



From wsbeck at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  7 05:32:02 2006
From: wsbeck at hotmail.com (Wendy Beck)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 05:32:02 +0000
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Creating a Matrix - Criteria
In-Reply-To: <20060707025733.2F0B7B98577@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
Message-ID: <BAY112-F190E7FCA90BC24C32FBC06C4740@phx.gbl>

Since most people need some kind of visual sense of organization, I had been 
thinking of a matrix.  Call it The Matrix Wiki ;-)

We can ask ourselves to list the most important criteria for making 
decisions about candidates and then decide where in The Matrix it should 
logically go. Of course, each part of the Matrix can be clicked to go deeper 
-- get more facts, background, quotes, etc.

Sometimes people get turned off by too much information and they give up.  
If the criteria we choose makes sense and are organized well, this Wiki will 
be used a lot more. Hopefully, it will be referred to by candidates, mass 
media, Women's League of Voters, etc.



>From: campaigns-l-request at wikia.com
>Reply-To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
>To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
>Subject: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 11
>Date: Fri,  7 Jul 2006 02:57:33 +0000 (UTC)
>
>Send Campaigns-l mailing list submissions to
>	campaigns-l at wikia.com
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>	http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>	campaigns-l-request at wikia.com
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>	campaigns-l-owner at wikia.com
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of Campaigns-l digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Welcome; getting down to work :) (Jimmy Wales)
>    2. Re: Some Thoughts (Jimmy Wales)
>    3. US-only or international? (Erik Moeller)
>    4. Re: US-only or international? (BLueRibbon)
>    5. Re: US-only or international? (Elena Barskaya)
>    6. Re: Some Thoughts (Bob)
>    7. Re: US-only or international? (Morten Lange)
>    8. Re: Some Thoughts (George Murray)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 18:21:21 -0500
>From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
>Subject: [Campaigns-l] Welcome; getting down to work :)
>To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
>Message-ID: <44AD9AF1.4060208 at wikia.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>Welcome!  Wow, I caused a bit of a stir. :)
>
>There are over 350 people subscribed to this mailing list now, and more
>subscriptions coming in already.  For now, I will keep the list
>unmoderated, so let's all please be very respectful of volume... keep it
>down as much as possible, because for one thing, we want to not just
>talk on the mailing list, but start building something on the wiki. :)
>
>I intend to copy everyone in a day or two as well to an
>announcements-only list so that if the volume here gets too high, people
>can choose to leave here but choose to stay on the low volume list just
>to stay in touch.
>
>So first a few words about 3 sections that I think we can and should
>build on the site, all of which seem to me to be equally important...
>
>1. Invitations and instructions and guidance for volunteers and
>campaigns to get started building their own wikia sites.  I suspect we
>will quickly learn from some brave experimenters what kinds of things on
>each of those sites makes the most sense.  (Position papers and meetup
>planning are two examples that seem obvious to me.)
>
>2.  Issues - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations of various
>campaign issues, the point here is to give voters a place to come for
>basic information about active issues... this differs from Wikipedia
>articles on the same issues, because we are not talking about a full
>encyclopedia article, but more of a "voter guide" to the issue.
>
>3. Voter guide to candidates - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations
>of all candidates, broken down by region, office, etc.... also different
>from Wikipedia in that these are neutral statements about the candidate
>from the point of view of learning about them for the current election,
>i.e. more of a focus on campaign platform.  We may want to consider as
>well trying to do a pair of "pro" and "con" sidebar articles...
>
>---
>
>for me what make sense is that the central Campaigns Wikia site should
>be informational and nonpartisan and neutral, and focussed in a very
>strong way on outreach and involvement... helping ordinary people learn
>how to get involved.
>
>Then, individual campaign wikias are a totally different matter.  Here
>the social norm for each of these should be that they are *supportive*
>of the candidate... these are social spaces *for the supporters*.  I am
>pretty sure that if we work hard to generate a wiki spirit, we will see
>good people of various political persuasions working in good faith to
>help even people of different political persuasions to build better 
>sites...
>
>Anyway, welcome, this is pretty cool. :)
>
>
>
>--
>#######################################################################
>#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
>#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
>#######################################################################
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 18:36:31 -0500
>From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
>Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
>To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
>Message-ID: <44AD9E7F.7060507 at wikia.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>Pete Ashdown wrote:
> > In my experience running a campaign wiki, registration is needed along
> > with administrative approval.  I went from completely open down to this,
> > due to the spamming and abuse.  If I had an army of editors staying the
> > abuse, then I would go back to completely open, but as it is, I have
> > other things I need to do in running a campaign.
>
>One of the things that I hope very much that we can offer to campaigns
>like yours is exactly that army of editors.  At least from my experience
>at Wikipedia, there are a TON of people who care more about civil
>discourse than about pushing a particular point of view.
>
> > I compare it to the town hall meeting.  All are welcome to attend
> > (unlike some recent town hall meetings by American politicians), but if
> > you act like an obnoxious jerk, then you'll be thrown out.
>
>Exactly.  My view is that we can build a healthy central community of
>people who care about enriching the political discourse, so that a site
>like yours can be opened back up... with a strong community to defend it
>from attacks.
>
>Small wikis always have a tough time dealing with spam and other abuse.
>  But larger ones can help each other out.
>
>Very counterintuitive given the poisonous political environment, but
>after years of experience in the wiki world, I know there are more good
>people than bad.  To me it seems perfectly sensible that we would see
>democrats helping republicans, and republicans helping democrats, to
>have better wikis.... because good people on both sides prefer to have a
>respectful dialog rather than vandalism.
>
>--Jimbo
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 02:16:55 +0200
>From: "Erik Moeller" <eloquence at gmail.com>
>Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
>To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
>Message-ID:
>	<b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>This is an interesting project, and I hope it will be successful
>(though it's not quite clear to me yet what it's trying to be
>successful at ;-). Certainly Jimmy has demonstrated that he has a
>powerful social network at his disposal. He just needs to post on his
>blog and he'll have a flash mob showing up for tea! ;-)
>
>Right now the frontpage and content is very US-centric, which is not
>surprising given the way the news about the site has propagated. I
>wonder whether any thought has been put into whether and how to
>internationalize the project yet. In Wikipedia, the project is split
>across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
>best split across countries, such as:
>
>campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
>campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
>
>Of course, many countries have multiple official languages, so you might 
>need
>
>campaigns.ca-fr.wikia.com => Canada, French
>campaigns.ca-en.wikia.com => Canada, English
>
>The URLs tend to get a bit awful - if the project grows, perhaps it
>should get its own domain name. Does this approach seem sensible
>otherwise? If so, it might be good to have a page where people can
>sign up if they are interested in a campaigns wiki(a) for a particular
>country/region.
>
>Erik
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 01:23:48 +0100
>From: "BLueRibbon" <blribbon at fastmail.fm>
>Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
>To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
>Message-ID: <1152231828.19918.265467617 at webmail.messagingengine.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
>
>On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 02:16:55 +0200, "Erik Moeller" <eloquence at gmail.com>
>said:
>
> > Right now the frontpage and content is very US-centric, which is not
> > surprising given the way the news about the site has propagated. I
> > wonder whether any thought has been put into whether and how to
> > internationalize the project yet. In Wikipedia, the project is split
> > across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
> > best split across countries, such as:
> >
> > campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
> > campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
> >
> > Of course, many countries have multiple official languages, so you might
> > need
> >
> > campaigns.ca-fr.wikia.com => Canada, French
> > campaigns.ca-en.wikia.com => Canada, English
> >
> > The URLs tend to get a bit awful - if the project grows, perhaps it
> > should get its own domain name. Does this approach seem sensible
> > otherwise? If so, it might be good to have a page where people can
> > sign up if they are interested in a campaigns wiki(a) for a particular
> > country/region.
>
>Hmm, it would be a good idea, but those URLs are beginning to look more
>like browser strings than a web address ;)
>I think a new domain would work better, as you suggested.
>
>~ BLueRibbon
>
> > Erik
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>--
>  ~ BL Ribbon
>   blribbon at fastmail.fm
>
>--
>http://www.fastmail.fm - I mean, what is it about a decent email service?
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 17:48:19 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Elena Barskaya <barskaya at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
>To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
>Message-ID: <20060707004819.49970.qmail at web55615.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Yepp, toatlay agree.
>   Don't forget about Russia.
>   But then again it's not only about discussing local politics, it's about 
>exchenging knowledge betwen countries.
>
>Elena
>
>Erik Moeller <eloquence at gmail.com> wrote:
>   This is an interesting project, and I hope it will be successful
>(though it's not quite clear to me yet what it's trying to be
>successful at ;-). Certainly Jimmy has demonstrated that he has a
>powerful social network at his disposal. He just needs to post on his
>blog and he'll have a flash mob showing up for tea! ;-)
>
>Right now the frontpage and content is very US-centric, which is not
>surprising given the way the news about the site has propagated. I
>wonder whether any thought has been put into whether and how to
>internationalize the project yet. In Wikipedia, the project is split
>across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
>best split across countries, such as:
>
>campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
>campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
>
>Of course, many countries have multiple official languages, so you might 
>need
>
>campaigns.ca-fr.wikia.com => Canada, French
>campaigns.ca-en.wikia.com => Canada, English
>
>The URLs tend to get a bit awful - if the project grows, perhaps it
>should get its own domain name. Does this approach seem sensible
>otherwise? If so, it might be good to have a page where people can
>sign up if they are interested in a campaigns wiki(a) for a particular
>country/region.
>
>Erik
>_______________________________________________
>Campaigns-l mailing list
>Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
>Elena
>
>---------------------------------
>Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates 
>starting at 1?/min.
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 21:00:50 -0400
>From: "Bob" <dogclem at shentel.net>
>Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
>To: <campaigns-l at wikia.com>
>Message-ID: <00bc01c6a160$cde7f120$cf606fcc at bobsrig>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
>
>Mr. Wales, You can call me Josey. and I'm with you chief.
>
>First thing seems to me should happen, the political operative types should
>hit the big web/blog sites pushing the story.
>
>Nice if we could have a central committe and division of labor, though.
>
> >From personal experience, it's time consuming to take an internet story,
>work it hard, and get it to end up above the fold on Olbermann.
>
>Take Care,
>
>Josey
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 02:48:38 +0100 (BST)
>From: Morten Lange <morten7an at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
>To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
>Message-ID: <20060707014838.89557.qmail at web51004.mail.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>--- Elena Barskaya <barskaya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Yepp, toatlay agree.
> >   Don't forget about Russia.
> >   But then again it's not only about discussing local politics, it's 
>about
> > exchenging knowledge betwen countries.
> >
> > Elena
> >
>
>That is what I thought, also : The globalisation process is strong, on many
>levels, and that certainly goes also for politics. Politics in the US can 
>have
>so far- reaching consequences that parts of it instantly influences the 
>global
>political arena. So a discussion of US-politics can often become a 
>discussion
>about consequences outsde the US, directly and indirectly.
>
>I think the global and international standpoint, discussed using English, 
>is
>likely to be the most interesting and fruitful part of the "campaigns" wiki
>project. There is a question of compatibility of the "global" discussions,
>though. "Western" v.s "non-western", "cultural imperialism" etc.
>
>
>But I think the most important issues are truly international, and 
>increasingly
>so, like  welfare, environmental problems/looming disaster, monetary policy 
>and
>trade, and many of the solutions to our common problems. Perhaps even basic
>human rights ....
>
>So, in conclusion, if the "campaigns" wiki is split across countries, I 
>think
>we also need a "domain" set apart for the global and perhaps domains for
>regions/parts of hemispheres or "cultures".
>
>
>Best Regards,
>Morten Lange
>
>P.S.
>I?m new here. Hope I have not misunderstood the project. The announcement 
>was
>quite open-ended.
>
>
> > Erik Moeller <eloquence at gmail.com> wrote:
> >   This is an interesting project, and I hope it will be successful
> > (though it's not quite clear to me yet what it's trying to be
> > successful at ;-). Certainly Jimmy has demonstrated that he has a
> > powerful social network at his disposal. He just needs to post on his
> > blog and he'll have a flash mob showing up for tea! ;-)
> >
> > Right now the frontpage and content is very US-centric, which is not
> > surprising given the way the news about the site has propagated. I
> > wonder whether any thought has been put into whether and how to
> > internationalize the project yet. In Wikipedia, the project is split
> > across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
> > best split across countries, such as:
> >
> > campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
> > campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
> >
> > Of course, many countries have multiple official languages, so you might 
>need
> >
> > campaigns.ca-fr.wikia.com => Canada, French
> > campaigns.ca-en.wikia.com => Canada, English
> >
> > The URLs tend to get a bit awful - if the project grows, perhaps it
> > should get its own domain name. Does this approach seem sensible
> > otherwise? If so, it might be good to have a page where people can
> > sign up if they are interested in a campaigns wiki(a) for a particular
> > country/region.
> >
> > Erik
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> >
> >
> > Elena
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great 
>rates
> > starting at 1?/min.> _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>___________________________________________________________
>All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and 
>ease of use." - PC Magazine
>http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:57:26 -0400
>From: "George Murray" <george.murray at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
>To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
>Message-ID:
>	<3fdb2c400607061957h482eb329o1cd376cd37faf386 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>I think my ideas are too far out of the wiki format/philosophy. I am kind 
>of
>out of touch I guess. Anyway, goodluck. :)
>
>On 7/6/06, Bob <dogclem at shentel.net> wrote:
> >
> > Mr. Wales, You can call me Josey. and I'm with you chief.
> >
> > First thing seems to me should happen, the political operative types
> > should
> > hit the big web/blog sites pushing the story.
> >
> > Nice if we could have a central committe and division of labor, though.
> >
> > >From personal experience, it's time consuming to take an internet 
>story,
> > work it hard, and get it to end up above the fold on Olbermann.
> >
> > Take Care,
> >
> > Josey
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
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>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Campaigns-l mailing list
>Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>End of Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 11
>******************************************




From eloquence at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 05:46:08 2006
From: eloquence at gmail.com (Erik Moeller)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 07:46:08 +0200
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b80736c80607062246w1d60b482mac8b23a1ca55c51e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'd rather not mix up language codes with countries. If the wiki is
> really for France and not French, it makes more sense for it to say
> France than fr. Though something like wahlkampf.wikia.com might make
> more sense than using the English word for a wiki that's mostly in
> German anyway.

German is, however, also spoken in Switzerland and Austria, which have
very different national politics (Switzerland is not even part of the
EU), hence it might be good to have separate wikis.

Alternatively, you could do the language separation like Wikipedia,
and just use portals for the different countries. So you would have
Portal:Germany (or Portal:Deutschland or whatever) on every language
Wikia where there are enough people to bootstrap it.  Do you have a
preference between these two?

Note that "Wahlkampf" means "election campaign", rather than any kind
of political campaign (i.e. it excludes NGO and grass-roots work
outside election season). The literal translation of "campaigns" would
be "Kampagnen". This raises the question whether Wikia wants to focus
on the former or include the latter.

Angela, I won't have much time to commit to this, but if you get Rieke
to translate Jimmy's Mission Statement, I can pass it around a bit in
the German blogosphere and on some relevant mailing lists. The
Wikipedia experience shows that Germany probably has the second most
active net population, so it might be smart from a strategic point of
view.

Erik


From maurice.mcginley at ovis.com.au  Fri Jul  7 06:10:10 2006
From: maurice.mcginley at ovis.com.au (Maurice McGinley (Ovis))
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 14:10:10 +0800
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <20060707054411.53E07B98571@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
References: <20060707054411.53E07B98571@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
Message-ID: <c98f820f0607062310h2fbb9736u7696083d44fc0dae@mail.gmail.com>

> On 7/6/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> > 2.  Issues - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations of various
> > campaign issues, the point here is to give voters a place to come for
> > basic information about active issues.

Other posts have suggested:
1. neutrality is difficulty and unlikely, and
2. a registration requirement may be inevitable.

I agree.

Further, I would like to see this used as a forum for policy
development, where known agents with public agendas and agreed goals
discuss and develop policy in the sunlight. ...An open-source policy
incubator. The challenge will be to allow as many as possible to
participate while maintaining the quality of debate.

Is this a shared aim of fellow list members?


From chris at chiasson.name  Fri Jul  7 06:16:09 2006
From: chris at chiasson.name (Chris Chiasson)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 01:16:09 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <331548370607061402x83a7c58k52b2556ab2c8f7b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>
	<331548370607061402x83a7c58k52b2556ab2c8f7b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <acbec1a40607062316r49c0a66bp8a44ce88b6d70a69@mail.gmail.com>

> Example:
> http://www.actionforum.com/forum/?forum_id=266

I thought most of the comments in that thread were one-sided and
resorted to name-calling without much proof to back it up... and I
lean to the left. A right winger would not even make it past the
second comment.

This is interesting to me because the comments were highly rated.

On 7/6/06, Greg Schnippel <schnippy at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/6/06, Chris Chiasson <chris at chiasson.name> wrote:
> > I disagree. Forum posts, even with moderation, encourage grandstanding
> > and platitudes because those sound cool/smart/funny and constitute an
> > easy way to collect moderation points. It is much harder (and better?)
> > to achieve the consensus on a wiki page. Of course, an individual
> > controversial opinion can be more valuable than a consensus opinion,
> > but my guess is that usually only happens if that individual is
> > well-informed on the topic at hand.
>
> I agree with Chris here -- we would need to develop a more
> sophisticated kind of rating system than whats out there already if we
> want to allow users to assess an argument in a debate. The rating
> systems on sites like slashdot or digg often devolve into snarkoffs
> with the funniest comments rising to the top (especially on
> non-technical topics). Fun to read but we have to guide other users in
> how to properly evaluate a statment to get the outcome we want.
>
> I like the 'actionforum' system used by MoveOn but I'm not sure its
> useful for evaluating arguments:
>
> Example:
> http://www.actionforum.com/forum/?forum_id=266
>
> Not sure if there is a good way to collaboratively assess an argument..
>
> - Greg
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>


-- 
http://chris.chiasson.name/


From zfreeman.nu at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 06:33:58 2006
From: zfreeman.nu at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 02:33:58 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <c98f820f0607062310h2fbb9736u7696083d44fc0dae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060707054411.53E07B98571@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
	<c98f820f0607062310h2fbb9736u7696083d44fc0dae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55fab4f20607062333w56861aa8s27523a794a0bcb72@mail.gmail.com>

>On 7/7/06, Maurice McGinley (Ovis) <maurice.mcginley at ovis.com.au> wrote:
>
> >Other posts have suggested:
> >1. neutrality is difficulty and unlikely, and
> >2. a registration requirement may be inevitable.
> >
> >I agree.
> >
> >Further, I would like to see this used as a forum for policy
> >development, where known agents with public agendas and agreed goals
> >discuss and develop policy in the sunlight. ...An open-source policy
> >incubator. The challenge will be to allow as many as possible to
> >participate while maintaining the quality of debate.
> >
> >Is this a shared aim of fellow list members?


I agree that the policy forum would be instructive to those viewing, help
develop the policies themselves, and is a very important function of the
political wiki. I feel that this comes in time with the development of the
political wiki as a clearinghouse of information, a clearinghouse that is
the most current, neutral, and comprehensive. If the political wiki can
become the best place to easily find out everything one wants to know, the
users drawn to it will naturally discuss and debate (hopefully including new
members who would never have become involved). The interest generated in
this way will lead to the wiki becoming an obvious place for public agents
with stated beliefs to develop policy in the open-source format you
mentioned.

Can't wait.



_______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From chris at chiasson.name  Fri Jul  7 06:34:56 2006
From: chris at chiasson.name (Chris Chiasson)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 01:34:56 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Welcome; getting down to work :)
In-Reply-To: <94355ecc0607062225m62c14941wd447ecd952b2b41d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44AD9AF1.4060208@wikia.com>
	<94355ecc0607062225m62c14941wd447ecd952b2b41d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <acbec1a40607062334j3eaaf695gbbc303fc7ea42001@mail.gmail.com>

I disagree with having individual wikias being "generally supportive"
of the candidate. I would rather have a platform breakdown, voting
history (can this be automatically culled from thomas.loc.gov and
other databases?), biography, resume, etc.

Plain facts are easier to organize into a neutral presentation (though
they can also be arranged so that the presentation is not neutral)...

Let's leave political "support" to other sites.

On 7/7/06, Lenny Domnitser <ldrhcp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/6/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> > 2.  Issues - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations of various
> > campaign issues, the point here is to give voters a place to come for
> > basic information about active issues.
>
> I don't know how neutral this can realistically be. The very selection
> of what the issues are is a partisan matter. Issues can be brought up
> to divert attention or to force stance-taking before an election.
>
> > Anyway, welcome, this is pretty cool. :)
>
> Yeah. Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>


-- 
http://chris.chiasson.name/


From home at miguelduarte.net  Fri Jul  7 06:45:17 2006
From: home at miguelduarte.net (Miguel Duarte)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 07:45:17 +0100
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Too much emails
Message-ID: <30580f410607062345k4560a650se2d0dc8b314db807@mail.gmail.com>

Ahh

These are simply too much emails. I should at least receive only one
digest a day. I think on the last 24 hours I received more than 10
emails.

My first idea: Please, move this discussion to a F?rum.

Miguel


From beesley at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 08:28:22 2006
From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 18:28:22 +1000
Subject: [Campaigns-l] This is what I find meaningful
Message-ID: <8b722b800607070128l7c0fb11ai32abc6001bdd9765@mail.gmail.com>

I'm forwarding this on behalf of Neil Pistol who had problems sending
to the list himself.

This is what I find meaningful:

"I don't think this SHOULD be a forum for discussion of "issues", as
issues are merely those prepackaged, focus grouped items that poll
well with a politician's target demographic." -Ben Hubbird

"Sorry, IANAP (I Am Not A Politician) so I hadn't realized the
political meaning of "issue" -- I'm interested in proposals, not
issues." -Peter Saint-Andre

"Or, perhaps, an effort to move beyond the existing parties? As far as
I can see, many Americans feel politically homeless and do not like
the polarization of the political debate. I rather doubt that
Americans are as polarized as the parties are..." -Peter Saint-Andre

I understand Geddes Munson's wariness of "two versions for every page
: Issue_facts and issue_opinion" but I think it is a good idea. Some
people want discussion, some want facts, and some (myself included)
want both. Clearly label both sections, and allow others to separate
the two using the wiki format! (plus, I would like to interchange
opinion/fact for discussion/article.)

"we need to develop our political lexicon into a meaninful tool that
we can use to describe a multitude of ideological stories -- as many
stories as there are citizens" -Ben Hubbard

"We've got no shortage of facts available to us as voters, it's just
assembling those facts into a coherent narrative that's the trouble"
-Ben Hubbard

Thanks to all of you, dniel9

P.S. I do want to involve international politics, but I still feel
that the site should be geographically organized and open to local
politics, in order to revolutionize government/democracy
through-and-through.


From gphemsley at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 09:37:02 2006
From: gphemsley at gmail.com (Gordon P. Hemsley)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 05:37:02 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>

Keep in mind that both DE and FR are country codes, as well. And
you'll notice that the other two URLs mentioned above for Canada are
CA-en and CA-fr, not vice versa.

Also, it should also be noted that the URLs should probably be:
de.campaigns.wikia.com
fr.campaigns.wikia.com
ca-en.campaigns.wikia.com
ca-fr.campaigns.wikia.com

On 7/6/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/7/06, Erik Moeller <eloquence at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In Wikipedia, the project is split
> > across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
> > best split across countries, such as:
> >
> > campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
> > campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
>
> I'd rather not mix up language codes with countries. If the wiki is
> really for France and not French, it makes more sense for it to say
> France than fr. Though something like wahlkampf.wikia.com might make
> more sense than using the English word for a wiki that's mostly in
> German anyway.
>
> Angela
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>


-- 
Gordon P. Hemsley
gphemsley at gmail.com
http://www.lttp.net/ ? http://cmsforme.sourceforge.net/

From morten7an at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  7 10:06:17 2006
From: morten7an at yahoo.com (Morten Lange)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 11:06:17 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Creating a Matrix - Criteria
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-F190E7FCA90BC24C32FBC06C4740@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20060707100617.7548.qmail@web51011.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Wendy Beck <wsbeck at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Since most people need some kind of visual sense of organization, I had been 
> thinking of a matrix.  Call it The Matrix Wiki ;-)
> 

I second this strongly. Are the extensions already in place for the easy
editing of such matrices ? I have been thinking of the need for such pro-et
contra matrices regarding several hotly debated issues, like the Greenhouse
effect, methods for curbing traffic deaths, the scientific bicycle helmet
debate and more.

The ordinary table could be used, but is a bit cumbersome to edit. You need two
windows open to keep track of which column you are in etc. (Am I missing
something here )

In addition to the brief statement of the arguments, perhaps there could be an
option for indicating the weighing of the different arguments in the total.
That weighing would be controversial, so might be difficult in practice.

