From sethf at sethf.com Thu Mar 8 23:09:05 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:09:05 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] UPI - Wikipedia founder to launch search engine In-Reply-To: <20070227183814.GA3896@sethf.com> References: <20070226153632.GA23311@sethf.com> <20070227183814.GA3896@sethf.com> Message-ID: <20070308230905.GA3277@sethf.com> Wikipedia founder to launch search engine Published: March 8, 2007 at 1:49 PM http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Business/Wikipedia_founder_to_launch_search_engine/20070308-015013-6005r/ TOKYO, March 8 (UPI) -- A Wikipedia company will build an Internet search engine that lets users improve on the system, the Internet encyclopedia founder said in Tokyo Thursday. The Wikia Inc. search engine plans to capture as much as 5 percent of the search market and its collaborative search technology could transform the Internet's power structure, Jimmy Wales said. Wales criticized Google Inc. and Yahoo! Inc. for keeping search technologies under wraps and not letting users improve on the process. "We welcome competition," Google told United Press International in a statement, adding it was "more focused on search innovation ... than ever before." Yahoo! did not immediately respond to a UPI query for comment. Wales said the Wikia search engine's constant technological improvement would also give it a leg up on the increasing problem of search-result spam, BetaNews reported. "Search is part of the fundamental infrastructure of the Internet. And it is currently broken," Wales said on a wiki devoted to the project. "It is broken for the same reason that proprietary software is always broken: lack of freedom, lack of community, lack of accountability, lack of transparency. Here, we will change all that." Wales said his venture had received a $4 million investment from "angel investors" as well as a "very large investment" from Amazon.com Inc. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From sethf at sethf.com Wed Mar 14 03:32:43 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:32:43 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] Bloomberg News - Wikia plans editable Web search engine Message-ID: <20070314033243.GA6170@sethf.com> http://www.insidebayarea.com/business/ci_5406665 Wikia plans editable Web search engine By Jonathan Thaw, Bloomberg News Article Last Updated: 03/10/2007 06:28:24 AM PST Wikia Inc., the San Mateo company co-founded by Wikipedia creator Jimmy Wales, plans to challenge Google Inc. and Yahoo Inc. with a search engine that lets users edit and fine-tune its results. The goal for the project is to get 5 percent of the search market, Gil Penchina, chief executive officer of Wikia, said Thursday in an interview. He doesn't know when the service will be released. "We're really trying to build a movement to make search free and open and transparent," Penchina said. "We have some servers up, and people are hacking away." By enlisting programmers and users around the world, Wikia is taking a different approach than Mountain View-based Google and Sunnyvale-based Yahoo, owners of the two most-popular search engines, which keep much of their software code secret. Wikia is hoping the success of Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that users edit themselves, can be extended to the $7 billion U.S. Internet-search market. "We think it's the sort of thing that shouldn't be controlled by one company or one group of companies," Penchina said. Wikia users will collaborate to build an index of Web sites that anyone can edit. They also will be able to fix search results if they don't give useful information, he said. The site will probably include some advertising, Penchina said. U.S. companies spent $6.95 billion on Internet-search ads in 2006, a 35 percent rise from the year before, according to Merrill Lynch & Co. Penchina was named CEO of Wikia in June after spending eight years at online auctioneer eBay Inc. of San Jose. Wikia, which has 33 employees, is funded by investors such as the online retailer Amazon.com Inc., Netscape Communications Inc. co-founder Marc Andreessen and venture-capital firm Bessemer Venture Partners. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From sethf at sethf.com Wed Mar 14 18:31:43 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:31:43 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] Q on "We have some servers up, and people are hacking away." In-Reply-To: <20070314033243.GA6170@sethf.com> References: <20070314033243.GA6170@sethf.com> Message-ID: <20070314183143.GA6866@sethf.com> > http://www.insidebayarea.com/business/ci_5406665 > Penchina said. "We have some servers up, and people are hacking away." By the way, does anybody know what he's talking about here? -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From aerik at thesylvans.com Wed Mar 14 18:34:37 2007 From: aerik at thesylvans.com (Aerik Sylvan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:34:37 -0800 Subject: [Search-l] Q on "We have some servers up, and people are hacking away." In-Reply-To: <20070314183143.GA6866@sethf.com> References: <20070314033243.GA6170@sethf.com> <20070314183143.GA6866@sethf.com> Message-ID: <355a36af0703141134u3ea63e5l2e3edb70ee886311@mail.gmail.com> Depending on what you read, Wikia employs some number of programmers - perhaps that's who's hacking away? On 3/14/07, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > > http://www.insidebayarea.com/business/ci_5406665 > > Penchina said. "We have some servers up, and people are hacking away." > > By the way, does anybody know what he's talking about here? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070314/866df9dd/attachment.html From beesley at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 18:36:18 2007 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:36:18 +0000 Subject: [Search-l] Q on "We have some servers up, and people are hacking away." In-Reply-To: <20070314183143.GA6866@sethf.com> References: <20070314033243.GA6170@sethf.com> <20070314183143.GA6866@sethf.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800703141136x675e8662q420e5997fc975591@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > http://www.insidebayarea.com/business/ci_5406665 > > Penchina said. "We have some servers up, and people are hacking away." > > By the way, does anybody know what he's talking about here? We were intending to set up some separate servers for volunteer developers to work on. I'm not sure what the progress with that is. Angela From peter.burden at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 23:50:31 2007 From: peter.burden at gmail.com (peter burden) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:50:31 +0000 Subject: [Search-l] Q on "We have some servers up, and people are hacking away." In-Reply-To: <8b722b800703141136x675e8662q420e5997fc975591@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070314033243.GA6170@sethf.com> <20070314183143.GA6866@sethf.com> <8b722b800703141136x675e8662q420e5997fc975591@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F88A47.1050301@gmail.com> Angela wrote: > On 3/14/07, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > >>> http://www.insidebayarea.com/business/ci_5406665 >>> Penchina said. "We have some servers up, and people are hacking away." >>> >> By the way, does anybody know what he's talking about here? >> > > We were intending to set up some separate servers for volunteer > developers to work on. I'm not sure what the progress with that is. > Is there any information on what the volunteer developers are actually going to do, what programmes they're going to write, what language(s) they're going to use, how the whole thing is going to be coordinated? > Angela > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > > From ceo at ternaryworks.net Fri Mar 16 18:33:58 2007 From: ceo at ternaryworks.net (Terry J. Smith) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:33:58 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] Why us? Message-ID: In response to the following: HYPERLINK "http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/2007-February/000260.html"http:// lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/2007-February/000260.html I agree with Aerik completely. Before even beginning to think about technology and scalability, from a business perspective we all need to consider ?What makes this search engine better than Google or the like??, and of course ?How can we make this better than existing search engines??. The answer is of course: community. YouTube, Wikipedia, MySpace and other social networking or user content based sites all have their foundations (arguably for YouTube and piracy) in community. The empowerment provided to the users by giving them the abilities to rank their searches is what will bring users to us; and that is of course the most widely advertised and the biggest advantage that we have and we need to play on that: user powered search. To be completely honest, Google?s results are good. But, they?re not great. They are still littered with spam, ?badware? sites, etc. They may have the experts, but hackers and SEO companies are finding new ways to break through the Google algorithms every day and no amount of experts can stop that. However, the same user base and ideology that powers Wikipedia can bring this search engine to the forefront. Thoughts? Aerik?s question about collecting active user feedback is a good one. While I do like the idea of the posed question of ?How well did the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley fit your search for 'Elvis'??, I am inclined to agree with Stavros that the average Joe who we want to get feedback from isn?t going to answer the question. However, this can also be done technologically and recorded. Which page did the user have to go to, to find the desired link? How long did they spend looking for their preferred result? Which link did they finally choose for which search terms, and did they have to try multiple searches in the same session to find what they were looking for? With this information and basic fuzzy logic intelligence in the backend, we can certainly improve the relevancy of results returned. The bottom line is that we are a different search engine, that we are user-powered and that everyone who uses our search engine is contributing whether directly or indirectly. This of course brings up the privacy policy again and we do need to make it very clear what information we are collecting from each search and the user should have an option to not send even anonymous usage information to us. Thoughts, comments, questions, statements and outbursts are of course welcome. Terry P.S. Hello to everyone. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date: 3/13/2007 4:51 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070316/97a5fdc5/attachment.html From jon.stebbings at partyoffers.co.uk Sat Mar 17 15:55:56 2007 From: jon.stebbings at partyoffers.co.uk (Jon Stebbings) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:55:56 -0000 Subject: [Search-l] FW: Welcome to the "Search-l" mailing list (Digest mode) Message-ID: <20070317160240.4975719F030C@ut4.sjc.wikia-inc.com> -----Original Message----- From: search-l-bounces at wikia.com [mailto:search-l-bounces at wikia.com] On Behalf Of search-l-request at wikia.com Sent: 17 March 2007 15:55 To: jon.stebbings at partyoffers.co.uk Subject: Welcome to the "Search-l" mailing list (Digest mode) Welcome to the Search-l at wikia.com mailing list! To post to this list, send your email to: search-l at wikia.com General information about the mailing list is at: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch to or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your subscription page at: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l/jon.stebbings%40partyoffers. co.uk You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to: Search-l-request at wikia.com with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions. You must know your password to change your options (including changing the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: perfecto Normally, Mailman will remind you of your wikia.com mailing list passwords once every month, although you can disable this if you prefer. This reminder will also include instructions on how to unsubscribe or change your account options. There is also a button on your options page that will email your current password to you. From chromaticdesign at mac.com Sat Mar 17 17:02:35 2007 From: chromaticdesign at mac.com (Jeffrey Adkisson) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:02:35 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] FW: Welcome to the "Search-l" mailing list (Digest mode) In-Reply-To: <20070317160240.4975719F030C@ut4.sjc.wikia-inc.com> References: <20070317160240.4975719F030C@ut4.sjc.wikia-inc.com> Message-ID: Why am I getting copied on someone else's email with their password? Jeff On Mar 17, 2007, at 11:55 AM, Jon Stebbings wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: search-l-bounces at wikia.com [mailto:search-l-bounces at wikia.com] On > Behalf Of search-l-request at wikia.com > Sent: 17 March 2007 15:55 > To: jon.stebbings at partyoffers.co.uk > Subject: Welcome to the "Search-l" mailing list (Digest mode) > > Welcome to the Search-l at wikia.com mailing list! > > To post to this list, send your email to: > > search-l at wikia.com > > General information about the mailing list is at: > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > > If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch to > or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your > subscription page at: > > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l/ > jon.stebbings%40partyoffers. > co.uk > > > You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to: > > Search-l-request at wikia.com > > with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the > quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions. > > You must know your password to change your options (including changing > the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: > > perfecto > > Normally, Mailman will remind you of your wikia.com mailing list > passwords once every month, although you can disable this if you > prefer. This reminder will also include instructions on how to > unsubscribe or change your account options. There is also a button on > your options page that will email your current password to you. > > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > Jeffrey Adkisson Chromatic Design, Inc. 55 West 39th Street Suite 802 New York, NY 10018 t 212-921-8118 f 212-921-8119 c 917-848-7743 e chromaticdesign at mac.com From beesley at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 17:40:48 2007 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:40:48 +0000 Subject: [Search-l] FW: Welcome to the "Search-l" mailing list (Digest mode) In-Reply-To: References: <20070317160240.4975719F030C@ut4.sjc.wikia-inc.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800703171040h656a2c63y423555adad8bcf36@mail.gmail.com> On 3/17/07, Jeffrey Adkisson wrote: > Why am I getting copied on someone else's email with their password? I assume Jon accidentally forwarded that mail to the list. I have since reset his password. Angela -- Angela Beesley Wikia.com From sethf at sethf.com Sat Mar 17 18:21:53 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:21:53 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] _New Scientist_ - What's your plan for search? Message-ID: <20070317182153.GA6243@sethf.com> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19325896.300-interview-knowledge-to-the-people.html Why are you developing a search engine? Transparency is what I'm really after, the idea that we can go in and see exactly how web pages are being ranked. We need to have a public debate about it. We just don't know if there is any dishonesty or strange incentives in today's algorithms that rank searches. Since news of this venture broke (see search.wikia.com) we have been contacted by more than one second-tier company that develops search engines. They recognize that acting individually they are going to have a hard time catching up with Google, because Google has so much money and so many great people. What's your plan for search? It's too early for specifics, but one thing that has worked is an alliance in which people contribute to a free software project. We saw this succeed with Apache, the open-source webserver. Apache was a tiny group of volunteers, yet the vast majority of its code has come from companies who paid people to work on it. It's essentially an industrial consortium that has been able to fend off Microsoft's closed-source webserver. So it makes sense for second-tier search companies who are falling behind Google to contribute to a free search software project that will make us equal to Google in terms of search quality. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From ceo at ternaryworks.net Sat Mar 17 23:22:19 2007 From: ceo at ternaryworks.net (Terry J. Smith) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:22:19 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Search Mock-Up Message-ID: While I am of course aware that the design stage is a long way off, while bored today I threw together a possible mock up of a Wikia search engine: http://www.gruvii.com/test/ As always, any thoughts, comments, questions statements and outbursts are welcome. If you guys like it I'll do some more work on it and make it semi-functional. Terry -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.12/724 - Release Date: 3/16/2007 12:12 PM From jwales at wikia.com Sun Mar 18 01:55:01 2007 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:55:01 +0900 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Search Mock-Up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45FC9BF5.2030807@wikia.com> Terry J. Smith wrote: > While I am of course aware that the design stage is a long way off, Awesome! Actually I think some of the design stage is not so far off, and I plan to respond tomorrow morning to some of the interesting emails on this list over the last few days and post a set of practical steps that I think we want to focus on first. (Simple API type stuff so that people can start working/thinking about tools for editors, etc.) --Jimbo From mduffy_lists at yahoo.com Sun Mar 18 19:16:49 2007 From: mduffy_lists at yahoo.com (Mike Duffy) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Search-l] Is Wikia Hiring? Message-ID: <442458.69835.qm@web31803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I do not see any job postings on Wikia's site. Is Wikia hiring? ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From ceo at ternaryworks.net Mon Mar 19 12:20:04 2007 From: ceo at ternaryworks.net (Terry Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:20:04 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] Is Wikia Hiring? Message-ID: At this point is it my understanding that Wikia Search will simply be powered by the open source community and volunteer programmers. I'm sure they will eventually hire others once the search engine has launched, but that is still some ways off so everything for now is basic planning and testing by interested community members. But, on the other hand, it never hurts to send in a resume so that they can keep it on file for the future. Terry From aerik at thesylvans.com Wed Mar 21 03:33:05 2007 From: aerik at thesylvans.com (Aerik Sylvan) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:33:05 -0700 Subject: [Search-l] Dice poll? Message-ID: <355a36af0703202033k6ee9b6aax31d80230f32b5419@mail.gmail.com> This was on dice.com - I thought it was interesting. Jimmy, if nothing else, you sure have created a lot of buzz. *Tech Topic* The founder of the popular Internet encyclopedia Wikipedia says he plans to launch a new search engine to compete with Google and Yahoo. How much success will the new search engine have? Lots. People love Wikipedia, and I think they're sick of manipulated results on Google. 29% Some. If users are allowed to participate in the design, it could really take off. 24% A little. Some Wikipedia addicts will use it, but it'll be hard to convert new users. 31% None. Take on Google and Yahoo in this day and age? I don't see this ending well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070320/1cf70972/attachment.html From chromaticdesign at mac.com Wed Mar 21 15:23:03 2007 From: chromaticdesign at mac.com (Jeffrey Adkisson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:23:03 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] Dice poll? In-Reply-To: <355a36af0703202033k6ee9b6aax31d80230f32b5419@mail.gmail.com> References: <355a36af0703202033k6ee9b6aax31d80230f32b5419@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98de6f48af0d7a4718f1e70b2eb3ffc1@mac.com> I think it will take over the larger share of the market, especially if it gets enough press and links, and if the format keeps it as advertising-free/neutral as google used to be (finds you the most accurate links without dragging you through sales sites). One thing most people don't know how to do is the extra quotes and marks to get specific information from general searches (used to be + in between words, now in google it's " before and after, or so I'm told). Do we have these type of search tools included? Can they be called out somewhere to make it more obvious? Everyone I speak to complains about google. A replacement is overdue! Jeff On Mar 20, 2007, at 11:33 PM, Aerik Sylvan wrote: > This was on dice.com - I thought it was interesting. > > Jimmy, if nothing else, you sure have created a lot of buzz. > > > Tech Topic > > ?The founder of the popular Internet encyclopedia Wikipedia says he > plans to launch a new search engine to compete with Google and Yahoo. > How much success will the new search engine have? > Lots. People love Wikipedia, and I think they're sick of manipulated > results on Google. > ? 