From sethf at sethf.com Tue May 1 01:05:25 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:05:25 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] Valleywag: Jason Calacanis' next venture [Wikipedia-model search] Message-ID: <20070501010525.GA15177@sethf.com> [Disclaimer - I'm forwarding this article for interest because it discusses the general topic and connects to the Wikia project in specific. The views in the article and the criticisms of commentators below do not necessarily represent my own views] http://valleywag.com/tech/informed-speculation/jason-calacanis-next-venture-256549.php Jason Calacanis, the publishing entrepreneur who sold a group of weblogs to AOL for $25m, has enjoyed sowing confusion about his plans. We've been fooled ourselves. There was the rumor run by Valleywag that the avid podcaster intended to hire Don Imus, another hint that he was drawn to online video. As an entrepreneur-in-action with Sequoia, whatever that term means, the hyper-active exec said he was wading through business plans submitted to the Silicon Valley venture capital firm. He announced a conference joint venture with Michael Arrington of Techcrunch. But several people, in a position to know of his plans, say these schemes are at most hobbies, or pure disinformation; the next venture is a search engine. Calacanis, we hear, has already hired about 20 engineers to work on the project. Begun in the poolhouse of his Santa Monica home, it recently moved to an office nearby. Sequoia isn't merely giving him shelter while he comes up with a new idea; Roelof Botha, Calacanis' patron at Sequoia, has already committed the funds. Former associates of Calacanis, such as Mark Cuban and Jonathan Miller, his former boss at AOL, are also backing the venture. So what's the idea? It's a cross between Wikipedia and Google. Calacanis' new site will create more digestible search results for popular queries such as the names of Hollywood stars, and tech products. The pages will be seeded, initially, with content gathered automatically from the web and other sources. But they will be open to contributions by readers. Sounds like Wikipedia? Yes: except Calacanis will employ paid editors to oversee the pages. The project makes perfect sense for Calacanis. 1. Money. The bust came before Calacanis could cash out of Silicon Alley Reporter, his first startup. The establishment of Weblogs Inc, and its sale to AOL, restored his entrepreneurial reputation, but didn't make him as rich as poker buddies such as Jeff Dachis, founder of Razorfish. Calacanis wants to make serious money out of his next venture; he has told people his next venture will be the biggest thing he's done. He's too savvy to bet on podcasting, for which there's no significant advertising; he's long been fascinated by search marketing; of course he would address a big opportunity, and there is none bigger on the web. 2. Paid editorial. In building a blog group, and in the work he did for Netscape, Calacanis has always believed in paid editors. Remember, he comes from a traditional publishing background. It's a pattern: take a concept which relies on volunteer labor; copy; and professionalize. When running Weblogs Inc, the weblog group he sold to AOL, Calacanis, like Gawker Media, typically hired bloggers who had previously written for fun, and for free. In copying Digg's voting system on news headlines, when at Netscape, Calacanis hired away some of the top unpaid contributors to the social news site. He's already criticized Wikipedia, the collaborative encyclopedia, for its reliance on uncredentialed editors; it would be entirely consistent with his fast follower's strategy to copy Wikipedia, poach its top editors, and pay them. 3. Blogging. Calacanis is bound, I believe, still by the terms of a non-compete with AOL, so he can't simply replicate the blog network he sold to the Time Warner internet company. But the pages of his new search engine, if frequently updated with news, reader comments, and editorial write-ups, could end up looking much like topic-specific blogs. It's a good way for Calacanis to apply what he knows about lightweight publishing, without obviously retracing his steps. So, the big question: will it work? One person who's seen a prototype describes it as labor-intensive -- "very web 1.0." And even one of the former blog mogul's fans says: "It is extremely ambitious, and it will probably fail." The field is crowded, with companies such as Wikia, a new venture from the founder of Wikipedia; specialist search engines such as Spock; and established "human" search engines such as About.com, owned by the New York Times. Above all, Google itself is gradually enriching its main search results with content such as news headlines and images -- and purging other search engines which sneak into its results. But I wouldn't count out Calacanis. For a start, as we experienced at Gawker Media, he's a ferocious competitor. He loves the smell of battle. Second, there's a limit to the potential of user-generated content. The pool of volunteers is limited. A web 1.0 approach, hiring a team of editors to manage user-generated and aggregated content, sounds sensible, rather than backward. And is it foolhardy to go up against Google in search? Of course the field is crowded, and competitive. But that's because it's so profitable. Search marketing draws the ambitious entrepreneur, such as Calacanis, much as banks do robbers: that's where the money is. From Jason Calacanis: Search?!?! Oh please... Also, the logic makes no sense: My noncompete is for blog networks--not audio/video. Where do you get this stuff?! 04/30/07 05:08 PM 04/30/07 05:41 PM Mike Snow says: Jason's criticized Wikipedia for relying on unpaid editors - really, where? I thought he criticized it for passing up untold millions by not carrying ads. JasonCalacanis says: this is almost as good as the don imus stuff... i love you guys--you'll print anything. :-) 04/30/07 06:02 PM Nick Denton says: Hmmm, can't find a direct reference in writing. There's this... From Calacanis blog post. "I've been saying for a couple of years now that annonimity on the Wikipedia was unacceptable and would have to go away and it seems like even Jimmy Wales is heading in that direction. After getting his butt kicked for the past two weeks for not only getting duped--but also hiring--a Wikipedia editor who lied about his credentials, Jimbo posted the follow (re)proposal to a Wikipedia discussion group." http://www.calacanis.com/2007/03/09/wikipedia-will-check-c... David Quiec says: Good write-up; not too much mud-slinging at JC. Whether its true or not, it is compelling. 