- Morten

> We can ask ourselves to list the most important criteria for making 
> decisions about candidates and then decide where in The Matrix it should 
> logically go. Of course, each part of the Matrix can be clicked to go deeper 
> -- get more facts, background, quotes, etc.
> 
> Sometimes people get turned off by too much information and they give up.  
> If the criteria we choose makes sense and are organized well, this Wiki will 
> be used a lot more. Hopefully, it will be referred to by candidates, mass 
> media, Women's League of Voters, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> >From: campaigns-l-request at wikia.com
> >Reply-To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >Subject: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 11
> >Date: Fri,  7 Jul 2006 02:57:33 +0000 (UTC)
> >
> >Send Campaigns-l mailing list submissions to
> >	campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >
> >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >	http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >	campaigns-l-request at wikia.com
> >
> >You can reach the person managing the list at
> >	campaigns-l-owner at wikia.com
> >
> >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >than "Re: Contents of Campaigns-l digest..."
> >
> >
> >Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Welcome; getting down to work :) (Jimmy Wales)
> >    2. Re: Some Thoughts (Jimmy Wales)
> >    3. US-only or international? (Erik Moeller)
> >    4. Re: US-only or international? (BLueRibbon)
> >    5. Re: US-only or international? (Elena Barskaya)
> >    6. Re: Some Thoughts (Bob)
> >    7. Re: US-only or international? (Morten Lange)
> >    8. Re: Some Thoughts (George Murray)
> >
> >
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 1
> >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 18:21:21 -0500
> >From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
> >Subject: [Campaigns-l] Welcome; getting down to work :)
> >To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >Message-ID: <44AD9AF1.4060208 at wikia.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> >Welcome!  Wow, I caused a bit of a stir. :)
> >
> >There are over 350 people subscribed to this mailing list now, and more
> >subscriptions coming in already.  For now, I will keep the list
> >unmoderated, so let's all please be very respectful of volume... keep it
> >down as much as possible, because for one thing, we want to not just
> >talk on the mailing list, but start building something on the wiki. :)
> >
> >I intend to copy everyone in a day or two as well to an
> >announcements-only list so that if the volume here gets too high, people
> >can choose to leave here but choose to stay on the low volume list just
> >to stay in touch.
> >
> >So first a few words about 3 sections that I think we can and should
> >build on the site, all of which seem to me to be equally important...
> >
> >1. Invitations and instructions and guidance for volunteers and
> >campaigns to get started building their own wikia sites.  I suspect we
> >will quickly learn from some brave experimenters what kinds of things on
> >each of those sites makes the most sense.  (Position papers and meetup
> >planning are two examples that seem obvious to me.)
> >
> >2.  Issues - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations of various
> >campaign issues, the point here is to give voters a place to come for
> >basic information about active issues... this differs from Wikipedia
> >articles on the same issues, because we are not talking about a full
> >encyclopedia article, but more of a "voter guide" to the issue.
> >
> >3. Voter guide to candidates - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations
> >of all candidates, broken down by region, office, etc.... also different
> >from Wikipedia in that these are neutral statements about the candidate
> >from the point of view of learning about them for the current election,
> >i.e. more of a focus on campaign platform.  We may want to consider as
> >well trying to do a pair of "pro" and "con" sidebar articles...
> >
> >---
> >
> >for me what make sense is that the central Campaigns Wikia site should
> >be informational and nonpartisan and neutral, and focussed in a very
> >strong way on outreach and involvement... helping ordinary people learn
> >how to get involved.
> >
> >Then, individual campaign wikias are a totally different matter.  Here
> >the social norm for each of these should be that they are *supportive*
> >of the candidate... these are social spaces *for the supporters*.  I am
> >pretty sure that if we work hard to generate a wiki spirit, we will see
> >good people of various political persuasions working in good faith to
> >help even people of different political persuasions to build better 
> >sites...
> >
> >Anyway, welcome, this is pretty cool. :)
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >#######################################################################
> >#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
> >#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
> >#######################################################################
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> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 2
> >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 18:36:31 -0500
> >From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
> >To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >Message-ID: <44AD9E7F.7060507 at wikia.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> >Pete Ashdown wrote:
> > > In my experience running a campaign wiki, registration is needed along
> > > with administrative approval.  I went from completely open down to this,
> > > due to the spamming and abuse.  If I had an army of editors staying the
> > > abuse, then I would go back to completely open, but as it is, I have
> > > other things I need to do in running a campaign.
> >
> >One of the things that I hope very much that we can offer to campaigns
> >like yours is exactly that army of editors.  At least from my experience
> >at Wikipedia, there are a TON of people who care more about civil
> >discourse than about pushing a particular point of view.
> >
> > > I compare it to the town hall meeting.  All are welcome to attend
> > > (unlike some recent town hall meetings by American politicians), but if
> > > you act like an obnoxious jerk, then you'll be thrown out.
> >
> >Exactly.  My view is that we can build a healthy central community of
> >people who care about enriching the political discourse, so that a site
> >like yours can be opened back up... with a strong community to defend it
> >from attacks.
> >
> >Small wikis always have a tough time dealing with spam and other abuse.
> >  But larger ones can help each other out.
> >
> >Very counterintuitive given the poisonous political environment, but
> >after years of experience in the wiki world, I know there are more good
> >people than bad.  To me it seems perfectly sensible that we would see
> >democrats helping republicans, and republicans helping democrats, to
> >have better wikis.... because good people on both sides prefer to have a
> >respectful dialog rather than vandalism.
> >
> >--Jimbo
> >-------------- next part --------------
> >A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> >Name: jwales.vcf
> >Type: text/x-vcard
> >Size: 211 bytes
> >Desc: not available
> >Url : 
>
>http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/campaigns-l/attachments/20060706/8880ede5/jwales-0001.vcf
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 3
> >Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 02:16:55 +0200
> >From: "Erik Moeller" <eloquence at gmail.com>
> >Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
> >To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >Message-ID:
> >	<b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522 at mail.gmail.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> >This is an interesting project, and I hope it will be successful
> >(though it's not quite clear to me yet what it's trying to be
> >successful at ;-). Certainly Jimmy has demonstrated that he has a
> >powerful social network at his disposal. He just needs to post on his
> >blog and he'll have a flash mob showing up for tea! ;-)
> >
> >Right now the frontpage and content is very US-centric, which is not
> >surprising given the way the news about the site has propagated. I
> >wonder whether any thought has been put into whether and how to
> >internationalize the project yet. In Wikipedia, the project is split
> >across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
> >best split across countries, such as:
> >
> >campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
> >campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
> >
> >Of course, many countries have multiple official languages, so you might 
> >need
> >
> >campaigns.ca-fr.wikia.com => Canada, French
> >campaigns.ca-en.wikia.com => Canada, English
> >
> >The URLs tend to get a bit awful - if the project grows, perhaps it
> >should get its own domain name. Does this approach seem sensible
> >otherwise? If so, it might be good to have a page where people can
> >sign up if they are interested in a campaigns wiki(a) for a particular
> >country/region.
> >
> >Erik
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 4
> >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 01:23:48 +0100
> >From: "BLueRibbon" <blribbon at fastmail.fm>
> >Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
> >To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >Message-ID: <1152231828.19918.265467617 at webmail.messagingengine.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> >
> >
> >On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 02:16:55 +0200, "Erik Moeller" <eloquence at gmail.com>
> >said:
> >
> > > Right now the frontpage and content is very US-centric, which is not
> > > surprising given the way the news about the site has propagated. I
> > > wonder whether any thought has been put into whether and how to
> > > internationalize the project yet. In Wikipedia, the project is split
> > > across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
> > > best split across countries, such as:
> > >
> > > campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
> > > campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
> > >
> > > Of course, many countries have multiple official languages, so you might
> > > need
> > >
> > > campaigns.ca-fr.wikia.com => Canada, French
> > > campaigns.ca-en.wikia.com => Canada, English
> > >
> > > The URLs tend to get a bit awful - if the project grows, perhaps it
> > > should get its own domain name. Does this approach seem sensible
> > > otherwise? If so, it might be good to have a page where people can
> > > sign up if they are interested in a campaigns wiki(a) for a particular
> > > country/region.
> >
> >Hmm, it would be a good idea, but those URLs are beginning to look more
> >like browser strings than a web address ;)
> >I think a new domain would work better, as you suggested.
> >
> >~ BLueRibbon
> >
> > > Erik
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >--
> >  ~ BL Ribbon
> >   blribbon at fastmail.fm
> >
> >--
> >http://www.fastmail.fm - I mean, what is it about a decent email service?
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 5
> >Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 17:48:19 -0700 (PDT)
> >From: Elena Barskaya <barskaya at yahoo.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
> >To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >Message-ID: <20060707004819.49970.qmail at web55615.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >Yepp, toatlay agree.
> >   Don't forget about Russia.
> >   But then again it's not only about discussing local politics, it's about 
> >exchenging knowledge betwen countries.
> >
> >Elena
> >
> >Erik Moeller <eloquence at gmail.com> wrote:
> >   This is an interesting project, and I hope it will be successful
> >(though it's not quite clear to me yet what it's trying to be
> >successful at ;-). Certainly Jimmy has demonstrated that he has a
> >powerful social network at his disposal. He just needs to post on his
> >blog and he'll have a flash mob showing up for tea! ;-)
> >
> >Right now the frontpage and content is very US-centric, which is not
> >surprising given the way the news about the site has propagated. I
> >wonder whether any thought has been put into whether and how to
> >internationalize the project yet. In Wikipedia, the project is split
> >across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
> >best split across countries, such as:
> >
> >campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
> >campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
> >
> >Of course, many countries have multiple official languages, so you might 
> >need
> >
> >campaigns.ca-fr.wikia.com => Canada, French
> >campaigns.ca-en.wikia.com => Canada, English
> >
> >The URLs tend to get a bit awful - if the project grows, perhaps it
> >should get its own domain name. Does this approach seem sensible
> >otherwise? If so, it might be good to have a page where people can
> >sign up if they are interested in a campaigns wiki(a) for a particular
> >country/region.
> >
> >Erik
> >_______________________________________________
> >Campaigns-l mailing list
> >Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> >
> >
> >Elena
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates 
> >starting at 1?/min.
> >-------------- next part --------------
> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >URL: 
>
>http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/campaigns-l/attachments/20060707/011cdcfa/attachment-0001.html
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 6
> >Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 21:00:50 -0400
> >From: "Bob" <dogclem at shentel.net>
> >Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
> >To: <campaigns-l at wikia.com>
> >Message-ID: <00bc01c6a160$cde7f120$cf606fcc at bobsrig>
> >Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
> >
> >Mr. Wales, You can call me Josey. and I'm with you chief.
> >
> >First thing seems to me should happen, the political operative types should
> >hit the big web/blog sites pushing the story.
> >
> >Nice if we could have a central committe and division of labor, though.
> >
> > >From personal experience, it's time consuming to take an internet story,
> >work it hard, and get it to end up above the fold on Olbermann.
> >
> >Take Care,
> >
> >Josey
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 7
> >Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 02:48:38 +0100 (BST)
> >From: Morten Lange <morten7an at yahoo.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
> >To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >Message-ID: <20060707014838.89557.qmail at web51004.mail.yahoo.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> >
> >--- Elena Barskaya <barskaya at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Yepp, toatlay agree.
> > >   Don't forget about Russia.
> > >   But then again it's not only about discussing local politics, it's 
> >about
> > > exchenging knowledge betwen countries.
> > >
> > > Elena
> > >
> >
> >That is what I thought, also : The globalisation process is strong, on many
> >levels, and that certainly goes also for politics. Politics in the US can 
> >have
> >so far- reaching consequences that parts of it instantly influences the 
> >global
> >political arena. So a discussion of US-politics can often become a 
> >discussion
> >about consequences outsde the US, directly and indirectly.
> >
> >I think the global and international standpoint, discussed using English, 
> >is
> >likely to be the most interesting and fruitful part of the "campaigns" wiki
> >project. There is a question of compatibility of the "global" discussions,
> >though. "Western" v.s "non-western", "cultural imperialism" etc.
> >
> >
> >But I think the most important issues are truly international, and 
> >increasingly
> >so, like  welfare, environmental problems/looming disaster, monetary policy 
> >and
> >trade, and many of the solutions to our common problems. Perhaps even basic
> >human rights ....
> >
> >So, in conclusion, if the "campaigns" wiki is split across countries, I 
> >think
> >we also need a "domain" set apart for the global and perhaps domains for
> >regions/parts of hemispheres or "cultures".
> >
> >
> >Best Regards,
> >Morten Lange
> >
> >P.S.
> >I?m new here. Hope I have not misunderstood the project. The announcement 
> >was
> >quite open-ended.
> >
> >
> > > Erik Moeller <eloquence at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >   This is an interesting project, and I hope it will be successful
> > > (though it's not quite clear to me yet what it's trying to be
> > > successful at ;-). Certainly Jimmy has demonstrated that he has a
> > > powerful social network at his disposal. He just needs to post on his
> > > blog and he'll have a flash mob showing up for tea! ;-)
> > >
> > > Right now the frontpage and content is very US-centric, which is not
> > > surprising given the way the news about the site has propagated. I
> > > wonder whether any thought has been put into whether and how to
> > > internationalize the project yet. In Wikipedia, the project is split
> > > across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
> > > best split across countries, such as:
> > >
> > > campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
> > > campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
> > >
> > > Of course, many countries have multiple official languages, so you might 
> >need
> > >
> > > campaigns.ca-fr.wikia.com => Canada, French
> > > campaigns.ca-en.wikia.com => Canada, English
> > >
> > > The URLs tend to get a bit awful - if the project grows, perhaps it
> > > should get its own domain name. Does this approach seem sensible
> > > otherwise? If so, it might be good to have a page where people can
> > > sign up if they are interested in a campaigns wiki(a) for a particular
> > > country/region.
> > >
> > > Erik
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Elena
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great 
> >rates
> > > starting at 1?/min.> _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >___________________________________________________________
> >All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and 
> >ease of use." - PC Magazine
> >http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 8
> >Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:57:26 -0400
> >From: "George Murray" <george.murray at gmail.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
> >To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >Message-ID:
> >	<3fdb2c400607061957h482eb329o1cd376cd37faf386 at mail.gmail.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >I think my ideas are too far out of the wiki format/philosophy. I am kind 
> >of
> >out of touch I guess. Anyway, goodluck. :)
> >
> >On 7/6/06, Bob <dogclem at shentel.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Mr. Wales, You can call me Josey. and I'm with you chief.
> > >
> > > First thing seems to me should happen, the political operative types
> > > should
> > > hit the big web/blog sites pushing the story.
> > >
> > > Nice if we could have a central committe and division of labor, though.
> > >
> > > >From personal experience, it's time consuming to take an internet 
> >story,
> > > work it hard, and get it to end up above the fold on Olbermann.
> > >
> > > Take Care,
> > >
> > > Josey
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> >-------------- next part --------------
> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >URL: 
>
>http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/campaigns-l/attachments/20060707/8b47895d/attachment.html
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Campaigns-l mailing list
> >Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> >
> >End of Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 11
> >******************************************
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> 



		
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From morten7an at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  7 10:11:02 2006
From: morten7an at yahoo.com (Morten Lange)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 11:11:02 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060707101102.59676.qmail@web51009.mail.yahoo.com>





--- "Gordon P. Hemsley" <gphemsley at gmail.com> wrote:

> Keep in mind that both DE and FR are country codes, as well. And
> you'll notice that the other two URLs mentioned above for Canada are
> CA-en and CA-fr, not vice versa.
> 

To my mind the most pressing need is to find the prefix(es) for the US (English
and Spanish). I feel strongly that the top-level wiki should be for
international / global issues and have a long-term character.


> Also, it should also be noted that the URLs should probably be:
> de.campaigns.wikia.com
> fr.campaigns.wikia.com
> ca-en.campaigns.wikia.com
> ca-fr.campaigns.wikia.com
> 
> On 7/6/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 7/7/06, Erik Moeller <eloquence at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In Wikipedia, the project is split
> > > across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
> > > best split across countries, such as:
> > >
> > > campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
> > > campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
> >
> > I'd rather not mix up language codes with countries. If the wiki is
> > really for France and not French, it makes more sense for it to say
> > France than fr. Though something like wahlkampf.wikia.com might make
> > more sense than using the English word for a wiki that's mostly in
> > German anyway.
> >
> > Angela
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Gordon P. Hemsley
> gphemsley at gmail.com
> http://www.lttp.net/ ?&#8364;? http://cmsforme.sourceforge.net/
> > _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> 



	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine 
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From politics at nymar.demon.co.uk  Fri Jul  7 09:56:36 2006
From: politics at nymar.demon.co.uk (politics at nymar.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:56:36 +0100
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Intro and Ideas (Take Three!)
Message-ID: <E1Fyn4e-000Eql-Kh@pr-webmail-2.demon.net>

[ Third time lucky trying to send this to the mailing list, some of these
  may have been discussed by now. By all means let's have a forum.
]


Hi All!

Quick intro; Nick Fortune, IT pro, free software fan and UK citizen.
Been active on a few fora over the years, but never quite got involved
in Wikidom.

I've been looking for a decent forum to discuss some political issues for
a while now. This new project sounds very promising, and I'd quite like to
be involved.

To which end, I have a few ideas and suggestions for directions you
might consider taking. With the possible exception of the first one,
none of what follows should be read as being "instead of" what's
been discussed so far, They're all "as well as"


* International Scope
        I think it would be a shame to limit this to US politics.
        Some issues are inherently cross border - the obvious
        climate change and copyright reform spring to mind - but
        they are the obvious ones. The benefit comes from the
        inobvious issues - the ones that I'd hope to see emerge
        if we can structure this thing properly.

        Also, lots of potential contributers are not going to be US
        resident, yours truly included. Making it a US talking shop
        will rather limit its appeal to a lot of potential contributers.

        As far as I can see, the Wiki structure should be able to organise
        all this heirarchically. We can have a world issue section, a US one,
        a UK one (possibly not next in importance, but then I'm biased)
        and so forth...

        One more point on this, which I'll save for later.

* Electoral reform
        Personally, I think electoral reform is the only issue worth
        talking about for the next elections. I think the two party
        system is to easy for various vested interests to game, and
        I think some of them are becoming too good at it. The voters
        are only significant once every 4 years (or five over here)
        and inbetween we have lots of expensive PR types wineing and
        dining our elected leaders. Guess who gets listened to the most?

        We also have the problem that increasingly, both parties are
        pre "wined and dined" so that which ever side wins an election
        they're going to arrive pre-persuaded to a certain course of action.
        I think of this as Punch and Judy politics: they may make a lot of noise
        and squabble over what to do with the sausages, but at the end of the
        day it's the same puppeteer workng both of them.

        This in its turn encourages the rise of political lying, as
        policiticians increasinly say whatever they think will get them
        elected, without any intention of doing as they say, except perhaps
        by co-incidence.

        As an example - Tony Blair of the allegedly left wing Labour Party
        has been continuing the exact same policies executed by Maggie
        Thatcher when she headed a hard right Tory government. If you consider
        at what they _did_ rather than what they _said_, then the only
        difference you're likely to find is that Maggie made better use of
        the handbag.

        If we're ever going to make our representatives accountable to us
        for more than 1 day in every 1461 then we need to change the means
        by which we elect, and to provide means by which we can unelect them
        if they fail to uphold their commitments.

        OK, that turned into rather more of a rant than I'd intended.
        Let's move swiftly on...

New Political Structures
        Let's have space for some debate on new political mechanisms
        beyond simply electing and unelecting candidates. 
        
        Questions like "do we need to have the same person represent
        us for every issue?" "What stops us from making every issue a
        referendum?" People are very cautious about discussing such changes
        and rightly so. But I think we could discuss them.
        
        I'd also like to see gaming exercises organised where we set up
        model systems using some of the proposed ideas and then try and
        break them. Ultimately, I'd like to design looking for robustness
        and resistance to corruption.
        
        It might also be interesting to game some existing structures
        the same way looking for a better understanding of the ways in
        which current systems are broken
        
Modular Manifestos
        There's this brain dead idea in politics that everyone in the same
        party has to have the same position on everything. It's stupid
        and as the parties increasinly abandon any philosophical basis
        that might once have guided them, some of the policies imposed
        make less and less sense. 
        
        A quick example. In the UK we have (had anyway) two dominant
        parties. The Tories are tradionally right wing, Labour tradionally
        leftist. And yet they're both expected to have a consisten
        internal policy on whether the UK should or should not be a
        member of the EU. Why, for heaven's sake? It's a completely
        orthogonal issue to the tradional. The result, unsurpisingly,
        is that both parties have been deeply divided on the issue,
        which has been the cause of a lot of needless political
        turmoil.

        So, I'd like to counter this by building a collection of single
        issue manifestos. Basically, take an issue, define the problem,
        state the desired result, and how you propose we go about getting
        it. Manifestos should also include a tangible deliverable that we
        can use to determine if the goal has been met, and a timescale
        within which the plan will operate.  As optional extras, a
        fallback plan if it turns out the program hasn't worked and a
        buget for implementation.

        The idea is to have lots of these, and to structure them so that
        people can build detailed personal manifestos by picking
        modules from the list and posting them. I'm vaguely aware of
        some of the behind-the-scenes structures that grew up among
        wikipedians and I think this could tie in with that quite
        nicely.

        What I'd like to see emerge here is a foundry for forging new
        political movements and new politcal parties for the Twenty
        First Century.  I think this fits very well with what Jimmy
        describes in his introduction.

        I mentioned one other benefit of internation scope - if we do thus
        right, we should see emerging international political movements.

At the end of the day, this is a chance to look at some new possibilities
and I think it would be a shame to limit this purely to providing resources
for those working within existing structures.

Let's use this thing to its full potential. Let's play mix and match with some
ideas. Let's feed them back, peer review them, and then see what we get.

We may surprise ourselves.




From gphemsley at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 10:30:31 2006
From: gphemsley at gmail.com (Gordon P. Hemsley)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 06:30:31 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <20060707101102.59676.qmail@web51009.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060707101102.59676.qmail@web51009.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fda8f3c50607070330w472f5714ofcbdccac8aeb8d4@mail.gmail.com>

Well, you already have it: US. Combine it with the languages, and you get:
us-en.campaigns.wikia.com
us-es.campaigns.wikia.com

Unless you want to go even deeper:
ny.us-en.campaigns.wikia.com

But that gets tedious very quickly.

On 7/7/06, Morten Lange <morten7an at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> --- "Gordon P. Hemsley" <gphemsley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Keep in mind that both DE and FR are country codes, as well. And
> > you'll notice that the other two URLs mentioned above for Canada are
> > CA-en and CA-fr, not vice versa.
> >
>
> To my mind the most pressing need is to find the prefix(es) for the US (English
> and Spanish). I feel strongly that the top-level wiki should be for
> international / global issues and have a long-term character.
>
>
> > Also, it should also be noted that the URLs should probably be:
> > de.campaigns.wikia.com
> > fr.campaigns.wikia.com
> > ca-en.campaigns.wikia.com
> > ca-fr.campaigns.wikia.com
> >
> > On 7/6/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 7/7/06, Erik Moeller <eloquence at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In Wikipedia, the project is split
> > > > across languages -- it seems to me that something like this might be
> > > > best split across countries, such as:
> > > >
> > > > campaigns.de.wikia.com => Germany
> > > > campaigns.fr.wikia.com => France
> > >
> > > I'd rather not mix up language codes with countries. If the wiki is
> > > really for France and not French, it makes more sense for it to say
> > > France than fr. Though something like wahlkampf.wikia.com might make
> > > more sense than using the English word for a wiki that's mostly in
> > > German anyway.
> > >
> > > Angela
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gordon P. Hemsley
> > gphemsley at gmail.com
> > http://www.lttp.net/ ??? http://cmsforme.sourceforge.net/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine
> http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>


-- 
Gordon P. Hemsley
gphemsley at gmail.com
http://www.lttp.net/ ? http://cmsforme.sourceforge.net/

From politics at nymar.demon.co.uk  Fri Jul  7 10:48:25 2006
From: politics at nymar.demon.co.uk (politics at nymar.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 11:48:25 +0100
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Matricies
Message-ID: <E1Fynsn-000FJD-19@pr-webmail-2.demon.net>

Morten Lange:
> I have been thinking of the need for such pro-et                           
> contra matrices regarding several hotly debated issues, like the Greenhouse                           
> effect, methods for curbing traffic deaths, the scientific bicycle helmet                             
> debate and more.                                                                                      

mmm, yes... but if this lives up to its true potential, we're going to need 
more than just pro- and con-

As an example: climate change. Some of the questions to be considered:

* Is it happening?
* Human or Natural Causes
** If "human" is it useful to assign blame
*** If so, to whom, and to what end
* Should something be done
** If not, what criteria to evaluate the correctness of the decision
** If so, what exactly?
***and how much, over how long and paid for by whom?

Now, I know that no-one was proposing a debate entitled 
"climate change - for or against?" and I'm sure that no one would
try and organise the issues quites so simplisticly. All the same
that's just the sort of thinking that gets trotted out in too many
debates. Probably because it's easier to cloud the issues (or just CYA)
if you can switch tracks in mid debate.

I believe that binary thinking is a disease of modern politics.  It seems 
everything must be reduced to a binary choice with two wrong answers. 
This project has the potential to raise awareness of the complexities of
many issues, and (by sructuring the issues clearly) to deonstrate
that complex and confusing need not mean the same thing.

Nick Fortune



From jwales at wikia.com  Fri Jul  7 12:15:43 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 07:15:43 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Welcome; getting down to work :)
In-Reply-To: <94355ecc0607062225m62c14941wd447ecd952b2b41d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44AD9AF1.4060208@wikia.com>
	<94355ecc0607062225m62c14941wd447ecd952b2b41d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AE506F.7010307@wikia.com>

Lenny Domnitser wrote:
> On 7/6/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>> 2.  Issues - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations of various
>> campaign issues, the point here is to give voters a place to come for
>> basic information about active issues.
> 
> I don't know how neutral this can realistically be. The very selection
> of what the issues are is a partisan matter. Issues can be brought up
> to divert attention or to force stance-taking before an election.
> 
>> Anyway, welcome, this is pretty cool. :)
> 
> Yeah. Thanks.

I don't see any problem with neutrality regarding the selection of what
the issues are.  This is a wiki, so we are not constrained by space.  As
to how politicians might use issues, well, I think they are
significantly less able to do anything particularly bad when voters are
educated in the basic facts surrounding various issues or proposals.

There is no magic bullet, of course.

--Jimbo
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From jwales at wikia.com  Fri Jul  7 12:23:29 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 07:23:29 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <c98f820f0607062310h2fbb9736u7696083d44fc0dae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060707054411.53E07B98571@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
	<c98f820f0607062310h2fbb9736u7696083d44fc0dae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AE5241.1060703@wikia.com>

Maurice McGinley (Ovis) wrote:
>> On 7/6/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>> > 2.  Issues - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations of various
>> > campaign issues, the point here is to give voters a place to come for
>> > basic information about active issues.
> 
> Other posts have suggested:
> 1. neutrality is difficulty and unlikely, and
> 2. a registration requirement may be inevitable.
> 
> I agree.

I have a lot of experience with wikis, and people who are new to wikis
always think that neutrality is difficult and unlikely (but usually, it
is not as hard as people think), and people always think that a
registration requirement is inevitable (but usually, it is not).

> Further, I would like to see this used as a forum for policy
> development, where known agents with public agendas and agreed goals
> discuss and develop policy in the sunlight. ...An open-source policy
> incubator. The challenge will be to allow as many as possible to
> participate while maintaining the quality of debate.

This is what wikis are really good at.

--Jimbo

-- 
#######################################################################
#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
#######################################################################
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From jwales at wikia.com  Fri Jul  7 12:27:30 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 07:27:30 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <acbec1a40607062316r49c0a66bp8a44ce88b6d70a69@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>	<3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>	<acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>	<331548370607061402x83a7c58k52b2556ab2c8f7b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<acbec1a40607062316r49c0a66bp8a44ce88b6d70a69@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AE5332.40000@wikia.com>

Chris Chiasson wrote:
>> Example:
>> http://www.actionforum.com/forum/?forum_id=266
> 
> I thought most of the comments in that thread were one-sided and
> resorted to name-calling without much proof to back it up... and I
> lean to the left. A right winger would not even make it past the
> second comment.
> 
> This is interesting to me because the comments were highly rated.

This is a classic example of what is wrong with voting systems for
moderation of comments. :)

Do you know the film "12 Angry Men"?  In this film, a single juror is
able to slowly but surely with reason and logic persuade a group of
people who are originally ready to convict someone without much thinking
to come around to a different perspective.

Wikis are like that.  The "mutually assured destruction" nature of the
strategic interaction forces the end result towards a broad consensus
view which is acceptable to a wide range of people, rather than a mere
"popularity contest".

--Jimbo
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From george.murray at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 12:41:23 2006
From: george.murray at gmail.com (George Murray)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 08:41:23 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Some Thoughts
In-Reply-To: <44AE5332.40000@wikia.com>
References: <d15e4d100607052229p6219d6f2ncaaf08bc6e84e9e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf451ba40607060955l4f35ea6aie91cd5f6264c03f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607061002v6b3be989xa38720108a580e29@mail.gmail.com>
	<3fdb2c400607061055w7fc5e592y5c47dcb0e020e8e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<acbec1a40607061346u2b993ecew9415a46af8b5306f@mail.gmail.com>
	<331548370607061402x83a7c58k52b2556ab2c8f7b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<acbec1a40607062316r49c0a66bp8a44ce88b6d70a69@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AE5332.40000@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <3fdb2c400607070541p765b7171m5fd5407b1a95d696@mail.gmail.com>

I disagree, I think that the voting system for moderation of comments is
only as good as it's contributors and this is just MoveOn people. I think
we'd see a very different outcome if it were wikians with a clear criteria
for moderation other than just who made the best Bush joke. ;)

On 7/7/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
> Chris Chiasson wrote:
> >> Example:
> >> http://www.actionforum.com/forum/?forum_id=266
> >
> > I thought most of the comments in that thread were one-sided and
> > resorted to name-calling without much proof to back it up... and I
> > lean to the left. A right winger would not even make it past the
> > second comment.
> >
> > This is interesting to me because the comments were highly rated.
>
> This is a classic example of what is wrong with voting systems for
> moderation of comments. :)
>
> Do you know the film "12 Angry Men"?  In this film, a single juror is
> able to slowly but surely with reason and logic persuade a group of
> people who are originally ready to convict someone without much thinking
> to come around to a different perspective.
>
> Wikis are like that.  The "mutually assured destruction" nature of the
> strategic interaction forces the end result towards a broad consensus
> view which is acceptable to a wide range of people, rather than a mere
> "popularity contest".
>
> --Jimbo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
>
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From jeenaone at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 14:00:20 2006
From: jeenaone at gmail.com (Genghis Conn)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:00:20 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Welcome; getting down to work :)
In-Reply-To: <94355ecc0607062225m62c14941wd447ecd952b2b41d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44AD9AF1.4060208@wikia.com>
	<94355ecc0607062225m62c14941wd447ecd952b2b41d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <97dfe23a0607070700w8b93a0cvb9cf7e89e6a4719a@mail.gmail.com>

In this case I think the best thing we can do is not to have a single
written piece on an issue, but instead allow the creation of dozens, each
with a different take. Since this is a wiki, unless we do something like
password protect every single hot button issue, we're going to have dozens
of partisans changing what's written, anyway.

If we let many people create their own take on an issue, then at least
people get to choose and no one can accuse the wiki of bias. Hopefully,
writers can be encouraged to put their opinions in their own section, rather
than in someone else's.

Chris Bigelow
Enfield, CT
http://connecticutlocalpolitics.blogspot.com
http://ctelection2006.pbwiki.com

On 7/7/06, Lenny Domnitser <ldrhcp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/6/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> > 2.  Issues - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations of various
> > campaign issues, the point here is to give voters a place to come for
> > basic information about active issues.
>
> I don't know how neutral this can realistically be. The very selection
> of what the issues are is a partisan matter. Issues can be brought up
> to divert attention or to force stance-taking before an election.
>
> > Anyway, welcome, this is pretty cool. :)
>
> Yeah. Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  7 14:05:23 2006
From: michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com (Michael Reitz)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 07:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Welcome; getting down to work :)
In-Reply-To: <44AE506F.7010307@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <20060707140523.27351.qmail@web55313.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Education is only part of the issue; maybe even a small part. Self interest rules. How do we get others to see the big picture. Some of the most talented and educated people I have known simply make decisions based on perceived self interest and cloud their mind from seeing reality.....michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo .com

Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:  Lenny Domnitser wrote:
> On 7/6/06, Jimmy Wales wrote:
>> 2. Issues - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations of various
>> campaign issues, the point here is to give voters a place to come for
>> basic information about active issues.
> 
> I don't know how neutral this can realistically be. The very selection
> of what the issues are is a partisan matter. Issues can be brought up
> to divert attention or to force stance-taking before an election.
> 
>> Anyway, welcome, this is pretty cool. :)
> 
> Yeah. Thanks.

I don't see any problem with neutrality regarding the selection of what
the issues are. This is a wiki, so we are not constrained by space. As
to how politicians might use issues, well, I think they are
significantly less able to do anything particularly bad when voters are
educated in the basic facts surrounding various issues or proposals.

There is no magic bullet, of course.

--Jimbo
begin:vcard
fn:Jimmy Wales
n:Wales;Jimmy
org:Wikia, Inc. 
email;internet:jwales at wikia.com
title:Chairman
tel;work:+1-727-231-0101
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.wikia.com/
version:2.1
end:vcard

_______________________________________________
Campaigns-l mailing list
Campaigns-l at wikia.com
http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l


 		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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From michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  7 14:07:21 2006
From: michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com (Michael Reitz)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 07:07:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <44AE5241.1060703@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <20060707140721.79087.qmail@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Neutrality is toughest position to hold and yet remain active.
   
  michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com

Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
  Maurice McGinley (Ovis) wrote:
>> On 7/6/06, Jimmy Wales wrote:
>> > 2. Issues - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations of various
>> > campaign issues, the point here is to give voters a place to come for
>> > basic information about active issues.
> 
> Other posts have suggested:
> 1. neutrality is difficulty and unlikely, and
> 2. a registration requirement may be inevitable.
> 
> I agree.

I have a lot of experience with wikis, and people who are new to wikis
always think that neutrality is difficult and unlikely (but usually, it
is not as hard as people think), and people always think that a
registration requirement is inevitable (but usually, it is not).

> Further, I would like to see this used as a forum for policy
> development, where known agents with public agendas and agreed goals
> discuss and develop policy in the sunlight. ...An open-source policy
> incubator. The challenge will be to allow as many as possible to
> participate while maintaining the quality of debate.

This is what wikis are really good at.

--Jimbo

-- 
#######################################################################
# Office: 1-727-231-0101 | Free Culture and Free Knowledge #
# http://www.wikipedia.org | Building a free world #
#######################################################################
begin:vcard
fn:Jimmy Wales
n:Wales;Jimmy
org:Wikia, Inc. 
email;internet:jwales at wikia.com
title:Chairman
tel;work:+1-727-231-0101
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.wikia.com/
version:2.1
end:vcard

_______________________________________________
Campaigns-l mailing list
Campaigns-l at wikia.com
http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l


 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
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From jwales at wikia.com  Fri Jul  7 14:20:40 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 09:20:40 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Welcome; getting down to work :)
In-Reply-To: <97dfe23a0607070700w8b93a0cvb9cf7e89e6a4719a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44AD9AF1.4060208@wikia.com>	<94355ecc0607062225m62c14941wd447ecd952b2b41d@mail.gmail.com>
	<97dfe23a0607070700w8b93a0cvb9cf7e89e6a4719a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AE6DB8.5030109@wikia.com>

Genghis Conn wrote:
> In this case I think the best thing we can do is not to have a single
> written piece on an issue, but instead allow the creation of dozens,
> each with a different take. Since this is a wiki, unless we do something
> like password protect every single hot button issue, we're going to have
> dozens of partisans changing what's written, anyway.
> 
> If we let many people create their own take on an issue, then at least
> people get to choose and no one can accuse the wiki of bias. Hopefully,
> writers can be encouraged to put their opinions in their own section,
> rather than in someone else's.

This will be my last post for today, and I again urge all of us (even
wordy people like me!) to be careful to restrict our volume on this list.

Please, everyone who reads these words, go RIGHT NOW :-) and sign in on
the wiki and make a quick edit at least to your own userpage saying who
you are and what you are interested in. :)

Now, to substance.  I think that wikis work a lot better than people
realize.  It is generally not the case that "we're going to have dozens
of partisans changing what's written anyway".  Socially speaking, wikis
are very different from blogs, and people of good will from diverse
viewpoints, as it turns out, *are* able to collaborate in good will on
documents without engaging in the mindless process of switching them
back and forth between competing viewpoints.

(Such behavior can get people banned from a community.)

And while I think it can be fine to have pages where people do put their
own opinions, this is not central to the incentive structure of wiki,
and not generally a very productive thing to do.  I hope that we can
transcend some of the bad practices of the net and realize that with a
wiki in our hands, we can do more than just be a strangely-programmed
web forum.

There are tons of places on the net for people to engage in flame wars
and posting of individual opinion pieces without community input.  Let's
discourage that sort of behavior and keep everyone always focussed on
positive mutual contribution and building for the future.