29% > Some. If users are allowed to participate in the design, it could > really take off. > ? 24% > A little. Some Wikipedia addicts will use it, but it'll be hard to > convert new users. > ? 31% > None. Take on Google and Yahoo in this day and age? I don't see this > ending well. > > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l Jeffrey Adkisson Chromatic Design, Inc. 55 West 39th Street Suite 802 New York, NY 10018 tel: 212-921-8118 fax: 212-921-8119 email: chromaticdesign at mac.com From peter.burden at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 18:10:31 2007 From: peter.burden at gmail.com (peter burden) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:10:31 +0000 Subject: [Search-l] Dice poll? In-Reply-To: <98de6f48af0d7a4718f1e70b2eb3ffc1@mac.com> References: <355a36af0703202033k6ee9b6aax31d80230f32b5419@mail.gmail.com> <98de6f48af0d7a4718f1e70b2eb3ffc1@mac.com> Message-ID: <46017517.1070809@gmail.com> Jeffrey Adkisson wrote: > I think it will take over the larger share of the market, especially if > it gets enough > press and links, and if the format keeps it as advertising-free/neutral > as google used to be > (finds you the most accurate links without dragging you through sales > sites). > > One thing most people don't know how to do is the extra quotes and > marks to get > specific information from general searches (used to be + in between > words, now in google > it's " before and after, or so I'm told). Do we have these type of > search tools included? > Can they be called out somewhere to make it more obvious? > A fair point. Google does however provide information, after some effort I found the details at http://www.google.co.uk/intl/en/help/basics.html I'm not sure how many of Google's fairly extensive set of search options we should attempt to support. It would probably be best to implement the most important ones first - these, IMHO, would be the basic implicit AND, the phrase search and the option to include common words in the query. Others could follow later. > Everyone I speak to complains about google. A replacement is overdue! > > Jeff > > On Mar 20, 2007, at 11:33 PM, Aerik Sylvan wrote: > > >> This was on dice.com - I thought it was interesting. >> >> Jimmy, if nothing else, you sure have created a lot of buzz. >> >> >> Tech Topic >> >> The founder of the popular Internet encyclopedia Wikipedia says he >> plans to launch a new search engine to compete with Google and Yahoo. >> How much success will the new search engine have? >> Lots. People love Wikipedia, and I think they're sick of manipulated >> results on Google. >> 29% >> Some. If users are allowed to participate in the design, it could >> really take off. >> 24% >> A little. Some Wikipedia addicts will use it, but it'll be hard to >> convert new users. >> 31% >> None. Take on Google and Yahoo in this day and age? I don't see this >> ending well. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Search-l mailing list >> Search-l at wikia.com >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l >> Change options or unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l >> > Jeffrey Adkisson > Chromatic Design, Inc. > 55 West 39th Street > Suite 802 > New York, NY 10018 > > tel: 212-921-8118 > fax: 212-921-8119 > email: chromaticdesign at mac.com > > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > > From aerik at thesylvans.com Wed Mar 21 18:13:17 2007 From: aerik at thesylvans.com (Aerik Sylvan) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:13:17 -0800 Subject: [Search-l] Thoughts on the "Bazaar Development Model" Message-ID: <355a36af0703211113l16cc1fd6p8affcb83455d3e61@mail.gmail.com> Hi Everyone, In watching this list, and reading some of the stuff posted at search.wikia.com, I am struck by the thought that this is an interesting experiment in a pure bazaar development model (as in "The cathedral and the bazaar" ). But unless we're doing that for it's own sake, I wonder if that's the best way to go for this endeavor. We've had a few people come and strongly promote some ideas, and we've also had statements of targeted existing technologies (Lucene and Nutch) from Jimmy, but I think we've not had anything even approaching consensus or a real plan to get there. Frankly, I wonder if we've actually got the attention of the people who could actually do the work (I don't know Java and don't have the time to learn it right now, so I'm not going to be much help for a lot of actual code writing - much as I'd love to work on making this a reality). Also, at the risk of sounding quite negative, this is (at least it sounds like) a for-profit venture that doesn't have nearly the "make the world a better place" appeal of wikipedia - so I don't know that we'll attract developers the same as wikipedia. So, I'm writing about all this in the interests of discussion. There have been some posts asking "what are we gonna do?" but I think the important discussion to keep going is "this is what I think we should do". If we're going to develop this using a pure bazaar model, we've gotta start by getting interested parties (all of us) to hammer out the beginnings of a spec. We've got something like a very rough, high level outline of this, but I think we've stalled out. Finally, and very importantly, is there anyone on the list who is actually capable of setting up a Nutch/Lucene search engine? Are you willing to devote some time to doing it? BTW - in regards to my last post (the poll from dice.com), I'm a big fan of this project as well, even if I have a bunch of concerns about it ever actually getting off the ground. Aerik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070321/159b8ff0/attachment.html From ceo at ternaryworks.net Wed Mar 21 21:42:53 2007 From: ceo at ternaryworks.net (Terry J. Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:42:53 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] Dice poll? Message-ID: I think this is where a real base in natural language with regards to the search would be extremely useful. Thoughts? Terry -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.16/729 - Release Date: 3/21/2007 7:52 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070321/6a946788/attachment.html From orenshani at nana.co.il Sat Mar 24 05:50:41 2007 From: orenshani at nana.co.il (Oren Shani) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:50:41 +0200 Subject: [Search-l] Introducing Strobili In-Reply-To: <4604B46B.3030800@nana.co.il> References: <4604B46B.3030800@nana.co.il> Message-ID: <4604BC31.1010908@nana.co.il> Hi All, I was thrilled to learn about this project, as for me, it came just in the right moment. For years I was brewing a certain idea in my mind, which as it turns out, goes almost along exactly the same lines as the Wikia search initiative. As a long admitted Wikiholic, I would be more than happy to jump on the wagon and contribute my ideas to the project. I nicknamed my concept of a search engine (or actually a content organization solution - which is much more than a search engine), "Strobili", and I really hope that it can become a major part of the Wikia search project. Strobili presents a very mature concept that is based on well established theoretical and practical research, and is in a ready to write phase. I am just about to start writing a prototype (it will be coded in Ruby), and I have began uploading some initial information to the Wikia search wiki. Please have a look at http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Strobili and follow the links to learn about the main concept of Strobil, the Strobili session manager, and Strobil seeds and cones. I am eagerly waiting for your feedback. I would like to know if the concept is understood and weather it can really become a part of the Wikia Search engine. Many thanks, Oren Shani From ceo at ternaryworks.net Sat Mar 24 13:34:59 2007 From: ceo at ternaryworks.net (Terry Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 09:34:59 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] Introducing Strobili Message-ID: I definitely think that Strobili as a concept could be useful to the search engine. The idea has already been broached about Java Script and AJAX methods being used to record what actions a user makes while looking for any particular information. This would of course be stored in the database then when a particular correlation is found, it will be applied to future searches. I apologize if this is over simplifying your idea but I am interested in hearing more about your plan for implementing it and if it is different that the general idea above. Terry From mduffy_lists at yahoo.com Tue Mar 27 18:15:49 2007 From: mduffy_lists at yahoo.com (Mike Duffy) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Search-l] Introducing Strobili In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <95609.81457.qm@web31808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If these concepts (http://ishi.lanl.gov/symintel.html) could be applied in a generalized manner they could have great value; however, if they require a great deal of custom engineering it may inefficient to apply them to a collaborative Internet search system. Mike --- Terry Smith wrote: > I definitely think that Strobili as a concept could be useful to the search > engine. The idea has already been broached about Java Script and AJAX > methods being used to record what actions a user makes while looking for any > particular information. This would of course be stored in the database then > when a particular correlation is found, it will be applied to future > searches. > > I apologize if this is over simplifying your idea but I am interested in > hearing more about your plan for implementing it and if it is different that > the general idea above. > > Terry > > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php From mduffy_lists at yahoo.com Tue Mar 27 18:16:09 2007 From: mduffy_lists at yahoo.com (Mike Duffy) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Search-l] Introducing Strobili In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <395430.41228.qm@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If these concepts (http://ishi.lanl.gov/symintel.html) could be applied in a generalized manner they could have great value; however, if they require a great deal of custom engineering it may inefficient to apply them to a collaborative Internet search system. Mike --- Terry Smith wrote: > I definitely think that Strobili as a concept could be useful to the search > engine. The idea has already been broached about Java Script and AJAX > methods being used to