04/30/07 06:06 PM JasonCalacanis says: Well, I do believe that a) wikipedia should eliminate anonymous editing (at least for the top pages, living bios, etc) and that b) wikipedia should have advertising so they can meet their mounting bills and hire some folks to manage major errors in things like living bios. Of course, I'm not the first person to discuss this... in fact Larry Sanger--the creator of wikipedia--was a guest on my podcast discussing the issue and what he's done about it at citizendium. of course, I think only a very foolish person would try to take on Google or Wikipedia--let alone both at the same time! 04/30/07 06:07 PM Mike Snow says: @JasonCalacanis: That would be a reason to spin it as filling the space between the two, while still letting the media use the obvious Google and Wikipedia similarities to build up hype for the project. 04/30/07 06:27 PM Mike Snow says: And for seed content, Jason could go back to Netscape and convince them to sell dmoz. 04/30/07 06:30 PM Gabe Rivera says: Interesting that JC hasn't denied the substance of the post. Personally, I think there's a huge opportunity in introducing explicit moderation into search, if done right. Big "if". 04/30/07 07:11 PM JasonCalacanis says: Gabe: I deny it 100%... it's absurd. I do have a pool house however. :-) 04/30/07 07:12 PM Nick Denton says: @JasonCalacanis: Oh, I'm sure even you wouldn't be rash enough to boast about taking on Google. Particularly when you'll need to place high in Google search for key phrases, and Google's indicating it may clamp down on other search engines such as Technorati which create permanent "tag" pages designed to show up high in the results. That shouldn't be so much of a risk if there's plenty of original and reader-generated content on each page. And I guess you'll rely on a Google Adwords deal for revenue. So you'll probably downplay the search, and emphasize the competition against Wikipedia, which is a big but less intimidating target. But, sooner or later, this venture comes into conflict with Google. Which, like I say, isn't a bad thing: that's where the money is. From epicurus at gmail.com Tue May 1 02:08:23 2007 From: epicurus at gmail.com (Ed Whittaker) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:08:23 +0900 Subject: [Search-l] I'm awake too... plus, an idea In-Reply-To: <355a36af0704301003u59350706v4b75766edc07809a@mail.gmail.com> References: <355a36af0704301003u59350706v4b75766edc07809a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Not sure about this idea but if you did it there would be no reason to select only one algorithm necessarily or evolve only one. You could use *all* your algorithms up to that point and perhaps use the verdicts on each of them to weight the contribution from each algorithm. Might end up being computationally expensive but I believe MSoft are doing something a bit similar for live with about 200 or so different features including standard "features" like tf/idf, and page quality, all combined in a neural network. Somehow. I have no details sorry. -Ed On 5/1/07, Aerik Sylvan wrote: > > Okay, it's 10:01am in Silicon Valley and I'm awake and even reasonably > alert :-) > > Here's something I don't know if I've mentioned before: One thing we > could do to apply the community to improve search results is to constantly > rotate in different algorithms and let users rate the result relevance. > Sure, maybe Joe Averageuser wouldn't want to have much to do with that, but > even a dedicated core of few hundred power users could quickly create > significant statistics about what algorithms are *actually* working better. > But you'd never want to stop - constantly take in new ideas about what data > to collect and how to weight it, then collect data about how well the > algorithm is working in real time. Use the feedback from that to "evolve" > the algorithms. > > (Cross-posting this to Brainstorming as well). > > Aerik > > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070501/e660385c/attachment.html From me at mark-elliott.net Tue May 1 07:12:24 2007 From: me at mark-elliott.net (Mark Elliott) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 17:12:24 +1000 Subject: [Search-l] New Directions In Semantic Interoperability Message-ID: <21e75e70705010012s185e74d6if472a3c20afce6c8@mail.gmail.com> unfortunately i don't have the time to have a propper look at this right now (mad dash to finish my phd), but just received it on another list and seems like it might be of relevance to the concerns here. - a report which apparently is the result of R&D funding by the intelligence community, defense, and homeland security, etc... http://colab.cim3.net/file/work/SICoP/2007-04-25/LRussell04252007.ppt cheers, mark -- ----- Mark Elliott PhD Candidate Collaboration Internet Collaboration & Innovation Social Change The Centre for Ideas Victorian College of the Arts The University of Melbourne 234 St Kilda Rd SOUTHBANK 3006 Victoria, Australia Mob: 0421 978 501 Fax: +61 3 9682 1841 http://mark-elliott.net/, http://metacollab.net/ m.elliott at vca.unimelb.edu.