--Jimbo
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From beesley at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 14:39:45 2006
From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 00:39:45 +1000
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Welcome; getting down to work :)
In-Reply-To: <44AE6DB8.5030109@wikia.com>
References: <44AD9AF1.4060208@wikia.com>
	<94355ecc0607062225m62c14941wd447ecd952b2b41d@mail.gmail.com>
	<97dfe23a0607070700w8b93a0cvb9cf7e89e6a4719a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AE6DB8.5030109@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <8b722b800607070739w23048cd0na5592f4cf66b47ca@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/8/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:

> Please, everyone who reads these words, go RIGHT NOW :-) and sign in on
> the wiki and make a quick edit at least to your own userpage saying who
> you are and what you are interested in. :)

Some advice if you don't know how to do that:

The link to your page, if you're logged in, is
http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Mypage

If you're not logged in, you can do so at
http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Userlogin

If you need help with editing the wiki, please ask us at
http://campaigns.wikia.com/index.php?title=Forum:Wiki_Help or read the
tutorial at http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Tutorial

Angela.


From eja at samurai.com  Fri Jul  7 14:56:23 2006
From: eja at samurai.com (Elizabeth J Allen)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:56:23 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>

On 7-Jul-06, at 5:37 AM, Gordon P. Hemsley wrote:
> Keep in mind that both DE and FR are country codes, as well. And
> you'll notice that the other two URLs mentioned above for Canada are
> CA-en and CA-fr, not vice versa.
>
> Also, it should also be noted that the URLs should probably be:
> de.campaigns.wikia.com
> fr.campaigns.wikia.com
> ca-en.campaigns.wikia.com
> ca-fr.campaigns.wikia.com

Shall we change the home URL to us.campaigns.wikia.com or do we  
assume that the United States is the default location for  
campaigns.wikia.com?

What does this say about the assumptions being made by Americans on  
this issue?


Elizabeth (from Canada)
--
Elizabeth J. Allen
Technical Writing, Editing, and Consulting
Samurai Consulting Inc.
eja at samurai.com





From noel.whelan at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 16:09:05 2006
From: noel.whelan at gmail.com (Noel Whelan)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 11:09:05 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Too much emails
Message-ID: <1eb3081c0607070909k34b36022n9fb63a4746a828c7@mail.gmail.com>

I think this is worth considering, too.

On 7/7/06, campaigns-l-request at wikia.com <campaigns-l-request at wikia.com>
wrote:
>
>
> Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 07:45:17 +0100
> From: "Miguel Duarte" <home at miguelduarte.net>
> Subject: [Campaigns-l] Too much emails
> To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
> Message-ID:
>         <30580f410607062345k4560a650se2d0dc8b314db807 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Ahh
>
> These are simply too much emails. I should at least receive only one
> digest a day. I think on the last 24 hours I received more than 10
> emails.
>
> My first idea: Please, move this discussion to a F?rum.
>
> Miguel
>
>
>
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From mark.slater at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 16:18:28 2006
From: mark.slater at gmail.com (Mark Slater)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 18:18:28 +0200
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>
	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>
Message-ID: <54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/06, Elizabeth J Allen <eja at samurai.com> wrote:
> Shall we change the home URL to us.campaigns.wikia.com or do we
> assume that the United States is the default location for
> campaigns.wikia.com?

One shouldn't assume any nationality. I'd say make the users choose,
instead of creating yet another America-by-default website.

-- 
Mark Slater


From pmocek-list-wikia at mocek.org  Fri Jul  7 16:10:08 2006
From: pmocek-list-wikia at mocek.org (Phil Mocek)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 09:10:08 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] keep discussion on list or newsgroup - no forums
	[was: Too much emails]
In-Reply-To: <30580f410607062345k4560a650se2d0dc8b314db807@mail.gmail.com>
References: <30580f410607062345k4560a650se2d0dc8b314db807@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060707161008.GA11505@mocek.org>

On Fri, Jul 07, 2006 at 07:45:17AM +0100, Miguel Duarte wrote:
> My first idea: Please, move this discussion to a Forum.

Please don't move to Web forums.  They have non-standard
interfaces (different user interfaces for different forum
software), require repeated polling of a Web site for updates, and
can disappear at the whim of site administrators.  In my opinion,
any discussion in a Web forum is better suited for a Usenet
newsgroup.

Complaints of too much volume on a mailing list usually indicate
a lack of understanding of how to filter incoming e-mail.  Miguel, 
there is information about setting up filters so certain messages
(such as those that come from this list) sent to your Gmail
account bypass your inbox, are automatically labeled, or both, at
the following URI:

<http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=6579>

-- 
Phil Mocek


From simonmcc at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 17:25:10 2006
From: simonmcc at gmail.com (Simon McCaughey)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 18:25:10 +0100
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Too much emails
In-Reply-To: <1eb3081c0607070909k34b36022n9fb63a4746a828c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1eb3081c0607070909k34b36022n9fb63a4746a828c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46e456080607071025y7a788280uc2ac38466beabf42@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, a forum is a good solution for a problem like this! It makes it
easier to follow threaded discussions, and provides simple distinction
for different topic groups...

Simon

On 07/07/06, Noel Whelan <noel.whelan at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think this is worth considering, too.
>
> On 7/7/06, campaigns-l-request at wikia.com < campaigns-l-request at wikia.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 07:45:17 +0100
> > From: "Miguel Duarte" <home at miguelduarte.net>
> > Subject: [Campaigns-l] Too much emails
> > To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > Message-ID:
> >
> <30580f410607062345k4560a650se2d0dc8b314db807 at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > Ahh
> >
> > These are simply too much emails. I should at least receive only one
> > digest a day. I think on the last 24 hours I received more than 10
> > emails.
> >
> > My first idea: Please, move this discussion to a F?rum.
> >
> > Miguel
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>

From lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 17:36:23 2006
From: lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com (Lord Voldemort)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 13:36:23 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Too much emails
In-Reply-To: <46e456080607071025y7a788280uc2ac38466beabf42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1eb3081c0607070909k34b36022n9fb63a4746a828c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<46e456080607071025y7a788280uc2ac38466beabf42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa62d5b70607071036p5ce97b9id75963326df6f6dd@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/06, Simon McCaughey <simonmcc at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, a forum is a good solution for a problem like this! It makes it
> easier to follow threaded discussions, and provides simple distinction
> for different topic groups...

Well, most of the discussion on the emails the past few days would be
better served if it took place on the wiki itself.  Wikia has talk
pages where threaded discussions are very easy to follow.  We just
need to get those of you that are new to wikis to try them out.  See
the help page for editing tips for more information.  Thanks. --LV


From federicomello at yahoo.it  Fri Jul  7 17:37:11 2006
From: federicomello at yahoo.it (federico mello)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 19:37:11 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] set a five mails per day rule
In-Reply-To: <20060707161008.GA11505@mocek.org>
Message-ID: <20060707173711.90296.qmail@web25414.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

sorry for my bad english.
this experiment is very important, but very hard. (political talking with who? about what? whit whic target?). I suggest to set some experimental rules about this political experimental discussion. The first mailing list rule would be to set a five mails per day rule. Every one that agree this have only to set his mailing self-evaluating the importance of  his mail.
f. 


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Il mio blog ? www.generazioneblog.it
 Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale! 
 http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com 
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From mindspillage at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 17:50:25 2006
From: mindspillage at gmail.com (Kat Walsh)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 13:50:25 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Too much emails
In-Reply-To: <46e456080607071025y7a788280uc2ac38466beabf42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1eb3081c0607070909k34b36022n9fb63a4746a828c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<46e456080607071025y7a788280uc2ac38466beabf42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8e253f560607071050j31156a68o93a8722d42caf6c@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/06, Simon McCaughey <simonmcc at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, a forum is a good solution for a problem like this! It makes it
> easier to follow threaded discussions, and provides simple distinction
> for different topic groups...
>
> Simon

There are "forums" on the wiki itself -- one for help, and one for
general discussion -- offering a sort of compromise between the wiki
mode of editing and a traditional message forum, making threaded
discussion easier:

http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Index

Hope this helps.

-Kat

-- 
http://www.wikia.com/wiki/User:Mindspillage  |  G/AIM:LucidWaking
mindspillage or mind|wandering on irc.freenode.net | email for phone
The good traveller has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving
-- Lao-Tzu        Wikia: creating communities - http://www.wikia.com


From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 18:15:22 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 11:15:22 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>
	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>
	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>

I strongly believe that the only differentiation we need is by language.
I'd love to learn more about races in the UK, Canada and Australia.  And we
need a place for spanish speaking people to talk about US elections.

This has proved itself in Wikipedia, and I don't think we need to reinvent
the wheel.

Chad


On 7/7/06, Mark Slater <mark.slater at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/7/06, Elizabeth J Allen <eja at samurai.com> wrote:
> > Shall we change the home URL to us.campaigns.wikia.com or do we
> > assume that the United States is the default location for
> > campaigns.wikia.com?
>
> One shouldn't assume any nationality. I'd say make the users choose,
> instead of creating yet another America-by-default website.
>
> --
> Mark Slater
>
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From ed.rodgers at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 18:20:07 2006
From: ed.rodgers at gmail.com (Ed Rodgers)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 14:20:07 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] set a five mails per day rule
In-Reply-To: <20060707173711.90296.qmail@web25414.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060707161008.GA11505@mocek.org>
	<20060707173711.90296.qmail@web25414.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <e23444c80607071120n4e3ce928xac76512f80e54f43@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/06, federico mello <federicomello at yahoo.it> wrote:
>  The first mailing list rule would be to set a five mails per day rule.

I've been a part of many other mailing lists, and one had a 7 posts
per day maximum when the list traffic had reached 80-100 emails per
day.  This has it's pro's and con's of censoring participation as a
con but limiting list traffic as a pro.  IMHO, The advantage of a
mailing list over a forum is that you have to actively go to the forum
whereas with a list you can pick and choose which email discussions
you participate in without having to sift through the forum structure.

a good compromise would be to have the list archived and allow forum
AND mailing list responses as i have seen done elsewhere.  that way it
becomes a matter of personal preference on whether you participate via
email or via forum. setting up response rules could help to moderate
length of forum posts so that only quoted text pertinent to the
response is involved (as above and as is commonplace in forum
discussion).


From pmocek-list-wikia at mocek.org  Fri Jul  7 18:25:45 2006
From: pmocek-list-wikia at mocek.org (Phil Mocek)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 11:25:45 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] archive this list at Gmane? [was: set a five mails
	per day rule]
In-Reply-To: <e23444c80607071120n4e3ce928xac76512f80e54f43@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060707161008.GA11505@mocek.org>
	<20060707173711.90296.qmail@web25414.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<e23444c80607071120n4e3ce928xac76512f80e54f43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060707182545.GB11505@mocek.org>

On Fri, Jul 07, 2006 at 02:20:07PM -0400, Ed Rodgers wrote:
> a good compromise would be to have the list archived and allow
> forum AND mailing list responses as i have seen done elsewhere.
> that way it becomes a matter of personal preference on whether
> you participate via email or via forum.

Gmane is a service that does something like this.  You submit a
request with some basic information about the list and then Gmane
subscribes itself to the list.  The list is then made available
via NNTP (newsgroup), RSS feed, and a Web interface.

<http://gmane.org/>

-- 
Phil Mocek


From jwales at wikia.com  Fri Jul  7 18:40:41 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:40:41 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>
	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AEAAA9.7000408@wikia.com>

Mark Slater wrote:
> On 7/7/06, Elizabeth J Allen <eja at samurai.com> wrote:
>> Shall we change the home URL to us.campaigns.wikia.com or do we
>> assume that the United States is the default location for
>> campaigns.wikia.com?
> 
> One shouldn't assume any nationality. I'd say make the users choose,
> instead of creating yet another America-by-default website.

Right, I would say neither.  I have been thinking about this some more,
and what I think makes the most sense... though I am not sure... is to
divide the site by languages (which is necessary as a practical matter)
into separate wikis, but to keep different nations of the same language
within the same wiki.

It is no problem to have a UK and US and Australia, etc. portal and
categories and so on, all within the English site, and this makes for a
much greater chance of productive cross-fertilization of ideas.

Similarly for Germany, Austria, Switzerland in German language.

There are many other complex variations (multilingual nations, etc.)
which need to be thought about, but I think there is little reason to
have two separate sites for US and UK for example...

--Jimbo
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From stpeter at jabber.org  Fri Jul  7 18:58:36 2006
From: stpeter at jabber.org (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 12:58:36 -0600
Subject: [Campaigns-l] US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <44AEAAA9.7000408@wikia.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AEAAA9.7000408@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <44AEAEDC.3090908@jabber.org>

Jimmy Wales wrote:

> It is no problem to have a UK and US and Australia, etc. portal and
> categories and so on, all within the English site, and this makes for a
> much greater chance of productive cross-fertilization of ideas.

Got Anglosphere? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglosphere

> Similarly for Germany, Austria, Switzerland in German language.

And Portugal/Brazil, La Francophonie, the Hispanosphere, etc. :-)

Makes sense to me.

Peter
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From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 19:01:19 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 12:01:19 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] set a five mails per day rule
In-Reply-To: <e23444c80607071120n4e3ce928xac76512f80e54f43@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060707161008.GA11505@mocek.org>
	<20060707173711.90296.qmail@web25414.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<e23444c80607071120n4e3ce928xac76512f80e54f43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607071201m36ce3cd6t6284ffd95d97c87d@mail.gmail.com>

When I marched in Seattle on February 15th, 2003, one of the chants was
"This is what Democracy looks like!"

The email traffic on the democracy mailing lists that I'm on, which number
in excess of 100 now, is the reason I got a gmail account.  It's the cost of
online activism, and it's only going to increase.  And that's a good thing,
in my opinion.  There are tools to help us deal with this volume, and I'm
willing to help anyone learn how to use those tools.

Chad Lupkes
Seattle


On 7/7/06, Ed Rodgers <ed.rodgers at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/7/06, federico mello <federicomello at yahoo.it> wrote:
> >  The first mailing list rule would be to set a five mails per day rule.
>
> I've been a part of many other mailing lists, and one had a 7 posts
> per day maximum when the list traffic had reached 80-100 emails per
> day.  This has it's pro's and con's of censoring participation as a
> con but limiting list traffic as a pro.  IMHO, The advantage of a
> mailing list over a forum is that you have to actively go to the forum
> whereas with a list you can pick and choose which email discussions
> you participate in without having to sift through the forum structure.
>
> a good compromise would be to have the list archived and allow forum
> AND mailing list responses as i have seen done elsewhere.  that way it
> becomes a matter of personal preference on whether you participate via
> email or via forum. setting up response rules could help to moderate
> length of forum posts so that only quoted text pertinent to the
> response is involved (as above and as is commonplace in forum
> discussion).
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From chris at chiasson.name  Fri Jul  7 19:38:15 2006
From: chris at chiasson.name (Chris Chiasson)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 14:38:15 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] becoming concerned - what is your license?
Message-ID: <acbec1a40607071238j20498c7xdbe9db39c59f5f0a@mail.gmail.com>

I was creating my account today, and I realized that campaigns.wikia
is in the .com domain. Then I looked for the license under which we
contribute to the wiki, and I couldn't find it. Where is the license?
Why isn't this a .org?

-- 
http://chris.chiasson.name/


From yrazmoos at aim.com  Fri Jul  7 19:39:04 2006
From: yrazmoos at aim.com (yrazmoos at aim.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 15:39:04 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Yrazmoos says....
Message-ID: <8C8701423A0E852-1F00-2784@FWM-R04.sysops.aol.com>

Wikipedia is a central repository of common shared knowledge, this is 
an index of a thousand blogs, with a thousand of different opinions on 
a thousand subjects.

No centralization = No politics

That's why broadcast media work fine... or work at least .
That's why there are good reasons to think this idea never will.



________________________________________________________________________
Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and 
industry-leading spam and email virus protection.



From jwales at wikia.com  Fri Jul  7 19:56:39 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:56:39 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] becoming concerned - what is your license?
In-Reply-To: <acbec1a40607071238j20498c7xdbe9db39c59f5f0a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <acbec1a40607071238j20498c7xdbe9db39c59f5f0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AEBC77.9050405@wikia.com>

Chris Chiasson wrote:
> I was creating my account today, and I realized that campaigns.wikia
> is in the .com domain. Then I looked for the license under which we
> contribute to the wiki, and I couldn't find it. Where is the license?
> Why isn't this a .org?

Everything on the site is GNU FDL, although some images may be uploaded
under various CC licenses.  The software is all GNU GPL.

-- 
#######################################################################
#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
#######################################################################
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From jwales at wikia.com  Fri Jul  7 19:57:36 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:57:36 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Yrazmoos says....
In-Reply-To: <8C8701423A0E852-1F00-2784@FWM-R04.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C8701423A0E852-1F00-2784@FWM-R04.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <44AEBCB0.8000001@wikia.com>

yrazmoos at aim.com wrote:
> Wikipedia is a central repository of common shared knowledge, this is an
> index of a thousand blogs, with a thousand of different opinions on a
> thousand subjects.

This is not an index of blogs. :)  I agree with you that trying to use
wiki software to do blogs is not a sensible idea.  But that is not what
we are trying to do.


-- 
#######################################################################
#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
#######################################################################
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From noel.whelan at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 19:55:58 2006
From: noel.whelan at gmail.com (Noel Whelan)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 14:55:58 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 17
In-Reply-To: <20060707184050.CD925B98576@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
References: <20060707184050.CD925B98576@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
Message-ID: <1eb3081c0607071255u10b3ce8cw7c01c3e7b9002d13@mail.gmail.com>

I think this would be ideal: it would let posting via whichever interface
one wants to use be included in each of the others, too.

- Noel

On 7/7/06, campaigns-l-request at wikia.com <campaigns-l-request at wikia.com>
wrote:
>
>
> Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 11:25:45 -0700
> From: Phil Mocek <pmocek-list-wikia at mocek.org>
> Subject: [Campaigns-l] archive this list at Gmane? [was: set a five
>         mails   per day rule]
> To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
> Message-ID: <20060707182545.GB11505 at mocek.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Fri, Jul 07, 2006 at 02:20:07PM -0400, Ed Rodgers wrote:
> > a good compromise would be to have the list archived and allow
> > forum AND mailing list responses as i have seen done elsewhere.
> > that way it becomes a matter of personal preference on whether
> > you participate via email or via forum.
>
> Gmane is a service that does something like this.  You submit a
> request with some basic information about the list and then Gmane
> subscribes itself to the list.  The list is then made available
> via NNTP (newsgroup), RSS feed, and a Web interface.
>
> <http://gmane.org/>
>
> --
> Phil Mocek
>
>
>
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From chris at chiasson.name  Fri Jul  7 19:59:23 2006
From: chris at chiasson.name (Chris Chiasson)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 14:59:23 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] becoming concerned - what is your license?
In-Reply-To: <44AEBC77.9050405@wikia.com>
References: <acbec1a40607071238j20498c7xdbe9db39c59f5f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AEBC77.9050405@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <acbec1a40607071259g5fc59b79k9615f7f616691329@mail.gmail.com>

Where is it posted on the site? Do the people contributing even know
what license under which they are releasing their work?

On 7/7/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> Chris Chiasson wrote:
> > I was creating my account today, and I realized that campaigns.wikia
> > is in the .com domain. Then I looked for the license under which we
> > contribute to the wiki, and I couldn't find it. Where is the license?
> > Why isn't this a .org?
>
> Everything on the site is GNU FDL, although some images may be uploaded
> under various CC licenses.  The software is all GNU GPL.
>
> --
> #######################################################################
> #    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
> #    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
> #######################################################################
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
>


-- 
http://chris.chiasson.name/


From chris at chiasson.name  Fri Jul  7 20:02:45 2006
From: chris at chiasson.name (Chris Chiasson)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 15:02:45 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Mr. Candidate
In-Reply-To: <44ADF43B.9010300@xmission.com>
References: <cde42430607062236y6bd9732djca260826ff7e68e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<44ADF43B.9010300@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <acbec1a40607071302i4c4c0859m2127bd9f74ee0823@mail.gmail.com>

www.followthemoney.org/


From lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 20:03:13 2006
From: lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com (Lord Voldemort)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 16:03:13 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] becoming concerned - what is your license?
In-Reply-To: <acbec1a40607071259g5fc59b79k9615f7f616691329@mail.gmail.com>
References: <acbec1a40607071238j20498c7xdbe9db39c59f5f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AEBC77.9050405@wikia.com>
	<acbec1a40607071259g5fc59b79k9615f7f616691329@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa62d5b70607071303s20ec33a1q7ac05300ebdc7623@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/06, Chris Chiasson <chris at chiasson.name> wrote:
> Where is it posted on the site? Do the people contributing even know
> what license under which they are releasing their work?

Well, it is at the bottom of every page.  And at the bottom of every
page that is being edited, so my guess is that they should be aware.
--LV


From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 20:10:53 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 13:10:53 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] becoming concerned - what is your license?
In-Reply-To: <acbec1a40607071238j20498c7xdbe9db39c59f5f0a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <acbec1a40607071238j20498c7xdbe9db39c59f5f0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607071310v6e9b6660sd31e4d067df8572e@mail.gmail.com>

Top level domains (.com, .org, .net, etc.) really don't have any real
meaning.  It was designed so "for-profits" to use .com, "non-profits" to use
.org, and networks to use .net, but there are no laws in place that create
any restrictions.  Wikia.com is a for-profit company, and they maintain and
grow through the use of paid advertising via Google.

If this really catches on, and we decide to create an non-profit
organization to handle things like Wikipedia did, then that would be
appropriate.  Otherwise, I think we're fine.

Chad


On 7/7/06, Chris Chiasson <chris at chiasson.name> wrote:
>
> I was creating my account today, and I realized that campaigns.wikia
> is in the .com domain. Then I looked for the license under which we
> contribute to the wiki, and I couldn't find it. Where is the license?
> Why isn't this a .org?
>
> --
> http://chris.chiasson.name/
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From mconnolly at cambridgeconsulting.com  Fri Jul  7 18:26:58 2006
From: mconnolly at cambridgeconsulting.com (Michael A. Connolly)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 14:26:58 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Too much emails
In-Reply-To: <1eb3081c0607070909k34b36022n9fb63a4746a828c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1eb3081c0607070909k34b36022n9fb63a4746a828c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7891efd16c27b27a0a75d1c0f52e019b@cambridgeconsulting.com>

In the last 24 hours I have received 50 emails from this list

michael


On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:09 PM, Noel Whelan wrote:

> I think this is worth considering, too.
>
> On 7/7/06, campaigns-l-request at wikia.com < 
> campaigns-l-request at wikia.com> wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 07:45:17 +0100
>>  From: "Miguel Duarte" <home at miguelduarte.net>
>> Subject: [Campaigns-l] Too much emails
>> To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
>>  Message-ID:
>>         <30580f410607062345k4560a650se2d0dc8b314db807 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Ahh
>>
>> These are simply too much emails. I should at least receive only one
>> digest a day. I think on the last 24 hours I received more than 10
>> emails.
>>
>> My first idea: Please, move this discussion to a F?rum.
>>
>> Miguel
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
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From yrazmoos at aim.com  Fri Jul  7 20:22:24 2006
From: yrazmoos at aim.com (yrazmoos at aim.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 16:22:24 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Yrazmoos says....
In-Reply-To: <44AEBCB0.8000001@wikia.com>
References: <8C8701423A0E852-1F00-2784@FWM-R04.sysops.aol.com>
	<44AEBCB0.8000001@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <8C8701A314AF695-1F00-2AC2@FWM-R04.sysops.aol.com>

Jimbo you're great.
You're the greatest Jimbo ever, possibly even greater than Jimbo 
Connors, may God bless him.
It seems you know what you're doing... and that sounds promising even 
if I don't understand it.
Wish all the best to your crazy attempt. May it stand the test of time 
and deliver us from evil politicians.




-----Original Message-----
From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
Sent: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 14:57:36 -0500
Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Yrazmoos says....

  yrazmoos at aim.com wrote:
> Wikipedia is a central repository of common shared knowledge, this is 
an
> index of a thousand blogs, with a thousand of different opinions on a
> thousand subjects.

This is not an index of blogs. :)  I agree with you that trying to use
wiki software to do blogs is not a sensible idea.  But that is not what
we are trying to do.


--
#######################################################################
#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
#######################################################################

   _______________________________________________
Campaigns-l mailing list
Campaigns-l at wikia.com
http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l


________________________________________________________________________
Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and 
industry-leading spam and email virus protection.



From jwales at wikia.com  Fri Jul  7 20:41:25 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 15:41:25 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] becoming concerned - what is your license?
In-Reply-To: <acbec1a40607071259g5fc59b79k9615f7f616691329@mail.gmail.com>
References: <acbec1a40607071238j20498c7xdbe9db39c59f5f0a@mail.gmail.com>	<44AEBC77.9050405@wikia.com>
	<acbec1a40607071259g5fc59b79k9615f7f616691329@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AEC6F5.8040508@wikia.com>

(gah, I promised early this morning that I was making my last post, but
here I go again.)

Chris Chiasson wrote:
> Where is it posted on the site? Do the people contributing even know
> what license under which they are releasing their work?

First, it is posted on every single page of the site.

Second, when you click on edit and type something, there is a clear
explanation of it directly between where you type your contribution and
where you click the button to save it.

"Please note that all contributions to Central Campaign Wikia are
considered to be released under the GNU Free Documentation License (see
Central_Campaign_Wikia:Copyrights for details). If you don't want your
writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't
submit it here.
You are also promising us that you wrote this yourself, or copied it
from a public domain or similar free resource. DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED
WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!"

This is standard practice in MediaWiki software, used everywhere on the
web, as for example at Wikipedia.

--Jimbo
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From chris at chiasson.name  Fri Jul  7 21:01:47 2006
From: chris at chiasson.name (Chris Chiasson)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 16:01:47 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] becoming concerned - what is your license?
In-Reply-To: <44AEC6F5.8040508@wikia.com>
References: <acbec1a40607071238j20498c7xdbe9db39c59f5f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AEBC77.9050405@wikia.com>
	<acbec1a40607071259g5fc59b79k9615f7f616691329@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AEC6F5.8040508@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <acbec1a40607071401v70ae020akb7338ca7560729c7@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, I didn't mean to unjustly cause a stir.

Seeing the responses further down this thread, there is apparently a
notice of the FDL.

If you are wondering why I wanted to know where it is on the website,
I -was- concerned that without such notice, campaigns.wikia.com would
not be able to meld the individual contributions together (because the
contributors retain the copyrights). In that scenario, everyone's
effort could have been wasted, and I don't want that.

Nothing to see here, move along...

On 7/7/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> (gah, I promised early this morning that I was making my last post, but
> here I go again.)
>
> Chris Chiasson wrote:
> > Where is it posted on the site? Do the people contributing even know
> > what license under which they are releasing their work?
>
> First, it is posted on every single page of the site.
>
> Second, when you click on edit and type something, there is a clear
> explanation of it directly between where you type your contribution and
> where you click the button to save it.
>
> "Please note that all contributions to Central Campaign Wikia are
> considered to be released under the GNU Free Documentation License (see
> Central_Campaign_Wikia:Copyrights for details). If you don't want your
> writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't
> submit it here.
> You are also promising us that you wrote this yourself, or copied it
> from a public domain or similar free resource. DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED
> WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!"
>
> This is standard practice in MediaWiki software, used everywhere on the
> web, as for example at Wikipedia.
>
> --Jimbo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
>


-- 
http://chris.chiasson.name/


From eloquence at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 21:07:23 2006
From: eloquence at gmail.com (Erik Moeller)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 23:07:23 +0200
Subject: [Campaigns-l] becoming concerned - what is your license?
In-Reply-To: <44AEC6F5.8040508@wikia.com>
References: <acbec1a40607071238j20498c7xdbe9db39c59f5f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AEBC77.9050405@wikia.com>
	<acbec1a40607071259g5fc59b79k9615f7f616691329@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AEC6F5.8040508@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <b80736c80607071407j3b1c441bk8dafe5b8c99d9035@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> This is standard practice in MediaWiki software, used everywhere on the
> web, as for example at Wikipedia.

To clarify: When you install MediaWiki, you get to choose a copyright
for your wiki. The default is "no license" (i.e. traditional
copyright). Wikia chose the GFDL for its wikis, the license used by
Wikipedia.

I do believe they should be commended for that. I know of no other
large wiki hosting company that makes its pages available as free
content by default.

Wikia also makes the database dumps of its wikis available in
MediaWiki's standard XML format:
http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Database_download

What this means is that it would be trivial for me to set up a new,
non-profit wiki with the same content as campaigns.wikia.com (though
without its user database).

As for the general question whether it's OK to have this on a
for-profit: I think it's a good idea for now, as Wikia has a paid
staff that helps to build communities like this one. It would be
difficult to bootstrap a non-profit with the same level of
professionalism. Given that the content is under a free license, it
can always be migrated later.

Since Jimmy is also the founder of the Wikimedia Foundation, a
non-profit that operates Wikipedia, I believe he will even be open to
lending his support to such an effort if it makes sense. But even if
he chose to oppose it, the community could go in that direction if it
wanted to. Wikia holds no special rights to the content developed on
its wikis.

Now, to the bloggers on this mailing list: Is _your_ blog under a
Creative Commons license? ;-) If not, you can choose one here:
http://creativecommons.org/license/

Regards,
Erik
(MediaWiki guy, not associated with Wikia)


From jackguy at newsguy.com  Fri Jul  7 20:41:54 2006
From: jackguy at newsguy.com (Jack Stewart)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 16:41:54 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AEC712.9040602@newsguy.com>

Chad Lupkes wrote:
> I strongly believe that the only differentiation we need is by 
> language.  I'd love to learn more about races in the UK, Canada and 
> Australia.  And we need a place for spanish speaking people to talk 
> about US elections.
My primary interest is the rules of our U.S. democratic government. 
Particularly as compared to other nations, or to changes over time. How 
would I fit into Campaign Wikia?

-----------------------------------
ONE EXAMPLE of the type of material I am interested in learning more 
about and also publicly disseminating.

The U.S. does not have any national political parties.  At least not as 
defined as an organization that can decide if a politician can run under 
it's name. That is a requirement if a political party wishes to enforce 
a party platform.

Most state laws enforce nomination by primary election. However the 
power of state parties to control who gets on the primary ballot varies.

In New York, someone named Jonathan Tasini is planning on running in the 
Democratic primary for U.S. Senator.  He hopes to be running against 
Hillary Clinton.  He mentioned, on his blog, that he would need 10,000 
signed and approved petitions to get on the primary ballot.  That made 
me start wondering if Hillary Clinton would need 10,000 petitions.   I 
had my doubts.  When I started asking questions, Richard Winger, the 
editor of Ballot Access News, replied that "/In New York  someone who 
gets at least 25% endorsement at the state convention can get on the 
primary ballot with no petitions./"

Wouldn't it be nice to know the power of the state parties in all the 
states.

Jack



---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 0627-3, 07/07/2006
Tested on: 7/7/2006 4:41:58 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.
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From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Fri Jul  7 22:04:04 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 15:04:04 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <44AEC712.9040602@newsguy.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>
	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>
	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AEC712.9040602@newsguy.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607071504g48b62665je2a484c4ad84e7fe@mail.gmail.com>

That's a good question, and a good goal.  My opinion is that this type of
information is more appropriate in the electoral reform wikia.  The most
frustrating part of all of this is that people are coming to this one single
wikia with all their ideas, probably because Jim was able to promote this
one where the others didn't do any promotion at all.  Take a look at the
Politics Portal on Wikia.com's main site and you'll find a few dozen sites,
some that get attention, some that don't.  I think using the campaigns wiki
to specifically track campaigns around the US and around the world,
including names, issue positions, links to the rest of the Internet, News
about the campaigns, etc. is great.  But getting into every other political
subject on one single wikia without taking advantage of the true potential
of the wikia.com resources would be a shame.