record what actions a user makes while looking for any > particular information. This would of course be stored in the database then > when a particular correlation is found, it will be applied to future > searches. > > I apologize if this is over simplifying your idea but I am interested in > hearing more about your plan for implementing it and if it is different that > the general idea above. > > Terry > > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html From orenshani at nana.co.il Wed Mar 28 19:08:21 2007 From: orenshani at nana.co.il (Oren Shani) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:08:21 +0200 Subject: [Search-l] Thoughts on the "Bazaar Development Model" Message-ID: <460ABD25.5000105@nana.co.il> I agree with what Aerik wrote in principle, but what really puzzles me is that everybody seem to complain about how things do not get into order and at the same time things keep happening mostly on this mailing list while the Search Wikia wiki remains almost idle. I would like to urge everybody to start using the wiki. This will be both more practical and sort of practicing our own preach... In particular I would like to recommend everybody to start filling up the SUCCESSFUL design tables in http://search.wikia.com/wiki/SUCCESSFUL_design SUCCESSFUL design is a very powerful technique for defining top level requirements and specs for projects. I used it in my previous working place and it was very helpful. Oren Shani From orenshani at nana.co.il Wed Mar 28 19:37:02 2007 From: orenshani at nana.co.il (Oren Shani) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:37:02 +0200 Subject: [Search-l] Introducing Strobili References: NS1uSB5UeiTVdY57io600000061@ternaryworks.net Message-ID: <460AC3DE.9080409@nana.co.il> Mike, Could you please explain what do you mean by "custom engineering"? Thanks, Oren From mduffy_lists at yahoo.com Thu Mar 29 18:02:34 2007 From: mduffy_lists at yahoo.com (Mike Duffy) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Search-l] Introducing Strobili In-Reply-To: <460AC3DE.9080409@nana.co.il> Message-ID: <348602.86441.qm@web31808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In your description of the call center example you state, "The meaning of this phenomenon is that if we could somehow break the service calls handling process into individual steps, and track the policies which are used in each step, we could learn how effective (and thus recommended) each policy is, by simply measuring how much it is being used." It seems that this process would require customization and could not be applied in a simple, general way. I hope that I am wrong because there are some very interesting concepts at the link you referenced: http://ishi.lanl.gov/symintel.html Mike --- Oren Shani wrote: > Mike, > > > Could you please explain what do you mean by "custom engineering"? > > > Thanks, > > > Oren > > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From orenshani at nana.co.il Fri Mar 30 05:55:31 2007 From: orenshani at nana.co.il (=?windows-1255?B?4OX47yD58Ok=?=) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:55:31 +0300 Subject: [Search-l] Introducing Strobili References: <510464.47346.qm@web31805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mike, The concern you are raising, about what is known as "cost of engineering" is actually one of the things that the self organization models that are presented by LANL's diversity lab are most suitable to tackle with. The idea is to relay on an adaptive mesh-up process instead of a-priori analysis and engineering. If to put it in "Strobili terms", customization is done at the specific cone level and in this manner it is broken down to small steps that are done by many people in a way that gradually builds up the knowledge space. Actually, it is the more specific applications that may need a greater engineering effort, but I think it would still be reasonable and affordable. This is what I meant when I wrote the following: "While more and more organizations become open to adopt this kind of solutions, the main problem remains with the assimilation of the new working paradigms that they represent. Strobili will enable taking on this challenge in a graduate mesh-up manner, but still, successful assimilation will require that the process will be fostered by specially trained advisers. This actually creates a revenue opportunity because the value for the organization is still big enough to cover for the assimilation expanses." Regds, Oren -----????? ??????----- ???: Mike Duffy [mailto:mduffy_lists at yahoo.com] ????: ? 29/03/2007 20:01 ??: ???? ??? ????: Re: [Search-l] Introducing Strobili In your description of the call center example you state, "The meaning of this phenomenon is that if we could somehow break the service calls handling process into individual steps, and track the policies which are used in each step, we could learn how effective (and thus recommended) each policy is, by simply measuring how much it is being used." It seems that this process would require customization and could not be applied in a simple, general way. I hope that I am wrong because there are some very interesting concepts at the link you referenced: http://ishi.lanl.gov/symintel.html Mike --- Oren Shani wrote: > Mike, > > > Could you please explain what do you mean by "custom engineering"? > > > Thanks, > > > Oren > > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070330/c8a94c48/attachment.html