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070501/998efd0a/attachment.html From macrakis at alum.mit.edu Tue May 1 13:45:31 2007 From: macrakis at alum.mit.edu (Stavros Macrakis) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:45:31 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] I'm awake too... plus, an idea In-Reply-To: References: <355a36af0704301003u59350706v4b75766edc07809a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b356f880705010645q706345a6q50f9fd5c6c3399f0@mail.gmail.com> On 4/30/07, Ed Whittaker wrote: > > ...there would be no reason to select only one algorithm necessarily or > evolve only one. You could use *all* your algorithms up to that point and > perhaps use the verdicts on each of them to weight the contribution from > each algorithm. > That is what all the major search engines do these days. Though everyone has heard of PageRank, HITS/ExpertRank, TrustRank, etc., the elegant published algorithms are just one part of ranking. You might want to read: An interview with Apostolos Gerasoulis (scientist) and Jim Lanzone (VP) of Ask: http://www.e-marketing-news.co.uk/Feb05/apostolos.html Beyond PageRank, by three Microsoft/MSN researchers: http://www2006.org/programme/files/xhtml/3101/p3101-Richardson.html Good reading, -s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070501/3973ab1d/attachment.html From sethf at sethf.com Tue May 1 14:11:14 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:11:14 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Press Release on search project Message-ID: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> [Disclaimer - I'm only reposting this.] http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2007/5/emw523078.htm Jabber Founder Jeremie Miller Joins Forces with Jimmy Wales to Build Open Search Platform Miller to spearhead development of a new search platform combining human intelligence with open protocols. San Mateo, Calif. (PRWEB) May 1, 2007 -- Wikia, Inc. (www.wikia.com) the leading provider of community resources for building and organizing free content on every topic, today announced that Jabber founder Jeremie Miller has joined forces with Wikia founder Jimmy Wales to collaborate on building a new search platform founded on open-source search protocols and human collaboration. Miller is widely recognized as the inventor of Jabber, an open instant messaging community and the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP), which is an open protocol that allows instant messaging platforms to interoperate and users to communicate freely and safely. Building on the same principles, Miller hopes to combine the transparency and power of an open protocol with the efficacy of a user-editable search experience. "The Internet and Web are founded on completely open principles, I've championed this philosophy for instant messaging and believe that the awesome power of search should be based on the same fundamental rules," said Jeremie Miller. "The power of a simple protocol is that it enables networks of resources to collaborate openly, to be constructive instead of competitive. I'm eager to work with Jimmy and empower everyone in the search industry with a transparent collaborative open protocol, from researchers, to developers, vertical search startups, and most importantly, end users." The conversation is evolving at Wikia's search.wikia.com (www.search.wikia.com) community wiki, through which Wikia is funding and supporting the development of something radically new. Together Miller and Wales aim to build a new economy for Internet search that relies on absolute transparency, collaboration, and human intelligence to complement search algorithms. "Jeremie is a brilliant thinker and a natural fit to help revolutionize the world of search," said Jimmy Wales, founder and chairman of Wikia. "I believe Internet search is currently broken and the way to fix it is to build a community whose mission is to develop a search platform that is open and totally transparent. This is exactly what we've set out to do at search.wikia.com and we're thrilled to have Jeremie helping evolve this vision." For more information or to get involved, please visit: www.search.wikia.com -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From sethf at sethf.com Tue May 1 14:27:59 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:27:59 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] CNET: Wikipedia co-founder wants open-source search engine In-Reply-To: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> Message-ID: <20070501142759.GA25924@sethf.com> [Disclaimer - Forwarded, since it has additional commentary and information] [Wikipedia/Wikia/Search confusion below are the writer's errors, not mine] http://news.com.com/2100-1032_3-6180379.html Wikipedia co-founder wants open-source search engine By Michael Kanellos Staff Writer, CNET News.com Published: April 30, 2007, 9:00 PM PDT Does the world need open-source search tools? The people at Wikipedia think so. The folks behind the public encyclopedia have launched Wikia, a project to develop a search engine, crawlers and other indexing tools through a collaborative, open-source process. Contributors will likely include graduate students as well large companies that want to include search functionality in their products but don't want to pay royalties to a search company, according to Wikia CEO Gil Penchina. Another constituency will likely be smaller search companies that don't have the time or money to do everything required for a complete search service themselves. "Everyone has to crawl the Web, but it costs a lot of money," Penchina said. "There has been a lot of interest in academia for better tools." The concept is being promoted largely by Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales and Jabber founder Jeremie Miller. The ultimate goal of the project is to bring "absolute transparency, collaboration and human intelligence to complement search algorithms," according to a press release. "Jeremie is a brilliant thinker and a natural fit to help revolutionize the world of search," Wales said in a statement. "I believe Internet search is currently broken and the way to fix it is to build a community whose mission is to develop a search platform that is open and totally transparent." Not mentioned in the press release is the fact that Wikia is a for-profit venture. The complete business plan has yet to be worked out, but profits and revenue may be derived from advertising or services, Penchina said. The intellectual property behind Wikia, however, will be freely licensed under standard open-source mechanisms. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From jeremie at jabber.org Tue May 1 16:23:16 2007 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:23:16 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Press Release on search project In-Reply-To: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> Message-ID: <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> Thanks Seth, I was hoping to say something first but this (media stuff) all happened kind of quickly :) I apologize to the list about the PR sensationalism, I'm really just here as a deeply interested and passionate individual trying to contribute what I can since I share the vision. I do have a bunch of ideas/discussions that, like everyone should, I'll be sending to the list and putting on the wiki as I find time. If it isn't obvious, one of the areas I'll personally be coding and developing is around an open protocol and how it can play what I think is a very cool role in building a search technology community. For those that noticed my post here in Jan, I've been working on ideas for the protocol for some time now. Anyway, cheers all! Jer On May 1, 2007, at 9:11 AM, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > [Disclaimer - I'm only reposting this.] > > http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2007/5/emw523078.htm > > Jabber Founder Jeremie Miller Joins Forces with Jimmy Wales to Build > Open Search Platform > > Miller to spearhead development of a new search platform combining > human intelligence with open protocols. > > San Mateo, Calif. (PRWEB) May 1, 2007 -- Wikia, Inc. (www.wikia.com) > the leading provider of community resources for building and > organizing free content on every topic, today announced that Jabber > founder Jeremie Miller has joined forces with Wikia founder Jimmy > Wales to collaborate on building a new search platform founded on > open-source search protocols and human collaboration. > > Miller is widely recognized as the inventor of Jabber, an open instant > messaging community and the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol > (XMPP), which is an open protocol that allows instant messaging > platforms to interoperate and users to communicate freely and safely. > Building on the same principles, Miller hopes to combine the > transparency and power of an open protocol with the efficacy of a > user-editable search experience. > > "The Internet and Web are founded on completely open principles, I've > championed this philosophy for instant messaging and believe that the > awesome power of search should be based on the same fundamental > rules," said Jeremie Miller. "The power of a simple protocol is that > it enables networks of resources to collaborate openly, to be > constructive instead of competitive. I'm eager to work with Jimmy and > empower everyone in the search industry with a transparent > collaborative open protocol, from researchers, to developers, vertical > search startups, and most importantly, end users." > > The conversation is evolving at Wikia's search.wikia.com > (www.search.wikia.com) community wiki, through which Wikia is funding > and supporting the development of something radically new. Together > Miller and Wales aim to build a new economy for Internet search that > relies on absolute transparency, collaboration, and human intelligence > to complement search algorithms. > > "Jeremie is a brilliant thinker and a natural fit to help > revolutionize the world of search," said Jimmy Wales, founder and > chairman of Wikia. "I believe Internet search is currently broken and > the way to fix it is to build a community whose mission is to develop > a search platform that is open and totally transparent. This is > exactly what we've set out to do at search.wikia.com and we're > thrilled to have Jeremie helping evolve this vision." > > For more information or to get involved, please visit: > www.search.wikia.com > > -- > Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ > Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ > Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/ > options/search-l From sethf at sethf.com Tue May 1 16:43:04 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 12:43:04 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] Wired: Open-Source Guru Jeremie Miller Takes Over At Wikia Search In-Reply-To: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> Message-ID: <20070501164304.GA26427@sethf.com> http://blog.wired.com/business/2007/04/opensource_guru.html [Disclaimer - an FYI repost, no deeper meaning implied] Monday, April 30, 2007 Open-Source Guru Jeremie Miller Takes Over At Wikia Search The Wikia Search project has a new head honcho. And he's a superstar. Jabber creator Jeremie Miller has joined up with Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales and Wikia CEO Gil Penchina to spearhead the company's collaborative open-source search project. Miller is best known as the brains behind the Jabber open-source instant messaging platform and the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP), two technologies used in the multi-protocol chat applications created by Google, Apple and Pidgin (nee Gaim). Unlike chat services from AOL, Yahoo and MSN, a Jabber service can be hosted in-house, making it the prefered IM platform for security-minded companies and organizations. Not much has been heard of Penchina and Wales' open-source search project since it was first announced near the end of December, 2006. The fact that the project was still barely off the ground after four months was a signal that it was time for Wikia Search to call in some expert help. "We realized that we need to make this a collaborative effort if it's going to work," Penchina told Wired News. Wales and Penchina assembled a short list of "about 20" open-source innovators they felt would be a good fit. Miller's knowledge of managing open-source development communities and his commitment to the so-called "Bazaar" method of software development made him a strong candidate. "He views search as something that's object oriented," says Penchina. "People can work on little projects that plug in independently without worrying so much about the larger whole. That's actually close to the Jabber approach." Our next question: Who else is on that list of 20? "The usual suspects," says Penchina. "The people who worked on the LAMP stack are obvious choices. As you can imagine, these guys get offers left and right... We've really reached out to as many folks as we could." --Story by Michael Calore. Photo: Linux Magazine -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From dirson at gmail.com Tue May 1 17:13:21 2007 From: dirson at gmail.com (Dirson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:13:21 +0200 Subject: [Search-l] Simpy Chichimichi - "Wikia Search - Not Happening" In-Reply-To: <4635BF51.1000401@wikia.com> References: <20070429142216.GA30198@sethf.com> <815551.73706.