To that end, I'm thinking of linking to the Politics:Portal page on the main
wikia on the Campaigns main page.  Does anyone have objections to this?

Chad


On 7/7/06, Jack Stewart <jackguy at newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>  Chad Lupkes wrote:
>
>  I strongly believe that the only differentiation we need is by language.
> I'd love to learn more about races in the UK, Canada and Australia.  And we
> need a place for spanish speaking people to talk about US elections.
>
> My primary interest is the rules of our U.S. democratic government.
> Particularly as compared to other nations, or to changes over time. How
> would I fit into Campaign Wikia?
>
> -----------------------------------
> ONE EXAMPLE of the type of material I am interested in learning more about
> and also publicly disseminating.
>
> The U.S. does not have any national political parties.  At least not as
> defined as an organization that can decide if a politician can run under
> it's name. That is a requirement if a political party wishes to enforce a
> party platform.
>
> Most state laws enforce nomination by primary election. However the power
> of state parties to control who gets on the primary ballot varies.
>
> In New York, someone named Jonathan Tasini is planning on running in the
> Democratic primary for U.S. Senator.  He hopes to be running against
> Hillary Clinton.  He mentioned, on his blog, that he would need 10,000
> signed and approved petitions to get on the primary ballot.  That made me
> start wondering if Hillary Clinton would need 10,000 petitions.   I had my
> doubts.  When I started asking questions, Richard Winger, the editor of Ballot
> Access News, replied that "*In New York  someone who gets at least 25%
> endorsement at the state convention can get on the primary ballot with no
> petitions.*"
>
> Wouldn't it be nice to know the power of the state parties in all the
> states.
>
> Jack
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com/>: Outbound message clean.
>
> Virus Database (VPS): 0627-3, 07/07/2006
> Tested on: 7/7/2006 4:41:59 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
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From lise at lisequinn.net  Fri Jul  7 22:06:34 2006
From: lise at lisequinn.net (Lise L. Quinn)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 15:06:34 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Too much emails
In-Reply-To: <7891efd16c27b27a0a75d1c0f52e019b@cambridgeconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <044901c6a211$9d3d45a0$6800a8c0@atalanta>

Go to digest mode
 
Lis? 
("Don't worry about the world coming to an end today, It's already tomorrow in Australia"  ~ Charles Schultz)
 

  _____  

From: campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com [mailto:campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com] On Behalf Of Michael A. Connolly
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:27 AM
To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Too much emails


In the last 24 hours I have received 50 emails from this list

michael


On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:09 PM, Noel Whelan wrote:



I think this is worth considering, too.

On 7/7/06, campaigns-l-request at wikia.com < campaigns-l-request at wikia.com> wrote:


Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 07:45:17 +0100
From: "Miguel Duarte" <home at miguelduarte.net>
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Too much emails
To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
Message-ID:
<30580f410607062345k4560a650se2d0dc8b314db807 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Ahh

These are simply too much emails. I should at least receive only one
digest a day. I think on the last 24 hours I received more than 10
emails.

My first idea: Please, move this discussion to a F?rum.

Miguel




_______________________________________________
Campaigns-l mailing list
Campaigns-l at wikia.com
http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l


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From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 00:57:52 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 17:57:52 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <44AE5241.1060703@wikia.com>
References: <20060707054411.53E07B98571@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
	<c98f820f0607062310h2fbb9736u7696083d44fc0dae@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AE5241.1060703@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607071757n4d9ae2eas2c6e94fea25ec09d@mail.gmail.com>

Jim, I think there's a significant difference between neutrality and
fairness.  Neutrality means that nothing overtly one sided would be welcome,
and that's not a true political discussion.  I think we need to treat each
other fairly, meaning that all points are welcome (excluding direct
insults), and are encouraged to be matched by other points of view.  I don't
think we will or should try for neutrality, but I do think we should try and
push for fairness.

Chad


On 7/7/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
> Maurice McGinley (Ovis) wrote:
> >> On 7/6/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> >> > 2.  Issues - neutral (VERY IMPORTANT!!!) presentations of various
> >> > campaign issues, the point here is to give voters a place to come for
> >> > basic information about active issues.
> >
> > Other posts have suggested:
> > 1. neutrality is difficulty and unlikely, and
> > 2. a registration requirement may be inevitable.
> >
> > I agree.
>
> I have a lot of experience with wikis, and people who are new to wikis
> always think that neutrality is difficult and unlikely (but usually, it
> is not as hard as people think), and people always think that a
> registration requirement is inevitable (but usually, it is not).
>
> > Further, I would like to see this used as a forum for policy
> > development, where known agents with public agendas and agreed goals
> > discuss and develop policy in the sunlight. ...An open-source policy
> > incubator. The challenge will be to allow as many as possible to
> > participate while maintaining the quality of debate.
>
> This is what wikis are really good at.
>
> --Jimbo
>
> --
> #######################################################################
> #    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
> #    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
> #######################################################################
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
>
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From jwales at wikia.com  Sat Jul  8 02:05:39 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:05:39 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607071504g48b62665je2a484c4ad84e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>	<801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>	<44AEC712.9040602@newsguy.com>
	<801553ab0607071504g48b62665je2a484c4ad84e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AF12F3.9060401@wikia.com>

Chad Lupkes wrote:
> That's a good question, and a good goal.  My opinion is that this type
> of information is more appropriate in the electoral reform wikia.  The
> most frustrating part of all of this is that people are coming to this
> one single wikia with all their ideas, probably because Jim was able to
> promote this one where the others didn't do any promotion at all.

I think it is absolutely right to start adding new wikis to accomodate
and enrich and empower subcommunities.

>But getting into every other political subject on one single wikia
>without taking advantage of the true potential of the wikia.com
>resources would be a shame.

Totally.  We can launch new communities from the central campaign wikia
as needed and desired.  Probably we should have a process similar to
that at wikipedia for "new langauges" or "new projects", i.e. if we have
a subgroup within our broad politically-interested groups, and they have
 say 20 people signed up as willing to work on a sufficiently separate
topic, we launch a new wikia to make it easier for that subgroup to work
off to the side together, and they of course would want to bring some of
the work back into the nonpartisan global space, etc.

--Jimbo
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From lucychili at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 02:25:27 2006
From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 11:55:27 +0930
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607071757n4d9ae2eas2c6e94fea25ec09d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060707054411.53E07B98571@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
	<c98f820f0607062310h2fbb9736u7696083d44fc0dae@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AE5241.1060703@wikia.com>
	<801553ab0607071757n4d9ae2eas2c6e94fea25ec09d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c9d7bc330607071925n7e93a124nf4531b0372728871@mail.gmail.com>

Maurice McGinley (Ovis) wrote:
> > > Further, I would like to see this used as a forum for policy
> > > development, where known agents with public agendas and agreed goals
> > > discuss and develop policy in the sunlight. ...An open-source policy
> > > incubator. The challenge will be to allow as many as possible to
> > > participate while maintaining the quality of debate.

Hello

I am new to the list so please excuse me if im OT.
I am interested in seeing a new policy developed to present at the
international treaty tables in opposition to the DMCA. I realise this
will be a complex Act and that it is far easier to develop a DMCA with
the narrow interests of a few publishers to support, but I feel that a
healthy copyright/copy/left/information rights Act is something which
bloggers and wiki folk have at least some common ground on. We know
the value of the commons.
There may be some groups around the world who have been working on
alternative paths. It would be great to be able to use this forum to
bring all those threads together in an internationally grounded
alternative to the DMCA.

Janet


From lise at lisequinn.net  Sat Jul  8 02:48:57 2006
From: lise at lisequinn.net (Lise L. Quinn)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 19:48:57 -0700
Subject: SPAM-LOW:  Re: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1,
	Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <c9d7bc330607071925n7e93a124nf4531b0372728871@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c6a239$0f91d950$6800a8c0@atalanta>

What is DMCA? What kind of policy? 


Lis? 
("Don't worry about the world coming to an end today, It's already tomorrow
in Australia"  ~ Charles Schultz)

-----Original Message-----
From: campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com [mailto:campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com]
On Behalf Of Janet Hawtin
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 7:25 PM
To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 12

Maurice McGinley (Ovis) wrote:
> > > Further, I would like to see this used as a forum for policy 
> > > development, where known agents with public agendas and agreed 
> > > goals discuss and develop policy in the sunlight. ...An 
> > > open-source policy incubator. The challenge will be to allow as 
> > > many as possible to participate while maintaining the quality of
debate.

Hello

I am new to the list so please excuse me if im OT.
I am interested in seeing a new policy developed to present at the
international treaty tables in opposition to the DMCA. I realise this will
be a complex Act and that it is far easier to develop a DMCA with the narrow
interests of a few publishers to support, but I feel that a healthy
copyright/copy/left/information rights Act is something which bloggers and
wiki folk have at least some common ground on. We know the value of the
commons.
There may be some groups around the world who have been working on
alternative paths. It would be great to be able to use this forum to bring
all those threads together in an internationally grounded alternative to the
DMCA.

Janet
_______________________________________________
Campaigns-l mailing list
Campaigns-l at wikia.com
http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l





From lucychili at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 03:14:43 2006
From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 12:44:43 +0930
Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1,
	Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <004c01c6a239$0f91d950$6800a8c0@atalanta>
References: <c9d7bc330607071925n7e93a124nf4531b0372728871@mail.gmail.com>
	<004c01c6a239$0f91d950$6800a8c0@atalanta>
Message-ID: <c9d7bc330607072014i6db6f10eyd3302b60bdc62ee3@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/8/06, Lise L. Quinn <lise at lisequinn.net> wrote:
> What is DMCA? What kind of policy?

DMCA is the digital millenium copyright act.
It was initiated in the States by publishing and media interests.
It was pushed through US government, and, through international trade
processes, has been made a compulsory prerequisite of trade with the
United States.
In Europe I believe it is called EUCD European Union Copyright Directive.

Many people in nations around the world are unhappy because it
overturns many of
the fair use/fair dealing rights of information users.
The change in functionality and rights of a book owner compared to the
rights of an ebook purchaser are pretty dramatic.

The act is promoted as being anti piracy but is drafted specifically
to provide right of way for large commercial interests over new
entrants to a market or to reasearchers. Basically it is targeted at
legitimate folk who have something to offer/lose and who are worth
taking to court in order to further/defend ones commercial interests.

In nations where it has been adopted as part of a treatly the local
people are restricted from opposing the act and are instead only asked
to submit specified
exemptions on behalf of specified interest groups. This derails the
main debate which should be occuring around the issue of right of way
a publisher's license over the future uses of a product after they
have purchased it, over the right for competitors to engineer
something which interoperates with a product, over the right of the
consumer to buy something else later on from a different publisher
which interacts with a competing product.

For those who do books the one Information Feudalism, Drahos,
Braithwaite is a good description of how we got here.

Ive got a blog for laypeople at http://lucychili.blogspot.com
If you go to the oldest DMCA posts and work forward you'll get the gist
along the same path as I did.

The EFF have examples of cases
http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/

I am a member of an open source community.
I use Linux. Because the DMCA enables publishers to ban interoperating
technologies by making it illegal to investigate the interfaces of a
copyrighted technology without buying into an agreement with the
competition it poses a concern to open source developers and community
members. It should be a concern for a much broader section of the
population but the implications are subtle and so some proprietory
developers do not imagine that they themselves will be disadvantaged
by lock out from a larger competitor.

I am happy to discuss and explain further off list if
me talking about this here is too granular for the stage of this mailing list.

Janet


From nhprman at comcast.net  Sat Jul  8 04:27:50 2006
From: nhprman at comcast.net (Stephen Abbott)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 00:27:50 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Going down the wrong path?
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>	<801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>	<44AEC712.9040602@newsguy.com><801553ab0607071504g48b62665je2a484c4ad84e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AF12F3.9060401@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <042d01c6a246$dfe56100$72ce3e18@Stephen>

What I find a *tad* disturbing is someone just created a list of "Corrupt
Politicians." (http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Corrupt_politicians).

It's not a coincidence that they are all from one party, considering the
political tenor of Washington these days. However, I thought we were aiming
for something different here -- a bit less ... predictable.

Unless we all want to see the next 500,000 words written on this Wikia be
disproportionately on that article's Talk page - debating who should and
should not be included on the list and why "your party is more corrupt than
mine", etc. - I humbly urge that someone delete it. Wikipedia already has
numerous "corruption" political pages (another issue, for another time, but
I'd make the same argument against those politically motivated pages.)

I also have to say I'm noticing other nasty trends, such as articles with
statements seemingly deliberately designed to provoke such as this in the
Terrorism article: "Terrorism is by no means a leading cause of death in the
U.S., however it recieves a disproportionate level of attention and
funding." That's an unadulterated biased opinion, with no counterbalance,
and it's not presented with other views for proper debate/discussion.
Frankly, I don't see how this particular article would help me decide which
party to support. It just gives me yet another CHAT BOARD on which to vent
my opinions. Why is that needed on the Internet? Why not a decent
presentation of views (it exists in other articles here) that give me a real
choice?

Since this is my first participation on the List, I want to say this is an
awesome concept, and I hope it isn't ruined in its execution. I agree that
FAIRNESS should be the goal, if not outright neutrality, though I must say I
do understand the need for netural descriptions in many cases.

Thanks, Jimbo, for starting this project!

- Stephen A.
User:Nhprman




From lucychili at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 07:31:11 2006
From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 17:01:11 +0930
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Going down the wrong path?
In-Reply-To: <042d01c6a246$dfe56100$72ce3e18@Stephen>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>
	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>
	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AEC712.9040602@newsguy.com>
	<801553ab0607071504g48b62665je2a484c4ad84e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AF12F3.9060401@wikia.com> <042d01c6a246$dfe56100$72ce3e18@Stephen>
Message-ID: <c9d7bc330607080031m456aac6ej5a949f952d63036@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/8/06, Stephen Abbott <nhprman at comcast.net> wrote:
> What I find a *tad* disturbing is someone just created a list of "Corrupt
> Politicians." (http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Corrupt_politicians).
>
> It's not a coincidence that they are all from one party, considering the
> political tenor of Washington these days. However, I thought we were aiming
> for something different here -- a bit less ... predictable.

I have to say that I was a bit disappointed that the campaigns page was
structured around existing parties and so therefore divided visitors into
political parties by the information structure.

I am hoping that if we structure information around issues the theme
will bring folk together to discuss approaches to an issue in one
place and come to some hopefully constructive conclusions around any
tension points.

imho Because we are operating on a wiki and because our communities
can acheive things with different methods of organising, I am hoping
that these pages can provide an alternative way of looking at these
issues which is about the issue and not about the standard positions
of existing parties and decision making systems. Surely if we cannot
offer anything different from those systems we are wasting our time.

I agree with Stephen that this is a great idea but we will have to
work to make it something effective and to avoid old ruts. And once we
get everything sweet and effective here. The second challenge will be
making it corporeal without falling into those same ruts outside where
the information structure is separate and has organisations, money,
processes and media to match.

janet/lucychili


From lucychili at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 13:55:41 2006
From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 23:25:41 +0930
Subject: [Campaigns-l] IRC meeting
Message-ID: <c9d7bc330607080655w49fb964bo5816b053af2c3396@mail.gmail.com>

would it be possible to have an irc meeting to get folks
together and chatting about these core structural ideas?
I am in Au but reasonably flex re time.
cheers
Janet


From artie at artiefacts.com  Sat Jul  8 14:20:12 2006
From: artie at artiefacts.com (Artie)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:20:12 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Going down the wrong path?
In-Reply-To: <042d01c6a246$dfe56100$72ce3e18@Stephen>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>	<801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>	<44AEC712.9040602@newsguy.com><801553ab0607071504g48b62665je2a484c4ad84e7fe@mail.gmail.com>	<44AF12F3.9060401@wikia.com>
	<042d01c6a246$dfe56100$72ce3e18@Stephen>
Message-ID: <44AFBF1C.8030301@artiefacts.com>

Stephen Abbott wrote:

>
>Since this is my first participation on the List, I want to say this is an
>awesome concept, and I hope it isn't ruined in its execution. I agree that
>FAIRNESS should be the goal, if not outright neutrality, though I must say I
>do understand the need for netural descriptions in many cases.
>
>Thanks, Jimbo, for starting this project!
>  
>
Let me echo Stephen's thanks and his concerns. This concept is an 
ambitious one, but without a firm, diligent editorial hand, I can't see 
how to avoid the inevitable partisan "editing wars."

The topics of neutrality and civility in political discourse are 
starting to make it into the MSM. Just the other night, George 
Stephanopolis had a show on ABC? about the divisive nature of American 
politics. There's the ongoing blogosphere handwringing about Ann 
Coulter, "Faux" News, Limbaugh, Weekly Standard, et al. Why should we 
expect the Mediawiki format to foster a more neutral, balanced or civil 
political discussion?

I don't want to appear as a critic of Wikipedia, because I genuinely 
like Wikipedia and the open, egalitarian ideals it promotes. Wikipedia 
admirable qualities are the very things that make it the most vulnerable 
to exploitation by partisan boors. The Seigenthaler episode is the 
perfect example. Right now, I see no way to avoid this kind of 
exploitation without some sort of constant editorial presense, and the 
editor(s) would face inevitable charges of partisan behavior.

Is there any way to avoid this?

Artie

>- Stephen A.
>User:Nhprman
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Campaigns-l mailing list
>Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
>
>  
>




From jwales at wikia.com  Sat Jul  8 14:58:40 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:58:40 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Going down the wrong path?
In-Reply-To: <042d01c6a246$dfe56100$72ce3e18@Stephen>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>	<801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>	<44AEC712.9040602@newsguy.com><801553ab0607071504g48b62665je2a484c4ad84e7fe@mail.gmail.com>	<44AF12F3.9060401@wikia.com>
	<042d01c6a246$dfe56100$72ce3e18@Stephen>
Message-ID: <44AFC820.8020408@wikia.com>

Stephen Abbott wrote:
> What I find a *tad* disturbing is someone just created a list of "Corrupt
> Politicians." (http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Corrupt_politicians).
> 
> It's not a coincidence that they are all from one party, considering the
> political tenor of Washington these days. However, I thought we were aiming
> for something different here -- a bit less ... predictable.

Per the discussion on the talk page, I have deleted it.

My style, as most of you probably know, is to have a very light touch.
I do not want to be heavy handed in any way about what the exact
direction of various parts of the site should be.  But I would like to
provide some light guidance early on, to set a joyful and productive
tone where we (ironically enough) leave politics at the door. :)

I have friends on all sides of the political spectrum, and there is a
really unfortunate tendency to assume that "the other side" is filled
with morons, or benefits from stupidity, etc.  I don't think that is
true, and this whole attitude is part of what I want us to try to cure. :)

--Jimbo


-- 
#######################################################################
#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
#######################################################################
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From beesley at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 15:44:36 2006
From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 01:44:36 +1000
Subject: [Campaigns-l] IRC meeting
In-Reply-To: <c9d7bc330607080655w49fb964bo5816b053af2c3396@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c9d7bc330607080655w49fb964bo5816b053af2c3396@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8b722b800607080844x2ff104cdrcae3352f7c43843e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/8/06, Janet Hawtin <lucychili at gmail.com> wrote:
> would it be possible to have an irc meeting to get folks
> together and chatting about these core structural ideas?
> I am in Au but reasonably flex re time.

Good idea. I suggest planning it at
http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Project:IRC meetings rather than on
the mailing list.

I've registered a channel on freenode for this, and made it available
via the web at http://irc.wikia.com/campaigns/ for those without IRC
clients. There's some help on using IRC at
http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia_IRC_channel

Angela.


From liteschool at aol.com  Sat Jul  8 16:13:05 2006
From: liteschool at aol.com (liteschool at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 12:13:05 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Going down the wrong path?
In-Reply-To: <44AFC820.8020408@wikia.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>	<801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>	<44AEC712.9040602@newsguy.com><801553ab0607071504g48b62665je2a484c4ad84e7fe@mail.gmail.com>	<44AF12F3.9060401@wikia.com>	<042d01c6a246$dfe56100$72ce3e18@Stephen>
	<44AFC820.8020408@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <8C870C087ADA908-BF0-974@mblk-d37.sysops.aol.com>

What makes wikipedia and other wiki things unique is that the individuals really try to stick to the subject and develope the subject. A politician should not be the subject other than the issues he/she is involved in.
 
A sort out on what issue belongs to whom and a  sort out on each issue would be very valuable to a reader.
 
Attacking personalities rather than issues makes this whole effort not worth doing.
 
A list of issues and who supports what. Then debate the issues would be a good operational policy. The more the even hand of a referee on keeping mud slinging out of this and personal lives out of this the more interested I am.
 
I would like to see some statesmanship/stateswomanship brought back into government. That means people debating over issues not personalities.
 
Randy 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
To: Stephen Abbott <nhprman at comcast.net>; campaigns-l at wikia.com
Sent: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 09:58:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Going down the wrong path?


Stephen Abbott wrote:
> What I find a *tad* disturbing is someone just created a list of "Corrupt
> Politicians." (http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Corrupt_politicians).
> 
> It's not a coincidence that they are all from one party, considering the
> political tenor of Washington these days. However, I thought we were aiming
> for something different here -- a bit less ... predictable.

Per the discussion on the talk page, I have deleted it.

My style, as most of you probably know, is to have a very light touch.
I do not want to be heavy handed in any way about what the exact
direction of various parts of the site should be.  But I would like to
provide some light guidance early on, to set a joyful and productive
tone where we (ironically enough) leave politics at the door. :)

I have friends on all sides of the political spectrum, and there is a
really unfortunate tendency to assume that "the other side" is filled
with morons, or benefits from stupidity, etc.  I don't think that is
true, and this whole attitude is part of what I want us to try to cure. :)

--Jimbo


-- 
#######################################################################
#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
#######################################################################

_______________________________________________
Campaigns-l mailing list
Campaigns-l at wikia.com
http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
________________________________________________________________________
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From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 16:16:14 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 09:16:14 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: US-only or international?
In-Reply-To: <44AF12F3.9060401@wikia.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>
	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>
	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AEC712.9040602@newsguy.com>
	<801553ab0607071504g48b62665je2a484c4ad84e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AF12F3.9060401@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607080916l5db59b64t3179a37c2866c5c1@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Jim.

We should also be willing to point people to the wikias that have already
been set up, and are listed on the Politics Portal on the main Wika.
There's quite a list already.

Chad


On 7/7/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
> Chad Lupkes wrote:
> > That's a good question, and a good goal.  My opinion is that this type
> > of information is more appropriate in the electoral reform wikia.  The
> > most frustrating part of all of this is that people are coming to this
> > one single wikia with all their ideas, probably because Jim was able to
> > promote this one where the others didn't do any promotion at all.
>
> I think it is absolutely right to start adding new wikis to accomodate
> and enrich and empower subcommunities.
>
> >But getting into every other political subject on one single wikia
> >without taking advantage of the true potential of the wikia.com
> >resources would be a shame.
>
> Totally.  We can launch new communities from the central campaign wikia
> as needed and desired.  Probably we should have a process similar to
> that at wikipedia for "new langauges" or "new projects", i.e. if we have
> a subgroup within our broad politically-interested groups, and they have
> say 20 people signed up as willing to work on a sufficiently separate
> topic, we launch a new wikia to make it easier for that subgroup to work
> off to the side together, and they of course would want to bring some of
> the work back into the nonpartisan global space, etc.
>
> --Jimbo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
>
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From liteschool at aol.com  Sat Jul  8 17:38:57 2006
From: liteschool at aol.com (liteschool at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 13:38:57 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Statemanship
Message-ID: <8C870CC8627F256-5F0-640F@mblk-d34.sysops.aol.com>

  
What makes wikipedia and other wiki things unique is that the individuals really try to stick to the subject and develope the subject. A politician should not be the subject other than the issues he/she is involved in.
 
A sort out on what issue belongs to whom and a  sort out on each issue would be very valuable to a reader.
 
Attacking personalities rather than issues makes this whole effort not worth doing.
 
A list of issues and who supports what. Then debate the issues would be a good operational policy. The more the even hand of a referee on keeping mud slinging out of this and personal lives out of this the more interested I am.
 
I would like to see some statesmanship/stateswomanship brought back into government. That means people debating over issues not personalities.
 
Randy 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
To: Stephen Abbott <nhprman at comcast.net>; campaigns-l at wikia.com
Sent: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 09:58:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Going down the wrong path?


Stephen Abbott wrote:
> What I find a *tad* disturbing is someone just created a list of "Corrupt
> Politicians." (http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Corrupt_politicians).
> 
> It's not a coincidence that they are all from one party, considering the
> political tenor of Washington these days. However, I thought we were aiming
> for something different here -- a bit less ... predictable.

Per the discussion on the talk page, I have deleted it.

My style, as most of you probably know, is to have a very light touch.
I do not want to be heavy handed in any way about what the exact
direction of various parts of the site should be.  But I would like to
provide some light guidance early on, to set a joyful and productive
tone where we (ironically enough) leave politics at the door. :)

I have friends on all sides of the political spectrum, and there is a
really unfortunate tendency to assume that "the other side" is filled
with morons, or benefits from stupidity, etc.  I don't think that is
true, and this whole attitude is part of what I want us to try to cure. :)

--Jimbo


-- 
#######################################################################
#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
#######################################################################

_______________________________________________
Campaigns-l mailing list
Campaigns-l at wikia.com
http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l



Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

_______________________________________________
Campaigns-l mailing list
Campaigns-l at wikia.com
http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
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From nels96 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 21:47:06 2006
From: nels96 at gmail.com (Nelson Walker)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 14:47:06 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Congressional Term Limits
Message-ID: <a6ad714c0607081447rc4f674bxbcd9008b1b5e5d0@mail.gmail.com>

It is a mystery to me that, in all the new 'good government' websites (like
wikia) that I come across, I never find any that stress the fact that, in
order to effect REAL reform, it is necessary to have a legislature made up
of 'citizen' legislators, rather than the current crop of careerist
professional politicians. ( tenurecorrupts.com/#americasfirst )

And to eliminate professional politicians, it is necessary to change
politics from being a livelihood or career, to merely a civic duty, where
one will try to change government for the better during a short stay, then
return to private practice. That's the way it was for the first 150 years of
our history, before the enticements of politics became too good to give up.
( tenurecorrupts.com/#followthemoney )

Politics as a livelihood, or a career, is a fundamental conflict of
interest. When you are supposed to be a representative of the people,
putting their interest, or the country's interest before your own, then you
cannot honestly be in a position to be concerned about your job (or your
reelection). ( tenurecorrupts.com/#reelections )

i come to wikia in an attempt to correct this void in our ongoing dialog. I
strongly believe that to improve our government, we must change the
character of our Congress, and the most direct way to do that is to enact
Congressional Term Limits.

Toward this end, I have for the past 2 years been building
tenurecorrupts.com, a website dedicated to educating the voting public on
the need for such limits. The site contains arguments (pro and con),
amendment wording options, links to other sites, suggested actions you can
take to help, etc. The site blog list has accumulated over two dozen
articles on this one subject. ( Boring ?)

Recently, it has begun offering free term limits bumperstickers to all
comers.

I would very much like to have the wikia crowd join me in discussions to
exercise this idea, and to help spread the word !

-- 
Regards,
Nelson Lee Walker, Saratoga, CA
http://tenurecorrupts.com
nels96 at gmail.com   Ph:408-867-2401

No politician should be allowed unlimited reelections... even if he has the
votes!
Remember..TENURE CORRUPTS!
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From mboverload at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 21:49:47 2006
From: mboverload at gmail.com (mboverload)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 14:49:47 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Congressional Term Limits
In-Reply-To: <a6ad714c0607081447rc4f674bxbcd9008b1b5e5d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6ad714c0607081447rc4f674bxbcd9008b1b5e5d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482df7800607081449kdfa5e6h7c18fb5393e8d59d@mail.gmail.com>

This is a very important and interesting discussion.  I'm not sure yet what
this wiki is for, but it sounds like your ideas will fit right in.

On 7/8/06, Nelson Walker <nels96 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It is a mystery to me that, in all the new 'good government' websites
> (like wikia) that I come across, I never find any that stress the fact that,
> in order to effect REAL reform, it is necessary to have a legislature made
> up of 'citizen' legislators, rather than the current crop of careerist
> professional politicians. ( tenurecorrupts.com/#americasfirst )
>
> And to eliminate professional politicians, it is necessary to change
> politics from being a livelihood or career, to merely a civic duty, where
> one will try to change government for the better during a short stay, then
> return to private practice. That's the way it was for the first 150 years of
> our history, before the enticements of politics became too good to give up.
> ( tenurecorrupts.com/#followthemoney )
>
> Politics as a livelihood, or a career, is a fundamental conflict of
> interest. When you are supposed to be a representative of the people,
> putting their interest, or the country's interest before your own, then you
> cannot honestly be in a position to be concerned about your job (or your
> reelection). ( tenurecorrupts.com/#reelections )
>
> i come to wikia in an attempt to correct this void in our ongoing dialog.
> I strongly believe that to improve our government, we must change the
> character of our Congress, and the most direct way to do that is to enact
> Congressional Term Limits.
>
> Toward this end, I have for the past 2 years been building
> tenurecorrupts.com, a website dedicated to educating the voting public on
> the need for such limits. The site contains arguments (pro and con),
> amendment wording options, links to other sites, suggested actions you can
> take to help, etc. The site blog list has accumulated over two dozen
> articles on this one subject. ( Boring ?)
>
> Recently, it has begun offering free term limits bumperstickers to all
> comers.
>
> I would very much like to have the wikia crowd join me in discussions to
> exercise this idea, and to help spread the word !
>
> --
> Regards,
> Nelson Lee Walker, Saratoga, CA
> http://tenurecorrupts.com
> nels96 at gmail.com   Ph:408-867-2401
>
> No politician should be allowed unlimited reelections... even if he has
> the votes!
> Remember..TENURE CORRUPTS!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>
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From mboverload at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 22:02:13 2006
From: mboverload at gmail.com (mboverload)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 15:02:13 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] We need a short, sweet summary of what we're doing.
Message-ID: <482df7800607081502j55de6des59c93a3ce072885c@mail.gmail.com>

I think we need a single or couple sentence summary of what we are doing
exactly.  Any suggestions?

mboverload
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From lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 22:16:06 2006
From: lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com (Lord Voldemort)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 18:16:06 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] We need a short, sweet summary of what we're doing.
In-Reply-To: <482df7800607081502j55de6des59c93a3ce072885c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <482df7800607081502j55de6des59c93a3ce072885c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa62d5b70607081516y750fe9f0r51ad5113e75fdb00@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/8/06, mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think we need a single or couple sentence summary of what we are doing
> exactly.  Any suggestions?