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <355a36af0704290929w522b362aqcf806253ae99aae0@mail.gmail.com> <4635BF51.1000401@wikia.com> Message-ID: > We have a big announcement soon. Possibly today. I would blurt it out > right now, but I better wait until they wake up in California. :) > > --Jimbo Is the arrival of Jeremie Miller the big announcement? From sethf at sethf.com Tue May 1 17:19:44 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 13:19:44 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Press Release on search project In-Reply-To: <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> Message-ID: <20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com> On Tue, May 01, 2007 at 11:23:16AM -0500, jer wrote: > Thanks Seth, I was hoping to say something first but this (media > stuff) all happened kind of quickly :) No problem. I don't think anyone is going to get bent out of shape over some silly "Why weren't list-insiders told first!" status game. > I apologize to the list about the PR sensationalism, I'm really just > here as a deeply interested and passionate individual trying to > contribute what I can since I share the vision. Just checking, some of the news reports say "Miller will serve as technical lead of the open-source search project". Not that I have a problem with that (quite the opposite), just asking. That implies some sort of formal decision-making role (hopefully with Wikia salary and equity to make up for the cat-herding and Pointy-Haired-Boss hassle :-)). > I do have a bunch of ideas/discussions that, like everyone should, > I'll be sending to the list and putting on the wiki as I find time. > If it isn't obvious, one of the areas I'll personally be coding and > developing is around an open protocol and how it can play what I > think is a very cool role in building a search technology community. > For those that noticed my post here in Jan, I've been working on > ideas for the protocol for some time now. > > Anyway, cheers all! Ah, this one: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/2007-January/000058.html Sounds like it'll be fascinating reading. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From nitin at borwankar.com Tue May 1 17:46:12 2007 From: nitin at borwankar.com (Nitin Borwankar) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 23:16:12 +0530 Subject: [Search-l] Smurf - towards an architecture for participation in search In-Reply-To: <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> Message-ID: <46377CE4.4040708@borwankar.com> Hi Jer, Jimmy, Have been lurking on this list for a while but have separately spoken to Jimmy and Jer about similar ideas. Here's a first cut at describing an architecture of participation for search. If this is even mildly interesting I'd be glad to help develop it further. I am not attached to any of the ideas expressed below and am open to alternate approaches - anything that eventually will lead to better search, "built like the Internet was built". Am currently out of the counttry but will be back May 10th. -- Nitin Borwankar http://walruscarpenter.wordpress.com Of shoes and ships and sealing wax of cabbages and kings http://greener.com Find, Learn, Act .... Greener, the search engine for the planet http://tagschema.com Implementation of tag database applications nitin at borwankar.com 510-872-7066 ========= Smurf - Towards an architecture of participation in search ---------------------------------------------------------- Nitin Borwankar, El Sobrante, CA. Published under a Creative Commons (attribution, no other restrictions) License Summary: Semantic routing over an arbitrary collection of vertical search engines creates an architecture for harnessing collective intelligence in search. Architectural Motivation ------------------------- The evolution of the Internet has seen a continual tension between two opposing tendencies. One of them is the "telco model" of complexity at the core with simple edges i.e. telecom switch with telephones at the endpoints. The other is the native model of the Internet with simplicity at the core and complexity at the edge, i.e. a simple set of rules for routing packets with each router having local knowledge but no central authority. While this model has won the evolutionary struggle at the lower layers of the network, we seem to have to learn this lesson again and again at the upper application layers every few years. So it was with bulletin boards like Compuserve vs.the web. So it is with search. The current dominant model of search follows the "telco model" of a complex core (massive algorithm crunching compute farms) with simple endpoints - thin client browsers. The wave of architectural tension between the core and the edges now crashes on the beach of search. With this wave comes the movement of complexity to the edges, of simple routing rules at the core and free participatory interoperability without a central authority, in other words "search built just like the Internet was built", not like Compuserve was built. The status quo, an architecture of exclusion in search ------------------------------------------------------ The low rumble of the grumble of dissatisfaction with the quality of search has been steadily growing in volume. And with good cause. There is currently a dominant architecture for search on the Internet. It is a monolithic and closed one. It is not an architecture of participation. It provides no ability for users to enhance the content or quality of the index, nor to flexibly manipulate the search results via filtering and mixing with their own content. Aside from the search results themselves, the ability to associate advertising content with search results is also a closed and monolithic process allowing no publisher participation or control