Problem is, I'm not sure anyone knows.  I thought we were going to try
and develop a new style of participatory politics, and move away from
the sound-bite/catch-phrase/insult-driven style of politics we
currently see.  That's why I had suggested that we need to start with
some sort of "Why politics are faulty" and "Why wiki your campaign"
pages.  But a lot of others seem more interested in developing a
listing of issues.  I don't really know.  --LV


From malcolm6 at otenet.gr  Sat Jul  8 22:18:01 2006
From: malcolm6 at otenet.gr (Malcolm)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 01:18:01 +0300
Subject: [Campaigns-l] A few thoughts...
In-Reply-To: <482df7800607081449kdfa5e6h7c18fb5393e8d59d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007c01c6a2dc$639ce7d0$0302a8c0@v6tn2wna10cpek3>

Hi all!
I've been following the discussion with interest since I joined a couple
of days ago. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but some of the ideas I've
heard expressed on this mailing list seem not to have taken the mission
statement into account. It strikes me that there are two things in the
mission statement that should not be forgotten. 
1)      The idea of 'building a knowledgebase'
2)      The idea that this is 'a new Wikia website aimed at being a
central meeting ground for people on all sides of the political spectrum
who think that it is time for politics to become more participatory, and
more intelligent'.
 
The idea that the wiki should fundamentally take particular political
stances, such as backing the idea of eliminating professional
politicians, is - to me - the wrong way to go. 
 
However this wiki is structured, it should be a resource for anyone
interested in politics, whatever they think about career politicians or
any other issue. I see it (I think!) as providing key historical and
analytical information on an issue by issue basis (this may need
geographical distinction too), with information on and links to
organisations working in that area, and other relevant blogs, political
websites, discussion forums, etc. 
 
I personally don't think it should try to replace (ie kill) all the
existing discussion forums out there, or sites like the one I run. (FYI,
I am the editor of Manifesto UK (www.manifesto-uk.org
<http://www.manifesto-uk.org/> , a new website where we're creating an
ongoing UK non-partisan political manifesto). If it did that, it would
defeat the object, as it would be closing down discussion outlets rather
than opening them up.
 
So - to conclude - I think this should be a central campaigning
database, not a campaign in itself for things like getting rid of career
politicians, saving the planet from global warming or
supporting/opposing particular political positions. 
 
Keep the discussion going, though!
 
All the best,
Malcolm Mann
 
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From mboverload at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 22:39:40 2006
From: mboverload at gmail.com (mboverload)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 15:39:40 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] We need a short, sweet summary of what we're doing.
In-Reply-To: <aa62d5b70607081516y750fe9f0r51ad5113e75fdb00@mail.gmail.com>
References: <482df7800607081502j55de6des59c93a3ce072885c@mail.gmail.com>
	<aa62d5b70607081516y750fe9f0r51ad5113e75fdb00@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482df7800607081539v5b21787dy181099568d24d60f@mail.gmail.com>

lol, so it's not just me that doesn't know what we're doing?

Man, Wikipedia must have been so much easier.

"Hey man, look, it's a wiki that's an encyclopedia"
"Cool, I'll write the article on evolution"
"OMG YOU MEAN EVOLIETION"

And Wikipedia was created =D

On 7/8/06, Lord Voldemort <lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/8/06, mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think we need a single or couple sentence summary of what we are doing
> > exactly.  Any suggestions?
>
> Problem is, I'm not sure anyone knows.  I thought we were going to try
> and develop a new style of participatory politics, and move away from
> the sound-bite/catch-phrase/insult-driven style of politics we
> currently see.  That's why I had suggested that we need to start with
> some sort of "Why politics are faulty" and "Why wiki your campaign"
> pages.  But a lot of others seem more interested in developing a
> listing of issues.  I don't really know.  --LV
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From nhprman at comcast.net  Sat Jul  8 22:53:55 2006
From: nhprman at comcast.net (Stephen Abbott)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 18:53:55 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Going down the wrong path?
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>	<8b722b800607062019t5d2edb98p522b8efba064a9dd@mail.gmail.com>	<fda8f3c50607070237y4e3c8039r8e85694b3397e3e7@mail.gmail.com>	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>	<801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>	<44AEC712.9040602@newsguy.com><801553ab0607071504g48b62665je2a484c4ad84e7fe@mail.gmail.com>	<44AF12F3.9060401@wikia.com>
	<042d01c6a246$dfe56100$72ce3e18@Stephen>
	<44AFC820.8020408@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <014001c6a2e1$649e8710$72ce3e18@Stephen>

Jimbo:
Thanks for this. And I agree with your comments on the Talk page that a
proper deletion process should be devised.

I do appreciate that it's a *very* thin tightrope you walk to balance the
ideals of a full-participation wiki and the need for rules. It certainly is
a delicate balance. If you have too many rules, you stifle free expression.
If you have too FEW rules, you end up with a free-for-all, and the goals of
the project are compromised.

I'll be kind of bold in saying I think it might have been better to have had
some (if not ALL) pre-set categories and article titles ready to go at
launch, since I can envision a huge "process fight" over what is and isn't
legitimate, and I find these kinds of fights very distracting, potentially
destructive and demoralizing. A set template for how articles and comment
pages are set up would also have been nice. Currently, articles run the
gamut from one-person, one-sided rants to full-blown, Wikipedia
article-length articles with pros and cons - though sometimes, heavily
biased in one direction.

While my first point (pre-creating articles) can't be done because it's in
the past, the second - templates (or at least some guidelines) for articles,
is still possible.

Now some philosophy. I'm not a huge fan of letting "soulless forces
operate" - to borrow a phrase. It invariably leads to huge amounts of
confusion, angst and anger. On the Internet, people will do what they can
get away with, be it vandalism, personal attacks, intentional bias or simply
causing havoc for it's own sake. To ignore these emotions is to pretend
human nature is not what it is. Democracy works, but always within the
parameters of law and regulation (created by the people themselves, of
course.) Mobs never govern, they just destroy. With some realistic
guidelines, however, all can come to the wiki and find an oasis of civility
and participation that can then be translated into their own political
lives.

Without some kind of guidelines governing conduct and policy (for starters,
I'd suggest: no personal attacks, no deletion of others' personal comments,
no elimination of opposition views in articles, balance in articles is
required, no vandalism is tolerated) we risk not seeing an experiment in
participatory democracy that is any different from what we have in the Real
World.

Stephen A.
(Nhprman)

p.s. And please, God almighty in Heaven, let's not have Userboxes here!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at wikia.com>
To:  <campaigns-l at wikia.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Going down the wrong path?


> Stephen Abbott wrote:
> > What I find a *tad* disturbing is someone just created a list of
"Corrupt
> > Politicians." (http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Corrupt_politicians).
> >
> > It's not a coincidence that they are all from one party, considering the
> > political tenor of Washington these days. However, I thought we were
aiming
> > for something different here -- a bit less ... predictable.
>
> Per the discussion on the talk page, I have deleted it.
>
> My style, as most of you probably know, is to have a very light touch.
> I do not want to be heavy handed in any way about what the exact
> direction of various parts of the site should be.  But I would like to
> provide some light guidance early on, to set a joyful and productive
> tone where we (ironically enough) leave politics at the door. :)
>
> I have friends on all sides of the political spectrum, and there is a
> really unfortunate tendency to assume that "the other side" is filled
> with morons, or benefits from stupidity, etc.  I don't think that is
> true, and this whole attitude is part of what I want us to try to cure. :)
>
> --Jimbo




From bblackham at san.rr.com  Sat Jul  8 23:02:05 2006
From: bblackham at san.rr.com (Becky Blackham)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 16:02:05 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] We need a short, sweet summary of what we're doing.
In-Reply-To: <482df7800607081502j55de6des59c93a3ce072885c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <482df7800607081502j55de6des59c93a3ce072885c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44B0396D.2010205@san.rr.com>

Hello List Members,

I found this CampaignWikia project from reading "An open letter to the 
political blogosphere" by *Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales, July 4, 2006 * at 
http://www.teambio.org/2006/07/lets-ramp-up-the-intelligence-of-politics/#more-5076

I emphatically agree with the list member who referred to using 
CampaignWikia's _Mission Statement_ as guidance. However, the _Mission 
Statement_ on CampaignWikia is so broad it does not provide structure, 
intentionally so. We are free to develop it, so...

Jim Wale's open letter has so much content usable as potential structure 
either for the CampaignWikia website, or simply to mull over in our 
discussion here.  I will do a  brief outline of his ideas and post it 
here.  Perhaps this will be a good take off point for more ideas, or 
even suffice as an initial structure for the site, to be overhauled, 
evolving as it should be, on an on-going basis.

Becky


mboverload wrote:
> I think we need a single or couple sentence summary of what we are 
> doing exactly.  Any suggestions?
>
> mboverload
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>   



From mtoliveman2002 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  8 23:31:26 2006
From: mtoliveman2002 at yahoo.com (Dean Poirier)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 16:31:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Congressional Term Limits
In-Reply-To: <a6ad714c0607081447rc4f674bxbcd9008b1b5e5d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060708233126.15073.qmail@web33105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

However, you must first contend with roadblocks such
as, U.S. Term Limits v. Thornton (1995). In that case,
the Supreme Court voted 5-4 to strike down
Congressional term limits enacted by the state of
Arkansas.  In 1992, Arkansas voters amended their
state constitution to limit the number of elections in
which one person could run for the U.S.  Senate or
House of Representatives.  Arkansas defended the
measure as an exercise of its constitutional authority
to determine the ?times, places and manner? of
elections.  Writing for a sharply divided Supreme
Court, Justice John Paul Stevens observed that the
Framers intended ?that neither Congress nor the states
should possess the power to supplement the exclusive
qualifications set forth in? Article I.  Stevens
further observed that ?[a]llowing individual states to
craft their own qualifications for Congress would ... 
erode the structure envisioned by the framers.? 
Stevens was joined by Justices Anthony Kennedy, David
Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer.    
Justice Clarence Thomas wrote the dissent, and was
joined by Chief Justice William H.  Rehnquist and
Justices Sandra Day O?Connor and Antonin Scalia. 
Thomas maintained that ?[n]othing in the Constitution
deprives the people of each state of the power to
prescribe eligibility requirements for candidates who
seek to represent them in Congress....  And where the
Constitution is silent, it raises no bar to action by
the states or the people.? In its majority opinion,
the Court recognized cogent arguments on both sides of
the term limits issue.  It concluded, however, that an
issue of this magnitude must be referred to the formal
process by which the Federal Constitution is amended. 
Immediately after the Thornton decision was rendered,
supporters of term limits pledged renewed efforts to
achieve a constitutional amendment to limit the tenure
of members of Congress. That, of course, has not
transpired. 

However, subsequent to the Supreme Court's ruling in
Thornton, some advocates of term limits have sought to
pressure members of Congress and state legislators to
utilize the procedures of Article V of the U.S.
Constitution to amend that document to impose a six
year limit on service in the House and a twelve year
limit on service in the Senate.

--- Nelson Walker <nels96 at gmail.com> wrote:

> It is a mystery to me that, in all the new 'good
> government' websites (like
> wikia) that I come across, I never find any that
> stress the fact that, in
> order to effect REAL reform, it is necessary to have
> a legislature made up
> of 'citizen' legislators, rather than the current
> crop of careerist
> professional politicians. (
> tenurecorrupts.com/#americasfirst )
> 
> And to eliminate professional politicians, it is
> necessary to change
> politics from being a livelihood or career, to
> merely a civic duty, where
> one will try to change government for the better
> during a short stay, then
> return to private practice. That's the way it was
> for the first 150 years of
> our history, before the enticements of politics
> became too good to give up.
> ( tenurecorrupts.com/#followthemoney )
> 
> Politics as a livelihood, or a career, is a
> fundamental conflict of
> interest. When you are supposed to be a
> representative of the people,
> putting their interest, or the country's interest
> before your own, then you
> cannot honestly be in a position to be concerned
> about your job (or your
> reelection). ( tenurecorrupts.com/#reelections )
> 
> i come to wikia in an attempt to correct this void
> in our ongoing dialog. I
> strongly believe that to improve our government, we
> must change the
> character of our Congress, and the most direct way
> to do that is to enact
> Congressional Term Limits.
> 
> Toward this end, I have for the past 2 years been
> building
> tenurecorrupts.com, a website dedicated to educating
> the voting public on
> the need for such limits. The site contains
> arguments (pro and con),
> amendment wording options, links to other sites,
> suggested actions you can
> take to help, etc. The site blog list has
> accumulated over two dozen
> articles on this one subject. ( Boring ?)
> 
> Recently, it has begun offering free term limits
> bumperstickers to all
> comers.
> 
> I would very much like to have the wikia crowd join
> me in discussions to
> exercise this idea, and to help spread the word !
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> Nelson Lee Walker, Saratoga, CA
> http://tenurecorrupts.com
> nels96 at gmail.com   Ph:408-867-2401
> 
> No politician should be allowed unlimited
> reelections... even if he has the
> votes!
> Remember..TENURE CORRUPTS!
> > _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> 


Dean R. Poirier

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From eloquence at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 23:39:45 2006
From: eloquence at gmail.com (Erik Moeller)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 01:39:45 +0200
Subject: [Campaigns-l] We need a short, sweet summary of what we're doing.
In-Reply-To: <482df7800607081502j55de6des59c93a3ce072885c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <482df7800607081502j55de6des59c93a3ce072885c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b80736c80607081639w1957bc06u46cfcfc19c74d5c6@mail.gmail.com>

Currently, the wiki goes very much in the direction of becoming a
knowledge base about current political issues (primarily US, but we've
discussed that already). As has been pointed out, Wikipedia already
has very detailed articles about most of these issues. I would like to
encourage you to review, for instance:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_debate

and in particular the linked to sub-articles. On many controversial
topics, Wikipedia has a layered structure, where readers can zoom into
topics that interest them. There are generally very little limits on
the content, as long as it is verifiable and notable.

Campaigns Wikia could try to break free from the policy impositions of
Wikipedia by rejecting NPOV and "original research" policies. I'm not
convinced that this is the way to go for _this_ wiki. Given that the
call for participation was to a diverse and large group of
individuals, that would likely only result in chaos and fighting
(well, there's chaos now, but it would result in _permanent_ chaos
;-). Wikis are not well-suited as forums either.

I'm also not convinced that Campaigns Wikia should essentially
duplicate Wikipedia content with a slightly different structure. While
it has an impressive community already, Wikipedia has much more
refined and well-developed policies and processes for developing such
content. Please take a look at:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal%3APolitics

and the various pages linked to from there, such as the "WikiProjects"
where individuals can collaborate to write about particular political
topics. Hammering out the same structures and policies all over again
would be a needless effort.

What, then, can the Campaigns Wikia provide?

My own thinking is that the central campaigns wiki should focus on
these two elements:

* an overview (!) of existing political campaigns across the world
(regardless of whether they are driven by political parties, or by
individuals). By overview I mean that the site should focus on
_summaries_ of the positions of each campaign, tabular structures, and
so on, rather than on summarizing debates and arguments
Wikipedia-style.
* strategy documents for political campaigners. How to set up a
netroots campaign -- what tools should be used? What are the benefits
of blogs, wikis, in a campaigning context? What solutions exist for
online fundraising? Etc. Here I think we can make an exception to
Wikipedia's "original research" policies. Past experiences and
results, even if they are not "notable" by Wikipedia criteria, should
be documented.
* starting points and instructions to launch new political campaigns.
This should include an easy process for creating a new Wikia for a
particular campaign (which would be decidedly non-neutral).

In this schema, it also makes sense to organize the central site by
languages, rather than by countries, as it would not so much be a
campaign in itself, but a descriptive and structural effort.

Now, regarding the process of starting a new campaign: currently Wikia
is very much built around the idea of openly editable wikis for
everyone. I'm not convinced this needs to be so for a political
campaign about a particular issue. I would encourage Jimmy and the
company to experiment with alternative models. For instance, a
campaign creator could request a wiki to be initially closed (for an
agreed upon gestation period), to build a community based on
invitations that will be prepared to handle an open wiki later on.

I also believe that wikis are currently not well-suited to serve all
needs of an online political campaign. They are good for developing
campaign-related documents, such as a platform or a list of "talking
points". For keeping members up to date, or for discussing issues,
other tools like blogs or forums seem more appropriate. Perhaps wiki
technology will evolve to meet these needs, but it currently does not.

Does Wikia want to play a role in providing these additional tools? If
not, then it would make sense for the central Campaigns Wikia to also
link to resources where campaigners can easily set up blogs and forums
(preferably free).

This, in a nutshell, is the direction where I think this project can
be taken. However, it is also my belief that the project, if it is to
be successful, will require some clear leadership in its first few
months. So, if the community agrees upon a particular "action plan",
perhaps Wikia staff could play the role of leaders for the time being
in order to move things in that direction.

Erik


From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 00:20:45 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 17:20:45 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Page format idea from MorePerfect
Message-ID: <801553ab0607081720s3b64e618scaf605b7fe289e26@mail.gmail.com>

I was looking through moreperfect.org, and I noticed their method of
separating their articles into background, pro, con, more info, etc.  I was
wondering how others felt about this, and if it could work here.  Would
there be any possibility of modifying the render code to put links to these
types of sub-articles just under the article/discussion links?

-- 
Chad Lupkes
Seattle
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From mboverload at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 01:11:03 2006
From: mboverload at gmail.com (mboverload)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 18:11:03 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] We need a short, sweet summary of what we're doing.
In-Reply-To: <b80736c80607081639w1957bc06u46cfcfc19c74d5c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <482df7800607081502j55de6des59c93a3ce072885c@mail.gmail.com>
	<b80736c80607081639w1957bc06u46cfcfc19c74d5c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482df7800607081811w71ec557fx4efed1f0147de5e@mail.gmail.com>

Another important question:

How are we different than Wikipedia?  What policies do we adopt and what do
we toss aside?
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From bblackham at san.rr.com  Sun Jul  9 01:44:03 2006
From: bblackham at san.rr.com (Becky Blackham)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 18:44:03 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] We need a short, sweet summary of what we're
	doing.
In-Reply-To: <b80736c80607081639w1957bc06u46cfcfc19c74d5c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <482df7800607081502j55de6des59c93a3ce072885c@mail.gmail.com>
	<b80736c80607081639w1957bc06u46cfcfc19c74d5c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44B05F63.2070702@san.rr.com>

About structuring this wiki? Form follows function. This is what many of 
you are saying with many specific examples, with many ideas of what 
functions CampaignWikia should have.

So, about function...

from Jim Wales'  "Open Letter," July 4th, 2006.
I don't know the right protocol for using the text of Jimbo's letter 
this way. You all know this is his writing broken up into my scratch pad 
form...

I looked for functional elements of the message, adding the logical 
connectors for a "Q & A" format.
------------------------------------------

    We do it; make things happen; hallmark of blog and wiki world.

Make what happen?

1. Making campaigns take notice of the Internet,
    bloggers, wikis, and engage with us in a constructive way.   

For what goal. . . ?

    2. We work to educate and engage campaigns about
     how to stop being broadcast politicians,
     start being community and participatory politicians.

Be participatory in what way?

    3. Force campaigns to use wikis and blogs
     to organize, discuss, manage, lead and be led by
    their volunteers

So that ...?

    4. Have campaigns engaging ordinary people
     in understanding and caring how political
     issues really affect their lives

"This can be the start of the era
of net-driven participatory politics."
--------------------------------------------
Our more intelligent, participatory political system.

Now take my scratch pad text and break it up with more questions. I 
think *these* we need to think about and answer before settling on a 
structure. Form enables and follows function. It's a useful perspective, 
anyway. :)

How do we make campaigns sit up and take notice of blogs and wikis?  How 
do we educate and engage campaigns/politicians?  What would a community 
and participatory politicians and people do using wikis and blogs? How 
do we force campaigns to use wikis and blogs?


Becky


Erik Moeller wrote:
> Currently, the wiki goes very much in the direction of becoming a
> knowledge base about current political issues (primarily US, but we've
> discussed that already). As has been pointed out, Wikipedia already
> has very detailed articles about most of these issues. I would like to
> encourage you to review, for instance:
>
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_debate
>
> and in particular the linked to sub-articles. On many controversial
> topics, Wikipedia has a layered structure, where readers can zoom into
> topics that interest them. There are generally very little limits on
> the content, as long as it is verifiable and notable.
>
> Campaigns Wikia could try to break free from the policy impositions of
> Wikipedia by rejecting NPOV and "original research" policies. I'm not
> convinced that this is the way to go for _this_ wiki. Given that the
> call for participation was to a diverse and large group of
> individuals, that would likely only result in chaos and fighting
> (well, there's chaos now, but it would result in _permanent_ chaos
> ;-). Wikis are not well-suited as forums either.
>
> I'm also not convinced that Campaigns Wikia should essentially
> duplicate Wikipedia content with a slightly different structure. While
> it has an impressive community already, Wikipedia has much more
> refined and well-developed policies and processes for developing such
> content. Please take a look at:
>
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal%3APolitics
>
> and the various pages linked to from there, such as the "WikiProjects"
> where individuals can collaborate to write about particular political
> topics. Hammering out the same structures and policies all over again
> would be a needless effort.
>
> What, then, can the Campaigns Wikia provide?
>
> My own thinking is that the central campaigns wiki should focus on
> these two elements:
>
> * an overview (!) of existing political campaigns across the world
> (regardless of whether they are driven by political parties, or by
> individuals). By overview I mean that the site should focus on
> _summaries_ of the positions of each campaign, tabular structures, and
> so on, rather than on summarizing debates and arguments
> Wikipedia-style.
> * strategy documents for political campaigners. How to set up a
> netroots campaign -- what tools should be used? What are the benefits
> of blogs, wikis, in a campaigning context? What solutions exist for
> online fundraising? Etc. Here I think we can make an exception to
> Wikipedia's "original research" policies. Past experiences and
> results, even if they are not "notable" by Wikipedia criteria, should
> be documented.
> * starting points and instructions to launch new political campaigns.
> This should include an easy process for creating a new Wikia for a
> particular campaign (which would be decidedly non-neutral).
>
> In this schema, it also makes sense to organize the central site by
> languages, rather than by countries, as it would not so much be a
> campaign in itself, but a descriptive and structural effort.
>
> Now, regarding the process of starting a new campaign: currently Wikia
> is very much built around the idea of openly editable wikis for
> everyone. I'm not convinced this needs to be so for a political
> campaign about a particular issue. I would encourage Jimmy and the
> company to experiment with alternative models. For instance, a
> campaign creator could request a wiki to be initially closed (for an
> agreed upon gestation period), to build a community based on
> invitations that will be prepared to handle an open wiki later on.
>
> I also believe that wikis are currently not well-suited to serve all
> needs of an online political campaign. They are good for developing
> campaign-related documents, such as a platform or a list of "talking
> points". For keeping members up to date, or for discussing issues,
> other tools like blogs or forums seem more appropriate. Perhaps wiki
> technology will evolve to meet these needs, but it currently does not.
>
> Does Wikia want to play a role in providing these additional tools? If
> not, then it would make sense for the central Campaigns Wikia to also
> link to resources where campaigners can easily set up blogs and forums
> (preferably free).
>
> This, in a nutshell, is the direction where I think this project can
> be taken. However, it is also my belief that the project, if it is to
> be successful, will require some clear leadership in its first few
> months. So, if the community agrees upon a particular "action plan",
> perhaps Wikia staff could play the role of leaders for the time being
> in order to move things in that direction.
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>



From lucychili at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 02:13:27 2006
From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 11:43:27 +0930
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Going down the wrong path?
In-Reply-To: <8C870C087ADA908-BF0-974@mblk-d37.sysops.aol.com>
References: <b80736c80607061716ode33273m5367a17dbeda5522@mail.gmail.com>
	<4725C956-DCB2-4DE5-8614-2113AD092A06@samurai.com>
	<54760dab0607070918i1628c952r1ce9806c62b966e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<801553ab0607071115w6a67a18eyf51bda9364c9e9c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AEC712.9040602@newsguy.com>
	<801553ab0607071504g48b62665je2a484c4ad84e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<44AF12F3.9060401@wikia.com> <042d01c6a246$dfe56100$72ce3e18@Stephen>
	<44AFC820.8020408@wikia.com>
	<8C870C087ADA908-BF0-974@mblk-d37.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <c9d7bc330607081913l29a2eccfye82e217af588a44e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/9/06, Randy wrote:

> A sort out on what issue belongs to whom and a  sort out on each issue would
> be very valuable to a reader.

There are two main theories for the purpose of the c.wiki emerging.
One is a document model.
One is a process model.

The folk behind the document model are asking for an objective map of
the political spectrum with a list of issues and the folk who think
which way listed.
Similar to an encyclopedia but it would be something which probably
shifted around as issues and people changed over time.

The folk behind the process model are looking for a place to pick
apart an issue and form a new kind of policy based on letting go of
the idea that someone is inherently pro or against an issue(ie they
would vote for or against) and swapping that for the person's
opportunity to collaborate on a document or set of options documents
which map our best efforts at finding a constructive best fit of the
issue for all of us here.

Perhpas the answer is to make two.
One which does the first kind of mudmap and one which attempts the second.
Both are ambitious projects in their own right.

> A list of issues and who supports what. Then debate the issues would be a
> good operational policy. The more the even hand of a referee on keeping mud
> slinging out of this and personal lives out of this the more interested I
> am.

I am a process person. I do have a position I could put myself on for
at least one issue. But that for me is not why I am here.
I want to find out more about what other people think on an issue and then find
perhaps a better position to find myself in at the end of the discussion.
ie. For me listing the starting points would compromise the quality of
the discussion and set up a win v lose structure.
For process people I suspect the goal is for something which lets go of that
as a first step.

> I would like to see some statesmanship/stateswomanship brought back into
> government. That means people debating over issues not personalities.

We share that hope. =)

Janet


From vertigosteve at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  9 04:23:27 2006
From: vertigosteve at yahoo.com (stevertigo)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 21:23:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Short sweet critique
In-Reply-To: <44B05F63.2070702@san.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20060709042327.45894.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Becky Blackham <bblackham at san.rr.com> wrote:

> About structuring this wiki? Form follows function. This is what many of 
> you are saying with many specific examples, with many ideas of what 
> functions CampaignWikia should have.

Before things get too far along, we should start with a critique of Jimbo's initial
premise.
Overuse of the term "wiki" has made the term a misnomer in its own right, and as such
seems to need clarifying and maybe redefining.  

"Wiki" is just one flavor of CMS, which itself is simply a platform for organizing text
and other information. The term "wiki" itself  carries an implicit connotation or else
has some dogmatic association with a particular notion of openness,such that, at
superficial glance, a "wiki" would appear to suited for almost anything. 
Nothing could be further from the truth, and even in the context of Wikipedia, the
software has had to undergo some serious upgrades and adaptations to suit the
particular needs of an encyclopedia. It needs more, and there are slightly more ideas
than pro bono programmers to program them.  If trust metrics are added, some purists
might even disagree with the notion that Wikipedia was any longer a "wiki" in the
original sense of the word.

It would of course be ironic if the software used to power Wikipedia needed to go in a
direction not typically associated with the term "wiki," such that the name "Wikipedia"
itself had become a misnomer. I never liked the term or the name anyway, and anyway the
point of an encyclopedia isnt the tool it runs on, but rather  1)  the fact that its an
encyclopedia, and has some standards for objectivity, factualness, completenss, and
exposition and 2) its based on openness, freedom, collaboration, collective expression,
and community. 

None of that is in fact implied within the term "wiki", and therefore our common usage
of it has entered the realm of a dogma, rather than a definition. Simply using CMS
would suffice, and most CMS's these days have included wiki-like features anyway. Becky
is right -form follows function, not the other way around.

Steven


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From ch at awry.ws  Sun Jul  9 04:27:54 2006
From: ch at awry.ws (Chris Haumesser)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 21:27:54 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] political architecture, participatory politics
Message-ID: <44B085CA.9020009@awry.ws>

I welcome the use of Internet tools as a catalyst for political reform.
 Hats off to you, Mr. Wales, for kicking us off (albeit rather blindly).

I've been impressed with many of the ideas I've seen represented in the
list traffic.  I hope that this endeavor will evolve into an open
alternative to the policy "think tanks" that operate largely in opaque
partisanship today.

I have two further thoughts to throw into the ring.

1.  As Mitch Kapor says, "Politics is Architecture"
<http://blog.kapor.com/?p=29>.

I firmly agree with Mitch that meaningful reform will not happen in
government until its outdated architecture changes considerably, or is
replaced entirely.

To paraphrase Buckminster Fuller, struggling against the existing
paradigm can be futile; radical change comes about with a new, more
compelling paradigm that renders the existing model obsolete.

What will be the features of this new paradigm?  What have we learned
from 230 years of democracy in America that we can apply in designing a
new, more compelling paradigm of participatory, open democracy?

I think an open design process for such a new political architecture is
essential to the efforts of reform.


2.  A lot people in my circle agree that big media is a primary culprit
in our current political quagmire.  It occurred to me last night that
politics is just another random bit of information that flashes past my
eyes on the LCD every day (or worse, for most Americans, on the TV).
Politics has simply become part of the information diet we are fed,
nothing more, nothing less.

I personally cannot recall any political representative or candidate, at
any level of government, *ever* soliciting my opinion or feedback on a
single issue.  There is no accountability to constituents in the current
system, and that has to change.

No wonder people feel that politics is irrelevant in their lives!

My personal view is that mainstream politicians hide behind the media,
including the Internet.  We need to push them back out into the
communities, to engage with the electorate and revive genuine political
discourse.

But we, the people, can take back the political discourse too, with the
will and the right tools.

Thus, I also believe that an important feature of the political
wikiscape should include real, practical information on how to organize
grassroots campaigns, break through to people on a local level, and
bring about change from the bottom up.  There are plenty of angry and
disenfranchised people in this country right now who would jump at an
opportunity to change things... if only they knew where to start, or
what to do, or how to go about doing it.  Harnessing this unrest could
prove a tremendous asset.


If you've made it this far, thanks for reading.  I look forward to
following the progress of this intriguing new Pandora's box Mr. Wales
has unhinged.


-C-




From bblackham at san.rr.com  Sun Jul  9 05:24:15 2006
From: bblackham at san.rr.com (Becky Blackham)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 22:24:15 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Short sweet critique
In-Reply-To: <20060709042327.45894.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060709042327.45894.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <44B092FF.9090803@san.rr.com>

Steven, I appreciate this response because I am none to clear about the 
meaning of the term "wiki," and the programming, or types of 
programming, that enable the sites named with some variant of "wiki." 
Wikipedia is the ubiquitous example, yet there seem to be new "wikis" 
appearing on the web at an exponential rate. Your discussion has 
clarified much, yet like any good explanation, leads to more questions. 
:-) I will do some reading on CMS and get more background for this project.

I see so many different functions being discussed, and a good start on 
weeding out those which are duplicative.  I started out entranced with 
the ideas presented in J. Wales' letter. Obviously I think his is a good 
front runner for what to be developed further. It remains to be seen if 
that vision of a net driven, new participatory politic will be adopted 
by those wishing to work on CampaignWikia. If so, the tools actually 
required to enable his function, as I understand it, are still 
uncertain. A platform for organizing text and other information seems 
like it would be a solid tool.

Would you explain what you mean by "trust metric," below?