in the selection of ads appropriate to content. These undesirable characteristics of the dominant architecture appear to be vendor independent. All major search engines appear to have followed this architectural paradigm. This architecture has become, inadvertently or by design, an architecture of exclusion, of collective disempowerment and hence of stagnation in innovative energy. User roles of active participation ----------------------------------- This discussion proposes an alternate architecture - an architecture of participation - by which individual users may actively participate in the creation of a global search infrastructure in the spirit of participation and contribution engendered by Wikipedia. In this architecture we envisage users playing two major contributory roles. In the role of search providers they may independently index subsets of the web in semantic clusters (vertical search engines), and provide a "vertical search service" to the search infrastructure. In the role of search users they may provide dynamic feedback about the quality of search results. This dynamic feedback can be for two components of the result. One, the scoring of search results hence providing a collectively evolved page ranking system. Two, the scoring of search providers based on the subjective assessment of search result quality from that provider. An example motivating semantic routing -------------------------------------- Say a vertical search provider indexes a collection of documents/web pages related to the environment and declares to the world that these pages are represented, say, by the following set of keywords or "tag bundle" :- ecology, environment, green, eco-friendly, solar power, biodiesel, global warming by including them in the element of the OpenSearch Description Document for that search provider. (See OpenSearch.org and Open search at A9 for details on OpenSearch.) So, let's say I am searching for information on biodiesel. A friend of mine who knows about this particular green search engine will say "hey, go search on such and such search engine". This friend has matched my query, 'biodiesel', to that green search engine by mentally matching keywords in her head. This friend has played the role of a semantic router. The semantic router in our framework is an automated version of this matching process using some simple keyword representation and matching between query keywords and tag bundles. This matching process can start simple and iteratively evolve over time to involve more sophisticated semantic representations. Evolving an architecture of participation from first principles --------------------------------------------------------------- While there are a number of vertical search engines on the Internet, a framework for routing an arbitrary query to the right search engine, or the right set of search engines, is missing. Such a framework must needs be created in an open collaborative fashion. Closed collections of vertical search engines already exist and have not made much of a difference in the culture of participation (or complete lack thereof) in search. The mechanism that matches and then routes queries to search providers is what we call, for the purposes of this discussion, a "semantic router". This sounds a lot fancier than it currently is but leaves conceptual "room to grow" in future. The so-called semantic router is, in this proposal, a tag-matching engine which matches keywords in the query to tags provided by a vertical search provider. With a strong enough match, the query is routed to that provider. We will deliberately avoid defining the term "strong enough match" more precisely at this point. We avoid the term "tag based router" because this term already has a different meaning in network engineering. Moreover, the key idea is that there is some level of 'meaning' involved in the matching process. At first cut we use a crude 'tag bundle' approach. In future we may use different semantic representations for vertical search engines, so we don't want to "pour concrete" on the term "tag bundle" or "tag ..." anything. The key insight here is that a 'tag bundle' or a 'keyword bundle' roughly defines a context - i.e. a subject domain and hence an area to search over. In future we may use something else other than tag bundles to define this and something other than crude tag matching to do query routing. So we formalize all this talk roughly as follows :- A Semantic Routing Framework (SmRF or preferably Smurf) is proposed consisting of the following elements --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) A Vertical Search Provider (VSP) a web site that: ** operates a Vertical Search Engine (VSE), ** publishes search results e.g. via OpenSearch v 1.0 and ** provides the keyword set e.g. in the Tag element of the OpenSearch Description document. 2) A Semantic Router i.e a web based server that provides the following functions: ** an endpoint that accepts submissions of OpenSearch Description document (OSDD) URL's. A VSP submits an OpenSearch Description document via a POST operation to this URL endpoint. ** a facility that extracts the contents of the Tag element in the OSDD and associates the tag bundle with the VSE in an internal map (tag-bundle handler) ** a tag matching engine that takes the keywords in the query and does a best match against tag bundles of available VSE's (tag-matcher engine) ** a facility that collates the search results and may group by VSE and order by score, or present in some other format. ** a facility that captures user feedback in the form of clickthroughs and of thumbs up/down on links and VSE's 3) A Ranking engine for page rank and site rank ** A page-rank facility that maintains a dynamically updated score for each link, this score is used for sorting results, this score is generated by aggregated user feedback ** A site-rank facility that maintains a dynamically updated score for each site, this score is used for routing queries and sorting result sets, this score is generated by aggregated user feedback Issues to be resolved --------------------- a) most efficient scalable techniques for tag matching and routing b) using "related tags" for a site in addition to