Becky

stevertigo wrote:
> --- Becky Blackham <bblackham at san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> About structuring this wiki? Form follows function. This is what many of 
>> you are saying with many specific examples, with many ideas of what 
>> functions CampaignWikia should have.
>>     
>
> Before things get too far along, we should start with a critique of Jimbo's initial
> premise.
> Overuse of the term "wiki" has made the term a misnomer in its own right, and as such
> seems to need clarifying and maybe redefining.  
>
> "Wiki" is just one flavor of CMS, which itself is simply a platform for organizing text
> and other information. The term "wiki" itself  carries an implicit connotation or else
> has some dogmatic association with a particular notion of openness,such that, at
> superficial glance, a "wiki" would appear to suited for almost anything. 
> Nothing could be further from the truth, and even in the context of Wikipedia, the
> software has had to undergo some serious upgrades and adaptations to suit the
> particular needs of an encyclopedia. It needs more, and there are slightly more ideas
> than pro bono programmers to program them.  If trust metrics are added, some purists
> might even disagree with the notion that Wikipedia was any longer a "wiki" in the
> original sense of the word.
>
> It would of course be ironic if the software used to power Wikipedia needed to go in a
> direction not typically associated with the term "wiki," such that the name "Wikipedia"
> itself had become a misnomer. I never liked the term or the name anyway, and anyway the
> point of an encyclopedia isnt the tool it runs on, but rather  1)  the fact that its an
> encyclopedia, and has some standards for objectivity, factualness, completenss, and
> exposition and 2) its based on openness, freedom, collaboration, collective expression,
> and community. 
>
> None of that is in fact implied within the term "wiki", and therefore our common usage
> of it has entered the realm of a dogma, rather than a definition. Simply using CMS
> would suffice, and most CMS's these days have included wiki-like features anyway. Becky
> is right -form follows function, not the other way around.
>
> Steven
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>   



From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 05:43:30 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 22:43:30 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Can I delete?
Message-ID: <801553ab0607082243h36248636ia30ee0ce0237e0a@mail.gmail.com>

http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Sex

-- 
Chad Lupkes
Democracy for Washington
http://www.democracyforwashington.com
Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
http://pdcw.org

If Democrats have a pre-911 view of the world, Republicans have a pre-July
4th view of the world.  Go back to King George, shall we?  Not while I'm
still breathing.

The purpose of a political party is to turn the views and values of its
members into public policy. - Russel Wallace, Democracy for Wisconsin

Blah, blah, blah!!!  What do we do about it!!

Anyone want a roll-top desk?
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/fur/178052982.html
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From vertigosteve at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  9 06:12:45 2006
From: vertigosteve at yahoo.com (stevertigo)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 23:12:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Short sweet critique
In-Reply-To: <44B092FF.9090803@san.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20060709061245.699.qmail@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Becky Blackham <bblackham at san.rr.com> wrote:

> Steven, I appreciate this response because I am none to clear about the 
> meaning of the term "wiki," and the programming, or types of 
> programming, that enable the sites named with some variant of "wiki." 
....
> It remains to be seen if that vision of a net driven, new participatory politic will
be adopted 
> by those wishing to work on CampaignWikia. 
....
> Would you explain what you mean by "trust metric," below?


Hi Becky.

Note that CMS itself is just a term to refer to information management by humans for
humans, and humans use different types of information. Information on Wikipedia may be
very much like 'facts' and 'data' but other functions might require different kind of
information. Craigslist presents information which is less 'fact' than it is
'intelligence'  regarding whats going on, whose selling what, etc. If we really want to
take the CMS concept to its full abstraction, we could even call newspapers CMS's, were
the system is a human one, and the sofware is simply a mode or tool. 

Anything political would naturally imply some notion of active data - intelligence on
whats going on currently.  Whatever other kind of data, some of which may not be
compatible with the notion of openness and free information. Politics tends to be
cliquish, wheras Encyclopedia writing tends to be not. Its similar to my critique of
Wikinews in that newspapers typically have some editorial structure, collaborate in
secret on stories, have confidential sources, have attribution, etc. etc. Again, form
and function.

Thats out of the way. "Trust metric" refers to the usage of programmed application of
mathematical formulas to derive values (metrics) which can be useful for ascertaining
the validity, authority, legitimacy, ("trust") of persons. We generally make such
judgments based on other real life factors, many of which are not available to us on
the web, and because the web allows for more massively parallel communications, the
term "trust metric" implies some way to make collective personal judgments in a way
thats both efficient and quantified.

The part of just making judgments ("rating") is often just one side of the coin, though
that alone might be good enough, as people could simply agree to abide by the numbers. 
The other half of course is using such ratings in a way which makes whatver your doing
more efficient. In the case of Wikipedia that typically means that higher ratings would
translate into greater voting power in settling disputes. The idea is that you have to
spend less time training or curbing newbies, and explaining yourself on the talk pages,
and more time editing. 

Of course such usage of such data would be controversial, as it would seem to
contradict the notion that all editors are automatically equal.' Such system would have
to be "seeded" based on some initial personal judgements, and would carry the assumtion
that those of higher rank would in fact be in agreement on the fundamentals, and not
skewed toward a particular bias.  We would hope that members of the legal profession,
for example would strive toward more universal ethics and principles, but history shows
that practitioners often have other biases, and principle itself is only cited where
its convenient.

In other words, the notion that value can be programmed and thus somewhat automated
(ie. bypass discussion, be taken as fact) has the serious problem that any inherent
flaws would show themselves as complexities in their own right, over and above whatever
problem its supposed to solve to begin with.

Steven





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From joe at daverin.com  Sun Jul  9 08:22:51 2006
From: joe at daverin.com (Joe Daverin)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 04:22:51 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] deletion
Message-ID: <44B0BCDB.8030506@daverin.com>

hi,

i think i got a little overzealous early on and created too many pages. 
i think some of these pages are pretty unnecessary, and i was trying to 
figure out the policy for asking that they be deleted?

thanks
joe daverin


From bblackham at san.rr.com  Sun Jul  9 08:34:05 2006
From: bblackham at san.rr.com (Becky Blackham)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 01:34:05 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] deletion
In-Reply-To: <44B0BCDB.8030506@daverin.com>
References: <44B0BCDB.8030506@daverin.com>
Message-ID: <44B0BF7D.8040701@san.rr.com>


Hi, Joe. :-)

I think, at least on Wikipedia, you are encouraged to delete them 
yourself... or are we locked out of this at CampaignWikia?  I was 
wondering about that myself. I'm going to have a look, too.

brb,
Becky

Joe Daverin wrote:
> hi,
>
> i think i got a little overzealous early on and created too many 
> pages. i think some of these pages are pretty unnecessary, and i was 
> trying to figure out the policy for asking that they be deleted?
>
> thanks
> joe daverin
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>



From bblackham at san.rr.com  Sun Jul  9 08:42:39 2006
From: bblackham at san.rr.com (Becky Blackham)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 01:42:39 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Short sweet critique
In-Reply-To: <20060709061245.699.qmail@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060709061245.699.qmail@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <44B0C17F.4080509@san.rr.com>

Hello, Steven.

Fascinating!  Thank you so very much for the explanation of "trust 
metric" -- I was quite surprised (even though I lived in the classified 
community for a time).  I'm happy to have more to absorb and synthesize 
from your further explanation of CMS.  I want to present my thoughts 
compatibly to the site's collaborators and to understand the tools as 
well as possible.

The distinction between fact and intelligence, your definitions for 
each, are all very helpful. It seems the c-wiki (did you call it that?) 
we are using has the useful quality of being very efficiently revisable. 
There's both speed and ease of access to revise and the potential 
massively parallel collaboration to do as much work as required. (I am 
staying out of the value/"trust" dimension for now).

I do see that the attempt to employ an efficient value assigning system 
layers another set of problems over the problem intended to be solved. 
Some thought needed on that for this project... :-)

Becky


stevertigo wrote:
> --- Becky Blackham <bblackham at san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Steven, I appreciate this response because I am none to clear about the 
>> meaning of the term "wiki," and the programming, or types of 
>> programming, that enable the sites named with some variant of "wiki." 
>>     
> ....
>   
>> It remains to be seen if that vision of a net driven, new participatory politic will
>>     
> be adopted 
>   
>> by those wishing to work on CampaignWikia. 
>>     
> ....
>   
>> Would you explain what you mean by "trust metric," below?
>>     
>
>
> Hi Becky.
>
> Note that CMS itself is just a term to refer to information management by humans for
> humans, and humans use different types of information. Information on Wikipedia may be
> very much like 'facts' and 'data' but other functions might require different kind of
> information. Craigslist presents information which is less 'fact' than it is
> 'intelligence'  regarding whats going on, whose selling what, etc. If we really want to
> take the CMS concept to its full abstraction, we could even call newspapers CMS's, were
> the system is a human one, and the sofware is simply a mode or tool. 
>
> Anything political would naturally imply some notion of active data - intelligence on
> whats going on currently.  Whatever other kind of data, some of which may not be
> compatible with the notion of openness and free information. Politics tends to be
> cliquish, wheras Encyclopedia writing tends to be not. Its similar to my critique of
> Wikinews in that newspapers typically have some editorial structure, collaborate in
> secret on stories, have confidential sources, have attribution, etc. etc. Again, form
> and function.
>
> Thats out of the way. "Trust metric" refers to the usage of programmed application of
> mathematical formulas to derive values (metrics) which can be useful for ascertaining
> the validity, authority, legitimacy, ("trust") of persons. We generally make such
> judgments based on other real life factors, many of which are not available to us on
> the web, and because the web allows for more massively parallel communications, the
> term "trust metric" implies some way to make collective personal judgments in a way
> thats both efficient and quantified.
>
> The part of just making judgments ("rating") is often just one side of the coin, though
> that alone might be good enough, as people could simply agree to abide by the numbers. 
> The other half of course is using such ratings in a way which makes whatver your doing
> more efficient. In the case of Wikipedia that typically means that higher ratings would
> translate into greater voting power in settling disputes. The idea is that you have to
> spend less time training or curbing newbies, and explaining yourself on the talk pages,
> and more time editing. 
>
> Of course such usage of such data would be controversial, as it would seem to
> contradict the notion that all editors are automatically equal.' Such system would have
> to be "seeded" based on some initial personal judgements, and would carry the assumtion
> that those of higher rank would in fact be in agreement on the fundamentals, and not
> skewed toward a particular bias.  We would hope that members of the legal profession,
> for example would strive toward more universal ethics and principles, but history shows
> that practitioners often have other biases, and principle itself is only cited where
> its convenient.
>
> In other words, the notion that value can be programmed and thus somewhat automated
> (ie. bypass discussion, be taken as fact) has the serious problem that any inherent
> flaws would show themselves as complexities in their own right, over and above whatever
> problem its supposed to solve to begin with.
>
> Steven
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>   



From bblackham at san.rr.com  Sun Jul  9 09:00:46 2006
From: bblackham at san.rr.com (Becky Blackham)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 02:00:46 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] deletion
In-Reply-To: <44B0BCDB.8030506@daverin.com>
References: <44B0BCDB.8030506@daverin.com>
Message-ID: <44B0C5BE.8040104@san.rr.com>

Hi Joe,

I think you can delete the page by editing (deleting) the content.  Our 
Wikia didn't have this, but the main Wikia site did. Check this,

http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Deletion
and this
http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia:Candidates_for_speedy_deletion

I looked at some random pages, looks like you really could just wipe out 
the text. I think then inserting the delete tag (you see in the second 
link) into the edit box, and/or a simple signed request to delete, left 
in the  comments section for "Admin" would do it.

Becky

Joe Daverin wrote:
> hi,
>
> i think i got a little overzealous early on and created too many 
> pages. i think some of these pages are pretty unnecessary, and i was 
> trying to figure out the policy for asking that they be deleted?
>
> thanks
> joe daverin
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>



From kmccook at tampabay.rr.com  Sun Jul  9 11:56:30 2006
From: kmccook at tampabay.rr.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kathleen_de_la_Pe=F1a_McCook?=)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 07:56:30 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Can I delete?
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607082243h36248636ia30ee0ce0237e0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44B0B6AE.23285.2563FBB@localhost>

Why delete? Randy Cunningham's full story may well include sex. Never 
forget Kim Philby, Bob Livingston,  Wilbur Mills, Henry Hyde, and 
many more.

On 8 Jul 2006 at 22:43, Chad Lupkes wrote:

> 
> http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Sex
> -- 
> Chad Lupkes
> Democracy for Washington
> http://www.democracyforwashington.com 
> Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
> http://pdcw.org
Union Librarian
http://unionlibrarian.blogspot.com/
AFT Local 7463


From aljones15 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 12:23:13 2006
From: aljones15 at gmail.com (Andrew Jones)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 20:23:13 +0800
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 21
In-Reply-To: <20060709084249.D164EB985AD@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
References: <20060709084249.D164EB985AD@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
Message-ID: <f2e406010607090523g66e7217dk45d2ad652b9d405e@mail.gmail.com>

It is a mystery to me that, in all the new 'good government' websites
> (like wikia) that I come across, I never find any that stress the fact that,
> in order to effect REAL reform, it is necessary to have a legislature made
> up of 'citizen' legislators, rather than the current crop of careerist
> professional politicians. ( tenurecorrupts.com/#americasfirst )
>
> And to eliminate professional politicians, it is necessary to change
> politics from being a livelihood or career, to merely a civic duty, where
> one will try to change government for the better during a short stay, then
> return to private practice. That's the way it was for the first 150 years of
> our history, before the enticements of politics became too good to give up.
> ( tenurecorrupts.com/#followthemoney )

While a more distributed form of government is certianly possible
thanks for the internet
One of the reasons I joined this list was to ask if it was possible to
make any of the following things.

A. the u.s. government allows anyone to draft a bill (even people
outside of the U.S.). It would be interesting to create a wiki where
people could edit and comment on proposed bills and endorse them i.e.
drafts could be like petitions with people signing that they endorse a
bill and then a copy of the bill is sent to all represenatives that
have constituents that signed the bill. This would give represenatives
a good idea of what people in their districts want and would also take
some of the pressure off staff to read through 600 page bills etc.
Represenatives do not have to introduce drafts from their
constituents, but if this would let citizens lobby for bills they want
while gaining expertise and comments from a wide variety of people.

B. Referendums are quite common in the U.S. and are an excellent way
to avoid the usual problems of politics and have ranged from stem-cell
bills in California to bans on gay marriage. A site that let's people
propose referendums, keep track of referendums in their state or city
and other things like that would be great. And again, you post a
referendum, discuss it, and edit it, and then people could download
and send it in, so you could start collecting signatures. I might add
that the Florida Gerrymandering ref, is already being done in this
way. You can download a statement, sign it, and mail it in to have
your signature counted.

Anyway, wikia seems like a nice attempt to chroncile how the u.s.
government works and what people want to change.

Kind Regards,
A


From silona at LeagueofTechVoters.org  Sat Jul  8 05:31:06 2006
From: silona at LeagueofTechVoters.org (Silona Bonewald)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 00:31:06 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Welcome; getting down to work :)
In-Reply-To: <44AD9AF1.4060208@wikia.com>
References: <44AD9AF1.4060208@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <44AF431A.6070205@LeagueofTechVoters.org>

I would like to suggest another section: a semantic structure for the 
LEGISLATION as it is created, proposed, amended and voted upon.  The 
legislation is a great factual and unbiased way to track the legislators 
on the issues that are near and dear to their hearts.  It is a critical 
feature we are going to be creating for the league of technical voters site.

My goal is to keep everything open so the semantic legislative structure 
is transparent! 

One central store of the legislative information, that anyone could link 
to, would be an awesomely powerful tool. 

For the League, we will have the blogging and social networking along 
with the integrated community tools.  I love the idea of having all this 
edited information available to link to as a resource.  Lets keep it all 
open so we can share!  I am creating all our tools Open Source.  And I 
have several NPO's that are already waiting for them to be available!

Cheers,
Silona


From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 14:57:36 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 07:57:36 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] deletion
In-Reply-To: <44B0C5BE.8040104@san.rr.com>
References: <44B0BCDB.8030506@daverin.com> <44B0C5BE.8040104@san.rr.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607090757s4aa54926p333bc07cf5f26419@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone can clear content, but only sysops can actually delete.  Which pages?

On 7/9/06, Becky Blackham <bblackham at san.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> I think you can delete the page by editing (deleting) the content.  Our
> Wikia didn't have this, but the main Wikia site did. Check this,
>
> http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Deletion
> and this
> http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia:Candidates_for_speedy_deletion
>
> I looked at some random pages, looks like you really could just wipe out
> the text. I think then inserting the delete tag (you see in the second
> link) into the edit box, and/or a simple signed request to delete, left
> in the  comments section for "Admin" would do it.
>
> Becky
>
> Joe Daverin wrote:
> > hi,
> >
> > i think i got a little overzealous early on and created too many
> > pages. i think some of these pages are pretty unnecessary, and i was
> > trying to figure out the policy for asking that they be deleted?
> >
> > thanks
> > joe daverin
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From artie at artiefacts.com  Sun Jul  9 15:19:48 2006
From: artie at artiefacts.com (Artie)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 10:19:48 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Short sweet critique
In-Reply-To: <20060709042327.45894.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060709042327.45894.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <44B11E94.2080602@artiefacts.com>

stevertigo wrote:

>
>"Wiki" is just one flavor of CMS, which itself is simply a platform for organizing text
>and other information. The term "wiki" itself  carries an implicit connotation or else
>has some dogmatic association with a particular notion of openness,such that, at
>superficial glance, a "wiki" would appear to suited for almost anything.
>
For the record, CMS is "content management system."  Blogs, wikis and 
other learning management systems all fall under this genral umbrella 
term. "Wiki" is the Hawaiian word for "quick."  Wikis are quick because 
there is no HTML to compose and upload via FTP.  Wikis don't necessarily 
connote openness.

Artie



From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 15:24:30 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 08:24:30 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 21
In-Reply-To: <f2e406010607090523g66e7217dk45d2ad652b9d405e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060709084249.D164EB985AD@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
	<f2e406010607090523g66e7217dk45d2ad652b9d405e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607090824x6568efb8lf3bfec8b50d27ec3@mail.gmail.com>

Already exists, right here on Wikia.

http://congress.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

It's not being used by anyone at the moment, so feel free.

Chad

On 7/9/06, Andrew Jones <aljones15 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It is a mystery to me that, in all the new 'good government' websites
> > (like wikia) that I come across, I never find any that stress the fact
> that,
> > in order to effect REAL reform, it is necessary to have a legislature
> made
> > up of 'citizen' legislators, rather than the current crop of careerist
> > professional politicians. ( tenurecorrupts.com/#americasfirst )
> >
> > And to eliminate professional politicians, it is necessary to change
> > politics from being a livelihood or career, to merely a civic duty,
> where
> > one will try to change government for the better during a short stay,
> then
> > return to private practice. That's the way it was for the first 150
> years of
> > our history, before the enticements of politics became too good to give
> up.
> > ( tenurecorrupts.com/#followthemoney )
>
> While a more distributed form of government is certianly possible
> thanks for the internet
> One of the reasons I joined this list was to ask if it was possible to
> make any of the following things.
>
> A. the u.s. government allows anyone to draft a bill (even people
> outside of the U.S.). It would be interesting to create a wiki where
> people could edit and comment on proposed bills and endorse them i.e.
> drafts could be like petitions with people signing that they endorse a
> bill and then a copy of the bill is sent to all represenatives that
> have constituents that signed the bill. This would give represenatives
> a good idea of what people in their districts want and would also take
> some of the pressure off staff to read through 600 page bills etc.
> Represenatives do not have to introduce drafts from their
> constituents, but if this would let citizens lobby for bills they want
> while gaining expertise and comments from a wide variety of people.
>
> B. Referendums are quite common in the U.S. and are an excellent way
> to avoid the usual problems of politics and have ranged from stem-cell
> bills in California to bans on gay marriage. A site that let's people
> propose referendums, keep track of referendums in their state or city
> and other things like that would be great. And again, you post a
> referendum, discuss it, and edit it, and then people could download
> and send it in, so you could start collecting signatures. I might add
> that the Florida Gerrymandering ref, is already being done in this
> way. You can download a statement, sign it, and mail it in to have
> your signature counted.
>
> Anyway, wikia seems like a nice attempt to chroncile how the u.s.
> government works and what people want to change.
>
> Kind Regards,
> A
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>



-- 
Chad Lupkes
Democracy for Washington
http://www.democracyforwashington.com
Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
http://pdcw.org

If Democrats have a pre-911 view of the world, Republicans have a pre-July
4th view of the world.  Go back to King George, shall we?  Not while I'm
still breathing.

The purpose of a political party is to turn the views and values of its
members into public policy. - Russel Wallace, Democracy for Wisconsin

Blah, blah, blah!!!  What do we do about it!!

Anyone want a roll-top desk?
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/fur/178052982.html
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From lucychili at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 15:28:12 2006
From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 00:58:12 +0930
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Short sweet critique
In-Reply-To: <44B11E94.2080602@artiefacts.com>
References: <20060709042327.45894.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<44B11E94.2080602@artiefacts.com>
Message-ID: <c9d7bc330607090828l76b49cecg5d8c3940b118da1d@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/06, Artie <artie at artiefacts.com> wrote:

> For the record, CMS is "content management system."  Blogs, wikis and
> other learning management systems all fall under this genral umbrella
> term. "Wiki" is the Hawaiian word for "quick."  Wikis are quick because
> there is no HTML to compose and upload via FTP.  Wikis don't necessarily
> connote openness.

but they very often are used where people want openness.

The two main features that make wiki fairly resilient for open editing
is that its easy  to put stuff in, and its easy for folks to see when
Ive got it half right and to fix it.
It is also easy to go back a few steps if the last couple of attempts
were off the track. I think it is probably the easiest kind of CMS
with that kind of revision control.

It also links together with concepts so people can thread stuff
without access to a template or other non trivial component of the CMS
normally reserved for admins.
Many CMS applications allow people to edit content, wikis are the main
example of the visitor being able to define overall structure by
making a link and putting stuff into it.

Janet


From vertigosteve at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  9 15:41:20 2006
From: vertigosteve at yahoo.com (stevertigo)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 08:41:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Short sweet critique
In-Reply-To: <44B0C17F.4080509@san.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20060709154120.87912.qmail@web32207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Becky Blackham <bblackham at san.rr.com> wrote:
> Thank you so very much for the explanation of "trust 
> metric" 

:)

> The distinction between fact and intelligence, your definitions for 
> each, are all very helpful. It seems the c-wiki (did you call it that?) 
> we are using has the useful quality of being very efficiently revisable. 
> There's both speed and ease of access to revise and the potential 
> massively parallel collaboration to do as much work as required. 

Thanks Becky, and youre more than welcome. Youre right about using wiki for a startup,
and its good enough for most things for that purpose. To a large extent theres enough
flexibility in the software to make it do whatever you want, as long as there is a core
purpose to make it something other than just a "wiki." 

Im still stuck thinking more in the Wikipedia dimension, as it has gotten busier than
most people can even think about. But just taking a bellweather as an example, WP now
has a huge backlog at WP:RQM - almost 1000 sysops and a backlog on requests for page
moves! That speaks volumes to anyone who understands how important the balances are.
The *functional standard for content over there isnt NPOV or encyclopedic value - its
something like ''if its not vandalism' it's at least debatable and may stay, and if its
true it will endure in substance, if not in the particular form it was written.''

With all that data (some of it "facts") comes the need for increased intelligence on
that data; for example WP:RC has long been useless for keeping up with things going on,
and other tools like watchlists, spam and vandal fighting helpers, and a whole bunch of
others have been developed. Some of these tools, as they are implemented by savvy
people, could be said to deviate from the 'all are equal' "wiki" model. :)

So thats just an abstraction of whats going on over there to help you guys out here to
understand the concepts of how "a wiki" (ie. a collaborative community) works. Ill pop
in on this list from time to time.

Steven

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From kawazu at zimmer428.net  Sun Jul  9 19:17:53 2006
From: kawazu at zimmer428.net (Kristian Rink)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 21:17:53 +0200
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Hello to the list...
Message-ID: <44B15661.7070609@zimmer428.net>

... just read about Campaigns-Wikia at some German news site and think
that this is a project worth participating. How to help best?

Cheers,
Kris







-- 
Kristian Rink *  http://zimmer428.net * jab: kawazu at jabber.ccc.de
icq: 48874445 *  fon: ++49 176 2447 2771
"Wenn einer allein tr?umt, ist es nur ein Traum. Wenn viele gemeinsam
tr?umen, ist das der Anfang einer neuen Wirklichkeit." (Hundertwasser)



From arikan at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 20:09:56 2006
From: arikan at gmail.com (Burak Arikan)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 16:09:56 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] political wiki in other languages?
Message-ID: <6e80f2710607091309g7215d3d9if70cd55dcb7ed065@mail.gmail.com>

Are we going to have political wiki in other languages? Not complete
translation of articles, but just as how regular wikipedia works. To
have a healthy political wiki, we need to have local issues
articulated by local participants.

burak


From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 20:16:13 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 13:16:13 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Hello to the list...
In-Reply-To: <44B15661.7070609@zimmer428.net>
References: <44B15661.7070609@zimmer428.net>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607091316o35da20bdoc4c3ad2d44feb19c@mail.gmail.com>

Well, what elections are coming up in Germany?

Chad


On 7/9/06, Kristian Rink <kawazu at zimmer428.net> wrote:
>
> ... just read about Campaigns-Wikia at some German news site and think
> that this is a project worth participating. How to help best?
>
> Cheers,
> Kris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Kristian Rink *  http://zimmer428.net * jab: kawazu at jabber.ccc.de
> icq: 48874445 *  fon: ++49 176 2447 2771
> "Wenn einer allein tr?umt, ist es nur ein Traum. Wenn viele gemeinsam
> tr?umen, ist das der Anfang einer neuen Wirklichkeit." (Hundertwasser)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From schwartz.rick at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  9 20:59:44 2006
From: schwartz.rick at yahoo.com (Rick Schwartz)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 13:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 21
In-Reply-To: <20060709084249.D164EB985AD@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>
Message-ID: <20060709205944.92010.qmail@web55012.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



I find this idea of having discusssions in e-mail very cumbersome - and I get way too many of them per day.  It is clogging my inbox.  I would love the idea of participating in some of these topics but it's just to clunky.

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From vertigosteve at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  9 21:13:09 2006
From: vertigosteve at yahoo.com (stevertigo)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 14:13:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 21
In-Reply-To: <20060709205944.92010.qmail@web55012.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060709211309.22676.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Rick Schwartz <schwartz.rick at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I find this idea of having discusssions in e-mail very cumbersome - and I get way too
> many of them per day.  It is clogging my inbox.  I would love the idea of
> participating in some of these topics but it's just to clunky.

Ditto. This is a big issue with CMS's.

Wiki is better for documents, and chat is too fast to be cohesive. There is something
inbetween, for example forum threads, within which there is a ton of variance.
Craigslist forums are interesting because they are well designed, though discussion
tends to be chatty. 

Ideally there would be a forum that 1) accepted email as an input, and 2) allowed
wiki-like document handling and migration. The idea would ideally be to allow all sorts
of input, keeping the originals, but augmented with a process for integration  and
summarization. 

Stevertigo 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From artie at artiefacts.com  Sun Jul  9 21:23:41 2006
From: artie at artiefacts.com (Artie)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 16:23:41 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: Campaigns-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 21
In-Reply-To: <20060709205944.92010.qmail@web55012.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <20060709205944.92010.qmail@web55012.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <44B173DD.10506@artiefacts.com>

Rick Schwartz wrote:

>
>
> I find this idea of having discusssions in e-mail very cumbersome - 
> and I get way too many of them per day.  It is clogging my inbox.

One good way to avoid a clogged inbox is to use a mail client with 
message filtering tools. I use the message filter tools in the Mozilla 
Thunderbird mail client to place all email from campaigns-l at wikia.com 
into a folder named "wikia." I do the same with other Yahoo groups I 
read. The mail never goes into my inbox at all. These filters can also 
send spam straigt to the trash and delete it from the POP servers. You 
can sort email into folders using subject, author, date or words 
contained in the message text.

On top of all this, Thunderbird is a truly threaded environment. You can 
see at glance who's responding to whom and the chronology as well. For 
any given level of message exchange, this is the least clunky method I'm 
aware of.

I have read that the forums in Mediawiki are threaded, but I haven't 
seen this kind of functionality.

Artie



From wikia at mein-parteibuch.de  Sun Jul  9 21:22:01 2006
From: wikia at mein-parteibuch.de (Marcel Bartels)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 23:22:01 +0200
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Hello to the list...
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607091316o35da20bdoc4c3ad2d44feb19c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44B15661.7070609@zimmer428.net>
	<801553ab0607091316o35da20bdoc4c3ad2d44feb19c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44B17379.6090802@mein-parteibuch.de>

Hi together, hi Chad, hallo Kristian,

> > Well, what elections are coming up in Germany?
 > Chad

We have got state elections in Berlin and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern as well
as communal elections in Berlin at 17.09.2006.

Gru?

Marcel
http://www.mein-parteibuch.de
-- 
Ich finde die Doris ihren Mann seine Partei so gut,
dass ich da gleich Mitglied geworden bin

Marcel Bartels
Ilsestr. 26
12051 Berlin

Tel: +49 (0)30 627 33 444
Fax: +49 (0)30 627 33 445
Mob: +49 (0)160 9104 6498


> 
> 
> On 7/9/06, Kristian Rink <kawazu at zimmer428.net> wrote:
>>
>> ... just read about Campaigns-Wikia at some German news site and think
>> that this is a project worth participating. How to help best?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Kristian Rink *  http://zimmer428.net * jab: kawazu at jabber.ccc.de
>> icq: 48874445 *  fon: ++49 176 2447 2771
>> "Wenn einer allein tr?umt, ist es nur ein Traum. Wenn viele gemeinsam
>> tr?umen, ist das der Anfang einer neuen Wirklichkeit." (Hundertwasser)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Campaigns-l mailing list
>> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l




From lucychili at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 22:11:50 2006
From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 07:41:50 +0930
Subject: [Campaigns-l] political wiki in other languages?
In-Reply-To: <6e80f2710607091309g7215d3d9if70cd55dcb7ed065@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e80f2710607091309g7215d3d9if70cd55dcb7ed065@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c9d7bc330607091511n3cfab6a6mf058a26c395e617f@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/06, Burak Arikan <arikan at gmail.com> wrote:
> Are we going to have political wiki in other languages? Not complete
> translation of articles, but just as how regular wikipedia works. To
> have a healthy political wiki, we need to have local issues
> articulated by local participants.
>
> burak

Yes. I wondered about this.
I guess it depends on what is chosen as a goal
and whether non English communities are into it.

I am into DMCA alternatives, it would be an international issue
and it really would only work if the conversations were accessible in
languages of people who were interested. ie The reason I'm here
looking into it is that it is an issue which can't be fixed at a local
level, it needs to be something that a lot of countries present with
the same thoughts.

I couldnt express complex thoughts in a second language so I'm not much help.
But for what its worth, there are people here who are interested in
speaking with people who are from non English nations about issues
which we may share interests.

Janet


From joe at daverin.com  Sun Jul  9 22:57:02 2006
From: joe at daverin.com (Joe Daverin)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 18:57:02 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] deletion
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607090757s4aa54926p333bc07cf5f26419@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44B0BCDB.8030506@daverin.com> <44B0C5BE.8040104@san.rr.com>
	<801553ab0607090757s4aa54926p333bc07cf5f26419@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44B189BE.3080803@daverin.com>

I moved the (minimal) content of the following pages to a single page, 
which I don't think will be big enough to justify multiple pages, at 
least not at first, so I thought the individual pages could go (they're 
not hurting anything, though)

Massachusetts State Attorney General
Massachusetts State Auditor
Massachusetts State Governor
Massachusetts State Lieutenant Governor
Massachusetts State Secretary of State
Massachusetts State Treasurer
Massachusetts State US House 5
Massachusetts State US Senate 1
Massachusetts State US Senate 2

The content on the pages was all put on either Massachusetts or 
Massachusetts Elections 2006.