tags supplied in OpenSearch Description document c) feedback mechanisms and algorithms for page rank d) feedback mechanisms and algorithms for site rank e) update scores quasi-statically ? (every hour, day, week) While these are non-trivial issues, and should not be glossed over, these issues a)-e) are not the issues that have held up creating an architecture of participation in search. Moreover they have been tackled in other contexts and while it may be an exaggeration to say that they are "well understood", they are at least "well known" and "actively being worked on". Given sufficient participation in this or some similar effort these issues will become well understood. So we will not be ignoring them. There will be energetic participation in all of these. Wrapup ------ Well wishers are encouraged to widely disseminate these ideas. Naysayers are invited to actively and vigorously critique them. ---------- Why Smurf is different from .... A9 search aggregator -------------------- * in A9 aggregator a human being has to pick the sites that search needs to be directed to - this is a major show stopper JagTag ------ * Unclear how query is matched to engine * the UI in JagTag is multi step "Federated Search" ------------------ * More of a description rather than a concrete architecture or protocol * Smurf is semantic federated search From daniel at ktorn.com Tue May 1 18:46:28 2007 From: daniel at ktorn.com (Daniel Farinha) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:46:28 +0100 Subject: [Search-l] Simpy Chichimichi - "Wikia Search - Not Happening" In-Reply-To: References: <20070429142216.GA30198@sethf.com><815551.73706.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com><355a36af0704290929w522b362aqcf806253ae99aae0@mail.gmail.com><4635BF51.1000401@wikia.com> Message-ID: <0ef401c78c21$07b60fd0$6401a8c0@neuron> > > Is the arrival of Jeremie Miller the big announcement? > Could there be any bigger? This is huge. I must admit I'd missed Jeremie's initial post. With that kind of architecture in mind, and Jeremie directing the implementation, this project takes a whole new dimension. People who previously came here and didn't like what they saw (because they like project X instead of project Y, or programming language A instead of language B) should come back. This is no longer about one way of doing it. If no one else likes your idea, you can still contribute. Just like in Jabber. Very cool news indeed. Dan From dirson at gmail.com Tue May 1 18:55:28 2007 From: dirson at gmail.com (Dirson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:55:28 +0200 Subject: [Search-l] Simpy Chichimichi - "Wikia Search - Not Happening" In-Reply-To: <0ef401c78c21$07b60fd0$6401a8c0@neuron> References: <20070429142216.GA30198@sethf.com> <815551.73706.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <355a36af0704290929w522b362aqcf806253ae99aae0@mail.gmail.com> <4635BF51.1000401@wikia.com> <0ef401c78c21$07b60fd0$6401a8c0@neuron> Message-ID: XD Yep, it's bigger and it's a cool opportunity to create an open-source, collaborative and transparente search engine. I manage a blog devoted to Google and wanted to ensure it before launching the post :) It's to be very interesting to browse the algorithms you create to determine the relevancy of webpages within SERPs. On 5/1/07, Daniel Farinha wrote: > > > > Is the arrival of Jeremie Miller the big announcement? > > > > Could there be any bigger? This is huge. > > I must admit I'd missed Jeremie's initial post. > With that kind of architecture in mind, and Jeremie directing the > implementation, this project takes a whole new dimension. > > People who previously came here and didn't like what they saw (because they > like project X instead of project Y, or programming language A instead of > language B) should come back. This is no longer about one way of doing it. > If no one else likes your idea, you can still contribute. Just like in > Jabber. > > Very cool news indeed. > > Dan > > From aerik at thesylvans.com Tue May 1 18:59:50 2007 From: aerik at thesylvans.com (Aerik Sylvan) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:59:50 -0700 Subject: [Search-l] Fwd: Wikia Press Release on search project In-Reply-To: <355a36af0705011048w3bb8d704r20753e6d4efcb8ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> <20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com> <355a36af0705011048w3bb8d704r20753e6d4efcb8ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <355a36af0705011159o62c8afc0pc5f3f09b8ff4ed8b@mail.gmail.com> Jer, Cool! Glad to see you / this announcement. Even the bazaar development model needs leadership. > I do have a bunch of ideas/discussions that, like everyone should, > I'll be sending to the list and putting on the wiki as I find time. > If it isn't obvious, one of the areas I'll personally be coding and > developing is around an open protocol and how it can play what I > think is a very cool role in building a search technology community. > For those that noticed my post here in Jan, I've been working on > ideas for the protocol for some time now. I look forward to reading about your protocol. In the short term, can you share more detail about the scope and purpose? You made some statements in the Jan post that could be interpreted as allowing for the possibility of sharing different kind of search related data being passed to and from servers and/or clients. Perhaps some kind of very flexible indexing/searching API ? Perhaps in the vision that Jimmy has been hinting at, the search project can be semi-decentralized? He's mentioned finding partners in second tier engines - if the protocol supported sharing some of the data collection and analysis necessary to search, the load could be spread between wikia's servers and it's partners'. Abstracting in another direction, and given some of the brainstorming that's been done on this list, allowing for the possibilities of different kinds of data (not just certain predefined search functions/factors/data) will support the evolution and growth of the project. (What I'm thinking of is that we've discussed everything from "traditional" search algorithms, to wiki style directory entries, to tagging, to hybrids of those approaches) - so