Chad Lupkes wrote:

> Anyone can clear content, but only sysops can actually delete.  Which 
> pages?
>
> On 7/9/06, *Becky Blackham* <bblackham at san.rr.com 
> <mailto:bblackham at san.rr.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Joe,
>
>     I think you can delete the page by editing (deleting) the
>     content.  Our
>     Wikia didn't have this, but the main Wikia site did. Check this,
>
>     http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Deletion
>     and this
>     http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia:Candidates_for_speedy_deletion
>     <http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia:Candidates_for_speedy_deletion>
>
>     I looked at some random pages, looks like you really could just
>     wipe out
>     the text. I think then inserting the delete tag (you see in the second
>     link) into the edit box, and/or a simple signed request to delete,
>     left
>     in the  comments section for "Admin" would do it.
>
>     Becky
>
>     Joe Daverin wrote:
>     > hi,
>     >
>     > i think i got a little overzealous early on and created too many
>     > pages. i think some of these pages are pretty unnecessary, and i
>     was
>     > trying to figure out the policy for asking that they be deleted?
>     >
>     > thanks
>     > joe daverin
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Campaigns-l mailing list
>     > Campaigns-l at wikia.com <mailto:Campaigns-l at wikia.com>
>     > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>     >
>     >
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Campaigns-l mailing list
>     Campaigns-l at wikia.com <mailto:Campaigns-l at wikia.com>
>     http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Campaigns-l mailing list
>Campaigns-l at wikia.com
>http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>  
>



From nhprman at comcast.net  Sun Jul  9 22:57:45 2006
From: nhprman at comcast.net (Stephen Abbott)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 18:57:45 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Can I delete?
References: <44B0B6AE.23285.2563FBB@localhost>
Message-ID: <019b01c6a3ab$182b64f0$72ce3e18@Stephen>

...and Bill Clinton?

Frankly, I don't see the need for ANY of this purient garbage here.

Stephen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kathleen de la Pe?a McCook" <kmccook at tampabay.rr.com>
To: "Chad Lupkes" <chadlupkes at gmail.com>; <campaigns-l at wikia.com>;
<campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 7:56 AM
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Can I delete?


> Why delete? Randy Cunningham's full story may well include sex. Never
> forget Kim Philby, Bob Livingston,  Wilbur Mills, Henry Hyde, and
> many more.
>
> On 8 Jul 2006 at 22:43, Chad Lupkes wrote:
>
> >
> > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Sex
> > -- 
> > Chad Lupkes
> > Democracy for Washington
> > http://www.democracyforwashington.com
> > Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
> > http://pdcw.org
> Union Librarian
> http://unionlibrarian.blogspot.com/
> AFT Local 7463
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>




From michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 10 01:29:37 2006
From: michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com (Michael Reitz)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 18:29:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] delete me
Message-ID: <20060710012937.63718.qmail@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

I am  much too simple minded for this discussion, all about process and  nothing inspiring. We talk as the world burns. Please alow me to to touch people as I now wish to depart wikia.. 
   
  michaelcaspergeorge @yahoo.com

 		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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From chadlupkes at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 01:33:24 2006
From: chadlupkes at gmail.com (Chad Lupkes)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 18:33:24 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Hello to the list...
In-Reply-To: <44B17379.6090802@mein-parteibuch.de>
References: <44B15661.7070609@zimmer428.net>
	<801553ab0607091316o35da20bdoc4c3ad2d44feb19c@mail.gmail.com>
	<44B17379.6090802@mein-parteibuch.de>
Message-ID: <801553ab0607091833t7616d59bn8a93fa6bd30db216@mail.gmail.com>

Those sound exactly like what should go on the Wiki.  Are you supporting any
particular candidate?  Start an article with their name, and start building
the Germany section.  Others will follow up.

Chad


On 7/9/06, Marcel Bartels <wikia at mein-parteibuch.de> wrote:
>
> Hi together, hi Chad, hallo Kristian,
>
> > > Well, what elections are coming up in Germany?
> > Chad
>
> We have got state elections in Berlin and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern as well
> as communal elections in Berlin at 17.09.2006.
>
> Gru?
>
> Marcel
> http://www.mein-parteibuch.de
> --
> Ich finde die Doris ihren Mann seine Partei so gut,
> dass ich da gleich Mitglied geworden bin
>
> Marcel Bartels
> Ilsestr. 26
> 12051 Berlin
>
> Tel: +49 (0)30 627 33 444
> Fax: +49 (0)30 627 33 445
> Mob: +49 (0)160 9104 6498
>
>
> >
> >
> > On 7/9/06, Kristian Rink <kawazu at zimmer428.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> ... just read about Campaigns-Wikia at some German news site and think
> >> that this is a project worth participating. How to help best?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Kris
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Kristian Rink *  http://zimmer428.net * jab: kawazu at jabber.ccc.de
> >> icq: 48874445 *  fon: ++49 176 2447 2771
> >> "Wenn einer allein tr?umt, ist es nur ein Traum. Wenn viele gemeinsam
> >> tr?umen, ist das der Anfang einer neuen Wirklichkeit." (Hundertwasser)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Campaigns-l mailing list
> >> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From nhprman at comcast.net  Mon Jul 10 02:41:24 2006
From: nhprman at comcast.net (Stephen Abbott)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 22:41:24 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Needs a narrow focus on the Political Climate/New
	Politics
References: <20060710012937.63718.qmail@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <027401c6a3ca$564d8500$72ce3e18@Stephen>

I fear the ideal of allowing the maximum amount of freedom here (i.e. the least possible amount of guidance and direction) regarding format, mission and policy is creating some rather divergent views about what the Campaign Wikia is all about.

Creative chaos can create some interesting things, I admit. But it can also simply create simply ... chaos, a mind-numbing jumble of competing visions that leaves visitors scratching their heads in confusion (and perhaps anger) and wondering what the heck is supposed to be going on here.

The analogy I would give is if, at the founding of Wikipedia, instead of being specific, Jimbo had *not* spelled out that it's an encyclopedia. Instead, someone simply saw the space and said, "Hey, it's a chat board." another: "No, it's a social networking site." and another could have arrived beliving, "It's an experiment in creative anarchy," and then (to keep this analgy going) they had not been diasbused of carrying out these notions, all of which would have been at variance with one another on several important levels.

While the results are quite a bit different here from those hypotheticals, a lack of directions in the mission and failure to define parameters is creating some potentially damaging conclusions as to what the real mssion is here. (And I'm assuming, because I like to think positively, that this isn't the way it was planned.)

For example, the messages I'm seeing from the categories and articles being created are:

"This is the ELECTIONS wiki." - Categories in this scenario include "California United States Senate election, 2006" "Maine Gubernatorial election, 2006", etc., and a listing of every candidate in these races. While not far from the original intent, how does that contribute to a debate on a NEW approach to politics? Isn't it instead just a rehash of what several other very good sites already do? (including Wikipedia!!!)

"This is a REGIONAL ELECTIONS wiki" - "Dallas County, Texas" and "Irving, Texas" popped up today. That may lead us to a great listing of local elections, but does that get us to creating a NEW political climate? (Note: There are 254 counties in Texas, 67 in Florida, and over 10,000 local governments in the U.S. - do we get pages for all of them, and to what end?)

"This is the DEBATING wiki" - The idea?: "Let's list every issue in the world and debate it, pro and con." Again, close to the mission, but this, too, is fraught with danger and can lead (is leading already, really) to endless debates over *how* those issues are presented, both in their wording and format. The naming of the issues will become increasingly contentious. Minor scuffle over "tax relief" vs. "Taxation" already, but what about "Corrupt politicians" - the first attempt deleted, but hinting at what's to come.

In fact, each of these wikia are co-existing at the moment. Perhaps "co-habitating" is a better, less warm word, since I'm not sure they can exist happily as the name "exist" implies, for very long. 

Someone may say "Why can't the Wikia be ALL of these things - or whatever anyone *wants* it to be?" I'd answer: Because it would make this wikia totally useless, not to mention unnavigable.

I suggest some serious discussion about how we can narrow down the focus of the wikia to ONLY bettering electoral democracy - call it "New Politics" or "the Political Climate" or whatever you will. A VAST amount of "creative chaos" can be unleashed and harnesed in accomplishing that project alone, so this isn't a case of tying people down and stiffling them with too many rules.

But the *overall parameters* of how this project is set up need to be set up, and set SOON, so this project isn't turned into something ugly.

- Stephen A.
(Nhprman)
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From jwales at wikia.com  Mon Jul 10 02:45:00 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 21:45:00 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Needs a narrow focus on the Political Climate/New
	Politics
In-Reply-To: <027401c6a3ca$564d8500$72ce3e18@Stephen>
References: <20060710012937.63718.qmail@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<027401c6a3ca$564d8500$72ce3e18@Stephen>
Message-ID: <44B1BF2C.2090909@wikia.com>

I am listening. :)

Stephen Abbott wrote:
> I fear the ideal of allowing the maximum amount of freedom here (i.e.
> the least possible amount of guidance and direction) regarding format,
> mission and policy is creating some rather divergent views about what
> the Campaign Wikia is all about.
>  
> Creative chaos can create some interesting things, I admit. But it can
> also simply create simply ... chaos, a mind-numbing jumble of competing
> visions that leaves visitors scratching their heads in confusion (and
> perhaps anger) and wondering what the heck is supposed to be going on here.
>  
> The analogy I would give is if, at the founding of Wikipedia, instead of
> being specific, Jimbo had *not* spelled out that it's an encyclopedia.
> Instead, someone simply saw the space and said, "Hey, it's a chat
> board." another: "No, it's a social networking site." and another could
> have arrived beliving, "It's an experiment in creative anarchy," and
> then (to keep this analgy going) they had not been diasbused of carrying
> out these notions, all of which would have been at variance with one
> another on several important levels.
>  
> While the results are quite a bit different here from those
> hypotheticals, a lack of directions in the mission and failure to define
> parameters is creating some potentially damaging conclusions as to what
> the real mssion is here. (And I'm assuming, because I like to think
> positively, that this isn't the way it was planned.)
>  
> For example, the messages I'm seeing from the categories and articles
> being created are:
>  
> "This is the ELECTIONS wiki." - Categories in this scenario include
> "California United States Senate election, 2006" "Maine Gubernatorial
> election, 2006", etc., and a listing of every candidate in these
> races. While not far from the original intent, how does that contribute
> to a debate on a NEW approach to politics? Isn't it instead just a
> rehash of what several other very good sites already do? (including
> Wikipedia!!!)
>  
> "This is a REGIONAL ELECTIONS wiki" - "Dallas County, Texas" and
> "Irving, Texas" popped up today. That may lead us to a great listing of
> local elections, but does that get us to creating a NEW political
> climate? (Note: There are 254 counties in Texas, 67 in Florida, and over
> 10,000 local governments in the U.S. - do we get pages for all of them,
> and to what end?)
>  
> "This is the DEBATING wiki" - The idea?: "Let's list every issue in the
> world and debate it, pro and con." Again, close to the mission, but
> this, too, is fraught with danger and can lead (is leading already,
> really) to endless debates over *how* those issues are presented, both
> in their wording and format. The naming of the issues will become
> increasingly contentious. Minor scuffle over "tax relief" vs. "Taxation"
> already, but what about "Corrupt politicians" - the first attempt
> deleted, but hinting at what's to come.
>  
> In fact, each of these wikia are co-existing at the moment. Perhaps
> "co-habitating" is a better, less warm word, since I'm not sure they can
> exist happily as the name "exist" implies, for very long.
>  
> Someone may say "Why can't the Wikia be ALL of these things - or
> whatever anyone *wants* it to be?" I'd answer: Because it would make
> this wikia totally useless, not to mention unnavigable.
>  
> I suggest some serious discussion about how we can narrow down the focus
> of the wikia to ONLY bettering electoral democracy - call it "New
> Politics" or "the Political Climate" or whatever you will. A VAST amount
> of "creative chaos" can be unleashed and harnesed in accomplishing that
> project alone, so this isn't a case of tying people down and stiffling
> them with too many rules.
>  
> But the *overall parameters* of how this project is set up need to be
> set up, and set SOON, so this project isn't turned into something ugly.
>  
> - Stephen A.
> (Nhprman)
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l


-- 
#######################################################################
#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
#######################################################################
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From bblackham at san.rr.com  Mon Jul 10 02:45:35 2006
From: bblackham at san.rr.com (Becky Blackham)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 19:45:35 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Short sweet critique
In-Reply-To: <20060709154120.87912.qmail@web32207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060709154120.87912.qmail@web32207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <44B1BF4F.6010308@san.rr.com>

Dear Steve,

I hope you /do/ pop back in often, and even on the site itself (!?) 
though it sounds like you have your hands more than full if you are 
involved in any of the work load you describe going on at WP. 
Fascinating. I will definitely be around, here as well as the site. The 
non-virtual world interfered with my plans for today, unfortunately. I'd 
be pleased if you ever dropped me a note off list, if there was ever 
something related to our discussions but too OT for the list. :)

Becky

 
stevertigo wrote:
> --- Becky Blackham <bblackham at san.rr.com> wrote:
>   
>> Thank you so very much for the explanation of "trust 
>> metric" 
>>     
>
> :)
>
>   
>> The distinction between fact and intelligence, your definitions for 
>> each, are all very helpful. It seems the c-wiki (did you call it that?) 
>> we are using has the useful quality of being very efficiently revisable. 
>> There's both speed and ease of access to revise and the potential 
>> massively parallel collaboration to do as much work as required. 
>>     
>
> Thanks Becky, and youre more than welcome. Youre right about using wiki for a startup,
> and its good enough for most things for that purpose. To a large extent theres enough
> flexibility in the software to make it do whatever you want, as long as there is a core
> purpose to make it something other than just a "wiki." 
>
> Im still stuck thinking more in the Wikipedia dimension, as it has gotten busier than
> most people can even think about. But just taking a bellweather as an example, WP now
> has a huge backlog at WP:RQM - almost 1000 sysops and a backlog on requests for page
> moves! That speaks volumes to anyone who understands how important the balances are.
> The *functional standard for content over there isnt NPOV or encyclopedic value - its
> something like ''if its not vandalism' it's at least debatable and may stay, and if its
> true it will endure in substance, if not in the particular form it was written.''
>
> With all that data (some of it "facts") comes the need for increased intelligence on
> that data; for example WP:RC has long been useless for keeping up with things going on,
> and other tools like watchlists, spam and vandal fighting helpers, and a whole bunch of
> others have been developed. Some of these tools, as they are implemented by savvy
> people, could be said to deviate from the 'all are equal' "wiki" model. :)
>
> So thats just an abstraction of whats going on over there to help you guys out here to
> understand the concepts of how "a wiki" (ie. a collaborative community) works. Ill pop
> in on this list from time to time.
>
> Steven
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
>   



From nhprman at comcast.net  Mon Jul 10 02:47:29 2006
From: nhprman at comcast.net (Stephen Abbott)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 22:47:29 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Needs a narrow focus on the Political Climate/New
	Politics
References: <20060710012937.63718.qmail@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<027401c6a3ca$564d8500$72ce3e18@Stephen>
	<44B1BF2C.2090909@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <02b501c6a3cb$2faa0d00$72ce3e18@Stephen>

Great! What do you hear?

LOL ;-)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at wikia.com>
To: "Stephen Abbott" <nhprman at comcast.net>; <campaigns-l at wikia.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Needs a narrow focus on the Political Climate/New
Politics


> I am listening. :)
>
> Stephen Abbott wrote:
> > I fear the ideal of allowing the maximum amount of freedom here (i.e.
> > the least possible amount of guidance and direction) regarding format,
> > mission and policy is creating some rather divergent views about what
> > the Campaign Wikia is all about.
> >
> > Creative chaos can create some interesting things, I admit. But it can
> > also simply create simply ... chaos, a mind-numbing jumble of competing
> > visions that leaves visitors scratching their heads in confusion (and
> > perhaps anger) and wondering what the heck is supposed to be going on
here.
> >
> > The analogy I would give is if, at the founding of Wikipedia, instead of
> > being specific, Jimbo had *not* spelled out that it's an encyclopedia.
> > Instead, someone simply saw the space and said, "Hey, it's a chat
> > board." another: "No, it's a social networking site." and another could
> > have arrived beliving, "It's an experiment in creative anarchy," and
> > then (to keep this analgy going) they had not been diasbused of carrying
> > out these notions, all of which would have been at variance with one
> > another on several important levels.
> >
> > While the results are quite a bit different here from those
> > hypotheticals, a lack of directions in the mission and failure to define
> > parameters is creating some potentially damaging conclusions as to what
> > the real mssion is here. (And I'm assuming, because I like to think
> > positively, that this isn't the way it was planned.)
> >
> > For example, the messages I'm seeing from the categories and articles
> > being created are:
> >
> > "This is the ELECTIONS wiki." - Categories in this scenario include
> > "California United States Senate election, 2006" "Maine Gubernatorial
> > election, 2006", etc., and a listing of every candidate in these
> > races. While not far from the original intent, how does that contribute
> > to a debate on a NEW approach to politics? Isn't it instead just a
> > rehash of what several other very good sites already do? (including
> > Wikipedia!!!)
> >
> > "This is a REGIONAL ELECTIONS wiki" - "Dallas County, Texas" and
> > "Irving, Texas" popped up today. That may lead us to a great listing of
> > local elections, but does that get us to creating a NEW political
> > climate? (Note: There are 254 counties in Texas, 67 in Florida, and over
> > 10,000 local governments in the U.S. - do we get pages for all of them,
> > and to what end?)
> >
> > "This is the DEBATING wiki" - The idea?: "Let's list every issue in the
> > world and debate it, pro and con." Again, close to the mission, but
> > this, too, is fraught with danger and can lead (is leading already,
> > really) to endless debates over *how* those issues are presented, both
> > in their wording and format. The naming of the issues will become
> > increasingly contentious. Minor scuffle over "tax relief" vs. "Taxation"
> > already, but what about "Corrupt politicians" - the first attempt
> > deleted, but hinting at what's to come.
> >
> > In fact, each of these wikia are co-existing at the moment. Perhaps
> > "co-habitating" is a better, less warm word, since I'm not sure they can
> > exist happily as the name "exist" implies, for very long.
> >
> > Someone may say "Why can't the Wikia be ALL of these things - or
> > whatever anyone *wants* it to be?" I'd answer: Because it would make
> > this wikia totally useless, not to mention unnavigable.
> >
> > I suggest some serious discussion about how we can narrow down the focus
> > of the wikia to ONLY bettering electoral democracy - call it "New
> > Politics" or "the Political Climate" or whatever you will. A VAST amount
> > of "creative chaos" can be unleashed and harnesed in accomplishing that
> > project alone, so this isn't a case of tying people down and stiffling
> > them with too many rules.
> >
> > But the *overall parameters* of how this project is set up need to be
> > set up, and set SOON, so this project isn't turned into something ugly.
> >
> > - Stephen A.
> > (Nhprman)
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
>
> -- 
> #######################################################################
> #    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
> #    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
> #######################################################################
>




From jwales at wikia.com  Mon Jul 10 03:16:12 2006
From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 22:16:12 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] delete me
In-Reply-To: <20060710012937.63718.qmail@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <20060710012937.63718.qmail@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <44B1C67C.4060309@wikia.com>

Michael Reitz wrote:
> I am  much too simple minded for this discussion, all about process and
>  nothing inspiring. We talk as the world burns. Please alow me to to
> touch people as I now wish to depart wikia..

Well, I understand your frustration, but if we want to build something
different, we need to talk about process, and we need to start with some
boring grunt work.  I would expect that this site is going to be a lot
of fun for the first couple of years, and then a lot of fun plus
starting to have a major major impact after that.

First, we build a foundation.

--Jimbo
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From nhprman at comcast.net  Mon Jul 10 03:57:27 2006
From: nhprman at comcast.net (Stephen Abbott)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 23:57:27 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] delete me
References: <20060710012937.63718.qmail@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<44B1C67C.4060309@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <030a01c6a3d4$f8bc44c0$72ce3e18@Stephen>

Jimbo:
On the other hand, I can certainly sympathize with someone who may hear this
comment of yours and simply not buy into the program of wading through
literally millions of words in endless debates over the next few years to
determine the simple question: "So, dude, what's this wiki all about,
exactly?" That, at least, could be defined, and specifically.

It does seem like something that should be easy to spell out, rather than
letting the next 50,000 visitors figure out on their own (see my previous
comments for why that's not a good plan.)

I can't imagine a business opening its doors without at least a rudimentary
business plan defining WHO they are and WHAT they are in business to do. A
business owner who opened an empty storefront and asked whoever wanders in,
"What should we sell? Pizza? Mens clothes? Computers? Lawn mowers? And how
should we decorate the store?" would be seen as kind of crazy. Why is this
acceptable on the Internet?

Someone may be tempted at this point to say "but democracy is *messy*
sometimes." True. But as I said before, without some bare parameters, this
is an experiment in anarchy, not democracy. Wikipedia is specifically said
to be NOT an experiment in anarchy. Is this, too?

I don't say this to hurt you, or anyone who helped you put this together,
but the newly launched http://www.moreperfect.org seems eminently better
organized and has a clear mission, simple rules and, so far, a good
organizational scheme. It doesn't have the same mission, but is a model
worth following.

- Stephen A.
(This isn't "performance art" is it? Just grasping at straws, here.)



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at wikia.com>
To: <campaigns-l at wikia.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] delete me


> Michael Reitz wrote:
> > I am  much too simple minded for this discussion, all about process and
> >  nothing inspiring. We talk as the world burns. Please alow me to to
> > touch people as I now wish to depart wikia..
>
> Well, I understand your frustration, but if we want to build something
> different, we need to talk about process, and we need to start with some
> boring grunt work.  I would expect that this site is going to be a lot
> of fun for the first couple of years, and then a lot of fun plus
> starting to have a major major impact after that.
>
> First, we build a foundation.
>
> --Jimbo
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----


> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>




From neoclassical at mail.com  Mon Jul 10 04:11:36 2006
From: neoclassical at mail.com (neoclassical at mail.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 23:11:36 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Greetings all
Message-ID: <20060710041136.B60FF164278@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>


Greetings all,

Humanity faces a tough struggle and politics will decide it. Climate change, overpopulation, lack of values. I hope to exchange ideas with both those who agree and are repelled by my beliefs.

I find the best statement of overall political activism on the net to be right here:

http://www.nazi.org/nazi/policy/introduction/

At the Libertarian National Socialist Green party. I'm a fan of Kaczynski and Linkola, if anyone knows those :)




-- 
___________________________________________________
Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/



From neoclassical at mail.com  Mon Jul 10 04:21:48 2006
From: neoclassical at mail.com (neoclassical at mail.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 23:21:48 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Can I delete?
Message-ID: <20060710042148.24598164278@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>


> Frankly, I don't see the need for ANY of this purient garbage here.

"I don't see" is not a logical argument.



-- 
___________________________________________________
Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/



From neoclassical at mail.com  Mon Jul 10 04:23:59 2006
From: neoclassical at mail.com (neoclassical at mail.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 23:23:59 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Needs a narrow focus on the Political Climate/New
	Politics
Message-ID: <20060710042359.37F57164278@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>


> I suggest some serious discussion about how we can narrow down the 
> focus of the wikia to ONLY bettering electoral democracy - call it 
> "New Politics" or "the Political Climate" or whatever you will. A 
> VAST amount of "creative chaos" can be unleashed and harnesed in 
> accomplishing that project alone, so this isn't a case of tying 
> people down and stiffling them with too many rules.

How about just bettering our political situation? Not everyone agrees that democracy is even a good idea (in fact, there's plenty of historical evidence to suggest it's a terrible one). Third world peoples and those who do not approve of democracy, outnumbered, generally resort to terrorism simply to survive; why not give them a voice? I mean, wouldn't it be cool if both al-Qaeda and the Republican Party were represented on Campaign Wiki?


-- 
___________________________________________________
Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/



From mboverload at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 05:52:18 2006
From: mboverload at gmail.com (mboverload)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 22:52:18 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Needs a narrow focus on the Political Climate/New
	Politics
In-Reply-To: <20060710042359.37F57164278@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20060710042359.37F57164278@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <482df7800607092252ke469ac0o586c581798e14fc2@mail.gmail.com>

"OMG THE REPUBLICANS USE CABALS AND TEH TERRORISTS PAGE BLANK OMG" - Future
user

On 7/9/06, neoclassical at mail.com <neoclassical at mail.com> wrote:
>
>  I mean, wouldn't it be cool if both al-Qaeda and the Republican Party
> were represented on Campaign Wiki?
>
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From beesley at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 06:26:54 2006
From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 16:26:54 +1000
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: undigestable
In-Reply-To: <e9f65a510607091958s6473e691x2bc3614d19808734@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e9f65a510607091958s6473e691x2bc3614d19808734@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8b722b800607092326l15f48290xa1e69d77cf3438b1@mail.gmail.com>

> Although this project interests me greatly, I can no longer have 5+ emails
> arrive from you guys every day. It is a little absurd.
>
> I suggest you limit it to one digest per day. Until you announce that this
> is done, I am going to unsubscribe.

In light of this and other recent complaints, I'm going to put the
digest limit up to 99999kb (the default is 30kb and I'd already raised
it to 100kb a couple of days ago). It will still send one email a day
if it doesn't reach that limit. If it does reach that limit, even I'm
quitting! :)

You can switch to digest view and receive all mails in one by changing
your options at http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l

I'd appreciate feedback on whether this is too large and whether some
type of posting restrictions should be used. For those unhappy with
the mailing list, I suggest you check out the on-wiki forums at
http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Index as an alternative means of
communication.

I hope this helps.

Angela.

--
Angela Beesley
Wikia.com


From memcbride at neo.rr.com  Mon Jul 10 08:48:09 2006
From: memcbride at neo.rr.com (Maureen Ellen Mc Bride)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 04:48:09 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Political Solutions Wicki 
Message-ID: <44B21449.7000404@neo.rr.com>

The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of 
thinking we were at when we created them.
- Albert Einstein

I've always loved that quote. As I read the email contributions of the 
group, it occurs to me that we might benefit from taking a step back 
from where we are to where we are headed.

I have a complete compassion for the notion that free expression is the 
foundation of
real democracy in action. What happens in public forum and public debate 
that makes it
tiresome is that ideas are expressed as points of view that are to be 
proved or denied by
others. Right/wrong good/bad left/right sound bite dichotomies.

What if? What if, this political campaigns wicki followed a format that 
created a higher level of discussion by inviting participants using the 
following three step process.

A)Define the problem to be solved

B) Define their view of the solution

C) Relate the candidate's platform to the problem, the solution and the 
candidates actions in the past.

Leave the ridiculous to the mass media, as they are the professionals 
when it comes to all things
mundane and superficial. I would suggest if we are to support political 
activism by the greater populace, designing a forum that requires the 
participants to think in terms of solutions, choices and actions, over 
debate ad nauseum,
we quantum leap the reactive and provide for the proactive.
Freedom is not license, it is an opportunity to be response-able.
Maureen






From wikia at mein-parteibuch.de  Mon Jul 10 08:48:58 2006
From: wikia at mein-parteibuch.de (Marcel Bartels)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:48:58 +0200
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Berlin elections 2006 in wikia
In-Reply-To: <801553ab0607091833t7616d59bn8a93fa6bd30db216@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44B15661.7070609@zimmer428.net>	<801553ab0607091316o35da20bdoc4c3ad2d44feb19c@mail.gmail.com>	<44B17379.6090802@mein-parteibuch.de>
	<801553ab0607091833t7616d59bn8a93fa6bd30db216@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44B2147A.2020207@mein-parteibuch.de>

Hello together,

Chad Lupkes wrote:
> Those sound exactly like what should go on the Wiki.  
I think so, too. Though, the pre-elections inside the parties are
already done and the public elections probably won't bring many
surprises any more.

> Are you supporting any particular candidate?
I am member of a political party, but not supporter of a specific
candidate. To discuss about candidates instead of discussing political
programs I would see as a big step backwards in culture of German democracy.

> Start an article with their name, and start building
> the Germany section.  
I put in an article on Berlin elections in wikia:

http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Berliner_Wahlen_2006

> Others will follow up.
Let's see, if somebody is able to take up the beginning I made and
continues it.

> 
> Chad
> 
> 
> On 7/9/06, Marcel Bartels <wikia at mein-parteibuch.de> wrote:
>>
>> Hi together, hi Chad, hallo Kristian,
>>
>> > > Well, what elections are coming up in Germany?
>> > Chad
>>
>> We have got state elections in Berlin and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern as well
>> as communal elections in Berlin at 17.09.2006.
>>
>> Gru?
>>
>> Marcel
>> http://www.mein-parteibuch.de

Gru?

Marcel
http://www.mein-parteibuch.de
-- 
Ich finde die Doris ihren Mann seine Partei so gut,
dass ich da gleich Mitglied geworden bin

Marcel Bartels
Ilsestr. 26
12051 Berlin

Tel: +49 (0)30 627 33 444
Fax: +49 (0)30 627 33 445
Mob: +49 (0)160 9104 6498


From m.e.ludwig at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 10:26:06 2006
From: m.e.ludwig at gmail.com (Michael Ludwig)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:26:06 +0200
Subject: [Campaigns-l] political architecture, participatory politics
In-Reply-To: <44B085CA.9020009@awry.ws>
References: <44B085CA.9020009@awry.ws>
Message-ID: <580d86da0607100326x4ca02a61g39ff7a907812ed59@mail.gmail.com>

I agree wholeheartedly with the 'architectural' leanings of your post, C. I
wish here to make a practical suggestion as to how that architecture could
look.

Could a 'new politics' reverse the actual voting power and have the people
vote on issues rather than let politicians tell us during their campaign how
they stand on general issues, only then vote however they wish to for the
next few years in office? To make something like that work within our
current system, i would suggest the following additional architecture to a
Wikia:

Wikia could have sections for different communities (local, state and
federal for the US) where the actual legislative matters being discussed in
the local 'congresses' are posted so that wikia members can go and cast a
virtual yea/nay vote to give politicians an idea of exactly what 'we' think
about given issues.

Politicians could even commit to always vote according to wikia voting
results and thereby court the wikia vote, effectively turning themselves
into electors, ie real-time representatives.

i know this might not help to clarify the issues at hand, but it certainly
would clarify our position on them. Call it wikia ultra-democracy.

Michael

On 7/9/06, Chris Haumesser <ch at awry.ws> wrote:
>
> I welcome the use of Internet tools as a catalyst for political reform.
> Hats off to you, Mr. Wales, for kicking us off (albeit rather blindly).
>
> I've been impressed with many of the ideas I've seen represented in the
> list traffic.  I hope that this endeavor will evolve into an open
> alternative to the policy "think tanks" that operate largely in opaque
> partisanship today.
>
> I have two further thoughts to throw into the ring.
>
> 1.  As Mitch Kapor says, "Politics is Architecture"
> <http://blog.kapor.com/?p=29>.
>
> I firmly agree with Mitch that meaningful reform will not happen in
> government until its outdated architecture changes considerably, or is
> replaced entirely.
>
> To paraphrase Buckminster Fuller, struggling against the existing
> paradigm can be futile; radical change comes about with a new, more
> compelling paradigm that renders the existing model obsolete.
>
> What will be the features of this new paradigm?  What have we learned
> from 230 years of democracy in America that we can apply in designing a
> new, more compelling paradigm of participatory, open democracy?
>
> I think an open design process for such a new political architecture is
> essential to the efforts of reform.
>
>
> 2.  A lot people in my circle agree that big media is a primary culprit
> in our current political quagmire.  It occurred to me last night that
> politics is just another random bit of information that flashes past my
> eyes on the LCD every day (or worse, for most Americans, on the TV).
> Politics has simply become part of the information diet we are fed,
> nothing more, nothing less.
>
> I personally cannot recall any political representative or candidate, at
> any level of government, *ever* soliciting my opinion or feedback on a
> single issue.  There is no accountability to constituents in the current
> system, and that has to change.
>
> No wonder people feel that politics is irrelevant in their lives!
>
> My personal view is that mainstream politicians hide behind the media,
> including the Internet.  We need to push them back out into the
> communities, to engage with the electorate and revive genuine political
> discourse.
>
> But we, the people, can take back the political discourse too, with the
> will and the right tools.
>
> Thus, I also believe that an important feature of the political
> wikiscape should include real, practical information on how to organize
> grassroots campaigns, break through to people on a local level, and
> bring about change from the bottom up.  There are plenty of angry and
> disenfranchised people in this country right now who would jump at an
> opportunity to change things... if only they knew where to start, or
> what to do, or how to go about doing it.  Harnessing this unrest could
> prove a tremendous asset.
>
>
> If you've made it this far, thanks for reading.  I look forward to
> following the progress of this intriguing new Pandora's box Mr. Wales
> has unhinged.
>
>
> -C-
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From kmccook at tampabay.rr.com  Mon Jul 10 11:52:09 2006
From: kmccook at tampabay.rr.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kathleen_de_la_Pe=F1a_McCook?=)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 07:52:09 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] prurient garbage
In-Reply-To: <20060710042148.24598164278@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <44B20729.25286.4847E60@localhost>

I don't see how one can determine that a central component of 
humanity--sexuality--is prurient garbage. Clinton's impeachment was 
largely focused on his sexuality; Robert Livingstone could not serve 
as Speaker because of his sexuality; etc. etc. 
  

On 9 Jul 2006 at 23:21, neoclassical at mail.com wrote:

> 
> > Frankly, I don't see the need for ANY of this purient garbage here.
> 
> "I don't see" is not a logical argument.
> 


From michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 10 12:20:08 2006
From: michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com (Michael Reitz)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 05:20:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Re: undigestable
In-Reply-To: <8b722b800607092326l15f48290xa1e69d77cf3438b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060710122008.26357.qmail@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

I FULLY AGREE...It is chaotic and without concensus on the process much less having any insight on the issues  which plague life on this earth....Michael

Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:  > Although this project interests me greatly, I can no longer have 5+ emails
> arrive from you guys every day. It is a little absurd.
>
> I suggest you limit it to one digest per day. Until you announce that this
> is done, I am going to unsubscribe.

In light of this and other recent complaints, I'm going to put the
digest limit up to 99999kb (the default is 30kb and I'd already raised
it to 100kb a couple of days ago). It will still send one email a day
if it doesn't reach that limit. If it does reach that limit, even I'm
quitting! :)

You can switch to digest view and receive all mails in one by changing
your options at http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l

I'd appreciate feedback on whether this is too large and whether some
type of posting restrictions should be used. For those unhappy with
the mailing list, I suggest you check out the on-wiki forums at
http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Index as an alternative means of
communication.

I hope this helps.

Angela.

--
Angela Beesley
Wikia.com
_______________________________________________
Campaigns-l mailing list
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From michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 10 12:29:06 2006
From: michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com (Michael Reitz)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 05:29:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Needs a narrow focus on the Political Climate/New
	Politics
In-Reply-To: <027401c6a3ca$564d8500$72ce3e18@Stephen>
Message-ID: <20060710122906.58102.qmail@web55309.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

I fully agree! Someone must take charge and give us some structure...Michael

Stephen Abbott <nhprman at comcast.net> wrote:          I fear the ideal of allowing the maximum amount of freedom here (i.e. the least possible amount of guidance and direction) regarding format, mission and policy is creating some rather divergent views about what the Campaign Wikia is all about.
   
  Creative chaos can create some interesting things, I admit. But it can also simply create simply ... chaos, a mind-numbing jumble of competing visions that leaves visitors scratching their heads in confusion (and perhaps anger) and wondering what the heck is supposed to be going on here.
   
  The analogy I would give is if, at the founding of Wikipedia, instead of being specific, Jimbo had *not* spelled out that it's an encyclopedia. Instead, someone simply saw the space and said, "Hey, it's a chat board." another: "No, it's a social networking site." and another could have arrived beliving, "It's an experiment in creative anarchy," and then (to keep this analgy going) they had not been diasbused of carrying out these notions, all of which would have been at variance with one another on several important levels.
   
  While the results are quite a bit different here from those hypotheticals, a lack of directions in the mission and failure to define parameters is creating some potentially damaging conclusions as to what the real mssion is here. (And I'm assuming, because I like to think positively, that this isn't the way it was planned.)
   
  For example, the messages I'm seeing from the categories and articles being created are:
   
  "This is the ELECTIONS wiki." - Categories in this scenario include "California United States Senate election, 2006" "Maine Gubernatorial election, 2006", etc., and a listing of every candidate in these races. While not far from the original intent, how does that contribute to a debate on a NEW approach to politics? Isn't it instead just a rehash of what several other very good sites already do? (including Wikipedia!!!)
   
  "This is a REGIONAL ELECTIONS wiki" - "Dallas County, Texas" and "Irving, Texas" popped up today. That may lead us to a great listing of local elections, but does that get us to creating a NEW political climate? (Note: There are 254 counties in Texas, 67 in Florida, and over 10,000 local governments in the U.S. - do we get pages for all of them, and to what end?)
   
  "This is the DEBATING wiki" - The idea?: "Let's list every issue in the world and debate it, pro and con." Again, close to the mission, but this, too, is fraught with danger and can lead (is leading already, really) to endless debates over *how* those issues are presented, both in their wording and format. The naming of the issues will become increasingly contentious. Minor scuffle over "tax relief" vs. "Taxation" already, but what about "Corrupt politicians" - the first attempt deleted, but hinting at what's to come.
   
  In fact, each of these wikia are co-existing at the moment. Perhaps "co-habitating" is a better, less warm word, since I'm not sure they can exist happily as the name "exist" implies, for very long. 
   
  Someone may say "Why can't the Wikia be ALL of these things - or whatever anyone *wants* it to be?" I'd answer: Because it would make this wikia totally useless, not to mention unnavigable.
   
  I suggest some serious discussion about how we can narrow down the focus of the wikia to ONLY bettering electoral democracy - call it "New Politics" or "the Political Climate" or whatever you will. A VAST amount of "creative chaos" can be unleashed and harnesed in accomplishing that project alone, so this isn't a case of tying people down and stiffling them with too many rules.
   
  But the *overall parameters* of how this project is set up need to be set up, and set SOON, so this project isn't turned into something ugly.
   
  - Stephen A.
  (Nhprman)
_______________________________________________
Campaigns-l mailing list
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From lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 13:35:14 2006
From: lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com (Lord Voldemort)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 09:35:14 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Needs a narrow focus on the Political Climate/New
	Politics
In-Reply-To: <20060710042359.37F57164278@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20060710042359.37F57164278@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <aa62d5b70607100635i3a4fd452t36377c54c48de2e1@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/06, neoclassical at mail.com <neoclassical at mail.com> wrote:
Third world peoples and those who do not approve of democracy,
outnumbered, generally resort to terrorism simply to survive; why not
give them a voice?


Yikes... possibly the most nonsensical statement to appear on this
list yet.  "resort to terrorism simply to survive"?  Yeah blowing
yourself up in a tube station is a great way to survive. Bombing
wedding parties is another spectacular way to survive.  "Those damn
weddings always getting all up in my business trying to snuff me out.
I know! I'll blow it up!  Then I can survive!!!"

But realistically, if an al-Qaeda page was made that would be fine.  I
don't really know if they run campaigns, but hey, maybe they need new
leadership. ;-)

--LV


From lucychili at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 14:17:57 2006
From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 23:47:57 +0930
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Needs a narrow focus on the Political Climate/New
	Politics
In-Reply-To: <aa62d5b70607100635i3a4fd452t36377c54c48de2e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060710042359.37F57164278@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
	<aa62d5b70607100635i3a4fd452t36377c54c48de2e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c9d7bc330607100717w74832e33iba489b59e2b694fe@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/06, Lord Voldemort <lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com> wrote:

> But realistically, if an al-Qaeda page was made that would be fine.  I
> don't really know if they run campaigns, but hey, maybe they need new
> leadership. ;-)

If so they wouldnt be alone in that or we wouldnt be here.
I certainly wouldnt claim any moral highground on behalf of my government.
I am here to learn about other views and most especially those which
dont have right of way in the normal run of things although doing that
in english online has already a lot of blindspots.

For my part I've found an organisation working on alternative policy to the DMCA
and Ive subscribed. http://www.cptech.org/a2k/
For others who were interested.

The issue for me now is that I know there are wiser souls than me
doing the development of open copyright legislation in a well
organised way and I'm wondering what kind of project could be still
useful to do on a community wiki.

Perhaps a set of creative commons business models, I'm back to the
drawing board, but thats ok, I'll go back to my person page and have a
think about what i want to do and document that there.

If we all do that and research our proposed projects and document that
in our personal pages, providing links to relevant material it might
help us to understand whether our project is (like mine) already in
hand, or whether there is something specific/new/transformative about
the kind of thing we want to be doing here.
Then we can cruise through the people list and start conversations and
look at what each other are trying.

I think given the broad scope of people here it will probably be
easiest to move forward if people initiate smaller projects.
Undertaking things as they feel it will best achieve changes in
democracy.
Perhaps after a month people could have a look at the range of things
and talk about joining content into fewer wikis with more people who
are thinking similarly recognising that in each others' work. We can
offer links to material we think is relevant to each other etc.

The main wiki could be the index of political wikis, and the common
room where our profiles are.

I think there may end up being two or three major types of projects
But regional needs and projects could get swamped in a one true wiki.

ie lets have a go. We are all here because we care about something
enough to want to get through this and because we feel a shared space
has something to offer. Lets start with examining what we want
ourselves, researching it
and then either making a sandpit proof of concept and seeing what it feels like
or talking to others about their sandpits and how we can help.

Cheers  Janet


From lise at lisequinn.net  Mon Jul 10 14:35:26 2006
From: lise at lisequinn.net (Lise L. Quinn)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 07:35:26 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Needs a narrow focus on the Political
	Climate/NewPolitics
In-Reply-To: <aa62d5b70607100635i3a4fd452t36377c54c48de2e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a101c6a42e$15ede180$6800a8c0@atalanta>

It's because of attitudes like this that I think this should be limited to
American politics. Haven't we as American interfered with the rest of the
world enough. Let's get our own political house in order before we tell
others how to do it. 


Lis? 
("Don't worry about the world coming to an end today, It's already tomorrow
in Australia"  ~ Charles Schultz)

-----Original Message-----
From: campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com [mailto:campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com]
On Behalf Of Lord Voldemort
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 6:35 AM
To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
Subject: Re: [Campaigns-l] Needs a narrow focus on the Political
Climate/NewPolitics

On 7/10/06, neoclassical at mail.com <neoclassical at mail.com> wrote:
Third world peoples and those who do not approve of democracy, outnumbered,
generally resort to terrorism simply to survive; why not give them a voice?


Yikes... possibly the most nonsensical statement to appear on this list yet.
"resort to terrorism simply to survive"?  Yeah blowing yourself up in a tube
station is a great way to survive. Bombing wedding parties is another
spectacular way to survive.  "Those damn weddings always getting all up in
my business trying to snuff me out.
I know! I'll blow it up!  Then I can survive!!!"

But realistically, if an al-Qaeda page was made that would be fine.  I don't
really know if they run campaigns, but hey, maybe they need new leadership.
;-)

--LV
_______________________________________________
Campaigns-l mailing list
Campaigns-l at wikia.com
http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l





From lise at lisequinn.net  Mon Jul 10 14:40:04 2006
From: lise at lisequinn.net (Lise L. Quinn)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 07:40:04 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Greetings all
In-Reply-To: <20060710041136.B60FF164278@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <00a201c6a42e$bbefe5b0$6800a8c0@atalanta>

OK, and you?re a fan of a terrorist - home grown yet, well this is not a
place nor people I want to be associated with. 

Lis?
("Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."~ Issac Asimov)



-----Original Message-----
From: campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com [mailto:campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com]
On Behalf Of neoclassical at mail.com
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 9:12 PM
To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Greetings all


Greetings all,

Humanity faces a tough struggle and politics will decide it. Climate change,
overpopulation, lack of values. I hope to exchange ideas with both those who
agree and are repelled by my beliefs.

I find the best statement of overall political activism on the net to be
right here:

http://www.nazi.org/nazi/policy/introduction/

At the Libertarian National Socialist Green party. I'm a fan of Kaczynski
and Linkola, if anyone knows those :)




--
___________________________________________________
Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/

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From lucychili at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 15:05:27 2006
From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 00:35:27 +0930
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Needs a narrow focus on the Political
	Climate/NewPolitics
In-Reply-To: <00a101c6a42e$15ede180$6800a8c0@atalanta>
References: <aa62d5b70607100635i3a4fd452t36377c54c48de2e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a101c6a42e$15ede180$6800a8c0@atalanta>
Message-ID: <c9d7bc330607100805q2df1b1b3m9941fd2986791e08@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/11/06, Lise L. Quinn <lise at lisequinn.net> wrote:
> It's because of attitudes like this that I think this should be limited to
> American politics. Haven't we as American interfered with the rest of the
> world enough. Let's get our own political house in order before we tell
> others how to do it.
>
>
> Lis?
> ("Don't worry about the world coming to an end today, It's already tomorrow
> in Australia"  ~ Charles Schultz)

As you wish.
I am not an American


From nhprman at comcast.net  Mon Jul 10 15:49:36 2006
From: nhprman at comcast.net (Stephen Abbott)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:49:36 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] prurient garbage
References: <44B20729.25286.4847E60@localhost>
Message-ID: <00d101c6a438$74e58300$72ce3e18@Stephen>

I don't believe the level and tenor of discourse associated with both of the
names mentioned here, and others mentioned earlier, are indicative of the
"new politics" and intillegent tone Jimbo was aiming for here.

Let's keep politicians' sex lives out of this wikia. Or not. Whatever.
Apparently, there are no limits, rules or guidelines, so "anything goes."

We'll see how that works out. I suspect, however, we'll end up with exactly
what we see on the partisan blogs.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kathleen de la Pe?a McCook" <kmccook at tampabay.rr.com>
To: <neoclassical at mail.com>; <campaigns-l at wikia.com>;
<campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com>
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 7:52 AM
Subject: [Campaigns-l] prurient garbage


> I don't see how one can determine that a central component of
> humanity--sexuality--is prurient garbage. Clinton's impeachment was
> largely focused on his sexuality; Robert Livingstone could not serve
> as Speaker because of his sexuality; etc. etc.
>
>
> On 9 Jul 2006 at 23:21, neoclassical at mail.com wrote:
>
> >
> > > Frankly, I don't see the need for ANY of this purient garbage here.
> >
> > "I don't see" is not a logical argument.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>




From michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 10 17:00:32 2006
From: michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com (Michael Reitz)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:00:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] delete me from this mail please
Message-ID: <20060710170032.19545.qmail@web55312.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

delete me from this mail, please
 		
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From michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 10 17:00:24 2006
From: michaelcaspergeorge at yahoo.com (Michael Reitz)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:00:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Campaigns-l] delete me from this mail please
Message-ID: <20060710170024.48559.qmail@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

delete me from this mail, please
 		
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From asa at caltech.edu  Mon Jul 10 16:55:30 2006
From: asa at caltech.edu (Asa Hopkins)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 09:55:30 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] changing politics
Message-ID: <B512FB5A-94D0-4CD8-9FDD-DB94DAC29F9A@caltech.edu>

Hey folks,

I just wanted to jump in and second some thoughts from Stephen Abbott  
and Erik Mueller which I think get at the heart of what Jimmy Wales'  
open letter indicated the site would be about, but which the content  
so far doesn't reflect at all: "a central meeting ground for people  
on all sides of the political spectrum who think that it is time for  
politics to become more participatory, and more intelligent."

To me, this doesn't mean "a place to discuss a particular race" or  
even "a place to post info about candidates" or even "a place for  
background info about issues."  All these things are available  
elsewhere, and making the info available in a central place doesn't  
change the game at all.

What I was hoping for was a place to work on how to change the way  
that campaigns are run, the way the game is played.  Questions I'd  
like to see discussed are along these lines:
-- How does one run a campaign to represent hundreds of thousands, if  
not millions, of people, and still maintain a connection to each  
individual voter, or ever each individual volunteer or donor?
-- I'm a single supporter, and I have a great idea for a policy  
position I'd like my candidate or elected official to take.  How can  
the campaign make it easy for that communication to happen, and that  
idea get serious consideration?  This is what participatory politics  
means to me.
-- In each electoral district across the country there are experts on  
each of the policy issues that an elected official makes decisions  
about.  How can we set up the system so that our representatives  
easily tap this knowledge in order to make more intelligent decisions?

Unfortunately, the front page of the Campaigns Wikia site is set up  
as an issues discussion, and a discussion of upcoming elections.   
This is exactly what we don't need yet another site to do.

Asa

-----------------
Work is love made visible
-----------------
Asa S. Hopkins
MC 266-33, Pasadena, CA 91125
asa at caltech.edu
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~asa/
-----------------


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From sponagl at 7val.com  Mon Jul 10 17:06:42 2006
From: sponagl at 7val.com (Paul Sponagl)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 19:06:42 +0200
Subject: [Campaigns-l] easy, but not too easy...
Message-ID: <20060710171326.9F387B984F1@shannon.tpa.wikia-inc.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

in 2002 the concept of an "online election descision helper" (Wahl-o-Mat)
was succesfully established by the bpd in germany. 

http://www.bpb.de/methodik/AN79O6,0,0,Making_of_WahlOMat.html. 

in my opinion two goals of this political guidance and formation of opinion
are simple to understand and might help during the evolvement of campaigns
at wikia.

- - show the distinguishable and important position of parties
- - attract teenagers attention for politics

best,
Paul





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From silona at LeagueofTechVoters.org  Mon Jul 10 17:21:03 2006
From: silona at LeagueofTechVoters.org (Silona Bonewald)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:21:03 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Can I delete?
In-Reply-To: <44B0B6AE.23285.2563FBB@localhost>
References: <44B0B6AE.23285.2563FBB@localhost>
Message-ID: <44B28C7F.208@LeagueofTechVoters.org>

My government class in college called "American presidents"  had a fair 
amount of sex in it.  One aspect that was often talked about is the 
personality types of most politicians and how sex played into it and 
some of their decisions.

my two cents,
Silona

Kathleen de la Pe?a McCook wrote:
> Why delete? Randy Cunningham's full story may well include sex. Never 
> forget Kim Philby, Bob Livingston,  Wilbur Mills, Henry Hyde, and 
> many more.
>   


From joe at daverin.com  Mon Jul 10 17:37:45 2006
From: joe at daverin.com (Joe Daverin)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:37:45 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] changing politics
In-Reply-To: <B512FB5A-94D0-4CD8-9FDD-DB94DAC29F9A@caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <B17DCE20A3@64.119.142.83>

I totally agree with this, except that I'm not quite so frustrated as some
of you guys sound with the thing so far. To get anything truly new going
will take time. As I've been futzing around on the wiki, I've come to the
same kinds of conclusions that have been voiced here. Specifically, that
discussions about specific races are probably going to be too quiet or too
loud, that candidate information is widely available elsewhere, and that
there's only 6.5 million (approx) forums to discuss political issues.
 
I like the middle question mentioned here. What is "participatory politics"
to everyone? To me it is still vague, but I think of accessibility to the
inside of campaigns. I guess if I were to make up a buzzword-laced
meaningless tagline I would say that a non-participatory campaign works to
influence people while a participatory campaign works to involve people.
 
But yes, I totally agree that what has been done is not all that new or
interesting, and continuing to do more of the same will continue to not be
new or interesting. I also think that most of the people here are smart
enough to come to that conclusion as they survey the campaigns wiki
landscape, and I'm sure that people will start thinking about these same
questions pretty soon... perhaps they should be made wiki topics for those
who were turned off by the initial volume of the email list?
 
Joe D

  _____  

From: campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com [mailto:campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com]
On Behalf Of Asa Hopkins
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 12:56 PM
To: campaigns-l at wikia.com
Subject: [Campaigns-l] changing politics


Hey folks, 

I just wanted to jump in and second some thoughts from Stephen Abbott and
Erik Mueller which I think get at the heart of what Jimmy Wales' open letter
indicated the site would be about, but which the content so far doesn't
reflect at all: "a central meeting ground for people on all sides of the
political spectrum who think that it is time for politics to become more
participatory, and more intelligent."


To me, this doesn't mean "a place to discuss a particular race" or even "a
place to post info about candidates" or even "a place for background info
about issues." All these things are available elsewhere, and making the info
available in a central place doesn't change the game at all. 

What I was hoping for was a place to work on how to change the way that
campaigns are run, the way the game is played. Questions I'd like to see
discussed are along these lines: 
-- How does one run a campaign to represent hundreds of thousands, if not
millions, of people, and still maintain a connection to each individual
voter, or ever each individual volunteer or donor?
-- I'm a single supporter, and I have a great idea for a policy position I'd
like my candidate or elected official to take. How can the campaign make it
easy for that communication to happen, and that idea get serious
consideration? This is what participatory politics means to me.
-- In each electoral district across the country there are experts on each
of the policy issues that an elected official makes decisions about. How can
we set up the system so that our representatives easily tap this knowledge
in order to make more intelligent decisions?

Unfortunately, the front page of the Campaigns Wikia site is set up as an
issues discussion, and a discussion of upcoming elections. This is exactly
what we don't need yet another site to do.

Asa

-----------------
Work is love made visible
-----------------
Asa S. Hopkins
MC 266-33, Pasadena, CA 91125
asa at caltech.edu
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~asa/
-----------------


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From ed.rodgers at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 17:39:36 2006
From: ed.rodgers at gmail.com (Ed Rodgers)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:39:36 -0400
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Can I delete?
In-Reply-To: <44B0B6AE.23285.2563FBB@localhost>
References: <801553ab0607082243h36248636ia30ee0ce0237e0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44B0B6AE.23285.2563FBB@localhost>
Message-ID: <e23444c80607101039p7d2fec9s5b453eaa575bdbab@mail.gmail.com>

clarence thomas.

doesnt just affect politicians... also appointed officials.

On 7/9/06, Kathleen de la Pe?a McCook <kmccook at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> Why delete? Randy Cunningham's full story may well include sex. Never
> forget Kim Philby, Bob Livingston,  Wilbur Mills, Henry Hyde, and
> many more.
>
> On 8 Jul 2006 at 22:43, Chad Lupkes wrote:
>
> >
> > http://campaigns.wikia.com/wiki/Sex
> > --
> > Chad Lupkes
> > Democracy for Washington
> > http://www.democracyforwashington.com
> > Progressive Democratic Caucuses of Washington
> > http://pdcw.org
> Union Librarian
> http://unionlibrarian.blogspot.com/
> AFT Local 7463
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>


From mboverload at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 18:34:42 2006
From: mboverload at gmail.com (mboverload)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:34:42 -0700
Subject: [Campaigns-l] prurient garbage
In-Reply-To: <00d101c6a438$74e58300$72ce3e18@Stephen>
References: <44B20729.25286.4847E60@localhost>
	<00d101c6a438$74e58300$72ce3e18@Stephen>
Message-ID: <482df7800607101134y3fc8224ft686797307bd14076@mail.gmail.com>

Clinton's impeachment was largely focused on his sexuality, but not about
it.  It was lying about getting his pipe cleaned (hey - what's our policy
about profanity or suggestive words on this list?)

mboverload

On 7/10/06, Stephen Abbott <nhprman at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> I don't believe the level and tenor of discourse associated with both of
> the
> names mentioned here, and others mentioned earlier, are indicative of the
> "new politics" and intillegent tone Jimbo was aiming for here.
>
> Let's keep politicians' sex lives out of this wikia. Or not. Whatever.
> Apparently, there are no limits, rules or guidelines, so "anything goes."
>
> We'll see how that works out. I suspect, however, we'll end up with
> exactly
> what we see on the partisan blogs.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kathleen de la Pe?a McCook" <kmccook at tampabay.rr.com>
> To: <neoclassical at mail.com>; <campaigns-l at wikia.com>;
> <campaigns-l-bounces at wikia.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 7:52 AM
> Subject: [Campaigns-l] prurient garbage
>
>
> > I don't see how one can determine that a central component of
> > humanity--sexuality--is prurient garbage. Clinton's impeachment was
> > largely focused on his sexuality; Robert Livingstone could not serve
> > as Speaker because of his sexuality; etc. etc.
> >
> >
> > On 9 Jul 2006 at 23:21, neoclassical at mail.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > Frankly, I don't see the need for ANY of this purient garbage here.
> > >
> > > "I don't see" is not a logical argument.
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Campaigns-l mailing list
> > Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Campaigns-l mailing list
> Campaigns-l at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/campaigns-l
>
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From clift at publicus.net  Mon Jul 10 19:30:17 2006
From: clift at publicus.net (Steven Clift)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:30:17 -0500
Subject: [Campaigns-l] Lessons we can learn from
Message-ID: <44B26479.29674.1DD175A6@clift.publicus.net>


Greetings all.  I've blogged seven lessons I've picked up from over a 
decade of direct experience with non-partisan attempts to use the 
Internet to promote citizen engagement in elections. I created the 
world's first election-oriented website in 1994. Like the Campaigns 
Wikia effort it was volunteer-based, so I am quite interested in how 
to help this effort make a difference in 2006 and beyond.

The full text of my blog post with dozens of links is here:

    http://www.dowire.org/notes/?p=244

Among other things, I (http://publicus.net) host an e-mail 
newsletter/blog on democracy and the Internet which reaches over 2500 
folks in 100 countries.  Sign-up for e-mail delivery here:
    http://groups.dowire.org/groups/newswire
More info/blog/wiki/etc.: http://dowire.org

Cheers,
Steven Clift


... intro clipped ...

Steven Clift?s Lessons for Improving Elections Online


1. The vast majority of candidates (political parties outside U.S. 
context) will only do online what is politically imperative or viewed 
as required by political competition. The democratically interactive 
exceptions online emanate from extremely rare individuals involved 
with campaigns not stopped by normally risk adverse campaign 
managers.

    Response: The negative consequences of not participating must 
    outweigh the campaign?s predominate expectation that no real voters 
    will care. Campaigns will do something online if they think it will 
    generate free positive media or avoid likely negative public 
    attention. Time limited, asynchronous, online candidate debates 
    (diagram) I?ve worked on, like those hosted by E-Democracy.Org 
    starting in 1994 and the Web White & Blue Presidential online debate 
    in 2000 met the online competitive environment requirement.

2. Candidates only care about THEIR voters during election periods. 
Those outside the district need to be campaign donors to have any 
relevancy.

    Response: To engage candidates, the online system must be 
    geographically relevant because that is how most electoral districts 
    are based. National-based "non-partisan" election issue information 
    is only relevant outside the Presidential campaign if specifically 
    tailored to area candidates/districts.

3. Candidates view the Internet as a way to raise money and organize 
core supporters not engage voters.

    Response: The REAL challenge of any non-partisan effort online is to 
    present actual undecided or persuadable voters to competing 
    candidates. Television advertising, often negative, is the primary 
    way to reach this group which determines who wins elections. There is 
    an online solution somewhere, but very nature of the online medium 
    where user choose what to read/view/listen to makes often less 
    engaged undecided/persuadable voters the most difficult to persuade 
    to click through. Most candidate do a terrible job of promoting their 
    websites online. Perhaps Campaigns Wikia can simply make candidates 
    easier to find via search engines.

4. The problem is not "broadcast campaigning" it stoking a fire under 
broadcast voters. Candidates down the ballot are often extremely 
conversational one-on-one and in small group meetings. Participatory 
media should first be used to create participatory citizens. We will 
be waiting a long long time for "candidates who build genuinely 
participative campaigns by generating and expanding genuine 
communities of engaged citizens."

(I am actually a fan of political blogging. It just isn?t about 
bringing people from across the political spectrum together. On 
DoWire.Org I am hosting an international tactical online community of 
practice on the topic (debates on political issues are not allowed): 
http://groups.dowire.org/groups/polblog )

    Response: Civically-spirited citizens need to take the lead and 
    create local or geographically defined online participatory spaces. 
    These conversational many-to-many spaces must be hosted in a trusted 
    non-partisan "public" manner and attract area citizens (voters) from 
    multiple political perspectives. If such forums are made up of real 
    voters and play an agenda-setting role through the generation of new 
    public opinion and influence on the local media, candidates and 
    elected officials will monitor them and sometimes participate when it 
    makes political sense. Most politicians will not publicly participate 
    in any activity without a perceivable benefit no matter the moral 
    imperative or call to civic duty. (E-Democracy.Org hosts local Issues 
    Forums in this manner in the U.S. and the UK: e-democracy.org/if )

5. The political blogosphere is an extension of television-style 
broadcast punditry. While political blogging does represent a 
democratization of the "pundit panel" on television, most (not all of 
course) political bloggers are not motivated by civic goals such as 
abstractly improving the electoral process - they want their side or 
perspective to win. They are partisans first.

    Response: The Campaigns Wikia should broaden their volunteer appeal 
    to civic-minded citizens. Perhaps even say things like, "stop 
    political bloggers from further destroying civility in elections" or 
    something. :-) Also, Campaigns Wikia should map out where the 
    information gaps are in promoting informed voting. In the U.S., check 
    in with folks like the League of Women Voters Education Fund, take a 
    look at Project Vote Smart and work to get candidates to fill out 
    their NPAT issue position forms (perhaps you can convince them to 
    release the responses under a creative commons license so you too can 
    carry the data), and the only sites that seem to keep up with 
    candidate websites Politics 1 and the (parts of) the Open Directory. 
    Also, the number one lesson from Web White & Blue in 1998 (archived 
    site) and 2000 - the major media sites attract the most eyeballs for 
    political content. Like we did with WWB, syndicate your content to 
    places where voters are online instead of expecting them to come to 
    you. On the international level, check out sites like Election Guide 
    for election dates.

6. Candidate data is essential. Once you have a campaign e-mail 
address or better yet a specific campaign contact you can inform them 
of new opportunities for their campaign to share information or 
respond to questions. Now, "if I had a millions dollars" ... I?d foster 
the creation of a database (creative commons most likely with 
restrictions on bulk use of e-mail addresses) all elective positions 
around the world, the geographic area(s) they represent, the term of 
service and detailed contact data on who currently occupies the 
position. During elections, the database would be adapted to include 
candidates.