an protocol supporting an extensible api would be required to accommodate all that... (?) It's an exciting thought, and we'd love to hear more about your plans and vision! Aerik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070501/cab94875/attachment.html From sethf at sethf.com Tue May 1 23:04:47 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:04:47 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] watchmojo.com: Can For-Profit Search Be Too Open to Succeed? Message-ID: <20070501230447.GA28418@sethf.com> [Disclaimer - I didn't write this, it's not my work, the various views expressed aren't necessarily my own] http://www.watchmojo.com/web/blog/?p=1507 Can a For-Profit Search Engine Be Too Open and Transparent to Succeed? posted by froosh Last week when I got back from the Economics of Social Media (recap here), I said I would be making a couple of announcements this week pertaining to our company, Mojo Supreme. The announcements had to do with WatchMojo.com, our Web TV unit which has grown into a leader in the production and syndication of web video for broadband platforms. I'll be making those announcements later on this week. It's nothing earth-shattering, but it does validate what we've been saying all year since we launched January 23, 2006. Anyway, this post is not really an announcement, and it does not involve WatchMojo.com, but rather, our search unit MetaMojo.com. As readers of this blog know, we have developed a video meta search since, but our first foray was a vertical search network. Four months after announcing that he wanted to launch a Google-killer (here's our head-to-head-to-head comparison of the search engines, by the way), Wikipedia co-founder Jimbo Wales announced that Jabber Founder Jeremie Miller Joins Forces with Jimmy Wales to Build Open Search Platform. "Jeremie is a brilliant thinker and a natural fit to help revolutionize the world of search," Wikipedia and Wikia co-founder Jimmy Wales said in a statement. "I believe Internet search is currently broken, and the way to fix it is to build a community whose mission is to develop a search platform that is open and totally transparent." Between then and now, Wales has gotten everything from criticism, ridicule and encouragement to develop something that can enhance the search landscape. Of course, taking on Google is akin to having a death wish. When I launched our search products, I had a full-time job, it was a hobby, a personal exercise in playing with an API, which then grew into more. The focus is in our video content unit WatchMojo.com, but as that audience builds up, having a search within the network adds an interesting twist (much like having a matching community like StreetMojo.com). Since our audience is watching videos we produce, we decided to add a video metasearch. But since not everyone watches videos yet, we also have a vertical text-content based search tool that brings back contextual results from best of breed publishers. In fact, with Google accounting for 50% market share, and Yahoo!, MSFT, InterActive Corp.'s Ask and Time Warner's AOL locking up the top 5 search positions, search is both a risky and rewarding segment of online commerce and communications. Search is the hubris of the Web space: MSFT might die because of it (well, not really, but you know what I mean), Yahoo!'s Terry Semel might be fired over it, and Jimmy Wales might lose his credibility and hurt his Midas-esque track record by venturing in it. Anyway, over Christmas 2006, when Wales made his announcement, he indicated that he wanted to use the Nutch open source platform. Having built our own MetaMojo.com domain specific vertical search engine using Nutch, and naturally respecting Wales for what he's done, I reached out to him with a "good luck, by the way, we have already done a large component of what you wish to do... let me know if you want to collaborate." For the mojo and vision behind MetaMojo.com, click here. We focused on vertical search, then video meta search, this year we'll be focusing on personalization and social search. Anyway, Wales showed interest, then, and again this weekend when I followed up with him. He put me in touch with Jeremie, though asked that I not disclose it until the information was made public. I chatted with Jeremie yesterday and am glad that this is moving along, though I have no clue whether it will ever really take off. Why? Read on. What is Wales trying to do? According to a story on News.com: The Wikia project aims to develop a search engine, crawlers and other indexing tools through a collaborative, open-source process. Of course, Wikia's CEO Gil Penchina is right when he says that "smaller search companies that don't have the time or money to do everything required for a complete search service themselves" might be interested in what Wales' Wikia is trying to do, but let's not forget one fact: unlike Wikipedia.org, Wikia is a for-profit venture. In fact, as the same News.com story points out, "the complete business plan has yet to be worked out, but profits and revenue may be derived from advertising or services," according to Penchina. "The intellectual property behind Wikia, however, will be freely licensed under standard open-source mechanisms." That sounds great in principle, in practice, it might be what hinders the project. After all, as I have explained in depth, we intend on growing MetaMojo.com within the Mojo Supreme network. Like I say, imagine if MySpace had an in-house search unit, what would the value of Intermix been then? Sure, there's only one MySpace... but no one said we wanted to be MySpace either. Having seen Google become the most powerful entity in new media and technology on the strength of search IP, Wikia's main challenge is determining what is open and what is not. It's easier said than done. When the mailing list was made aware of Jeremie coming on board, he added: "one of the areas I'll personally be coding and developing is around an open protocol and how it can play what I think is a very cool role in building a search technology community. I spoke to him yesterday after Jimmy introduced me, I wish him luck and we'll see how and if we collaborate as we each try to improve the search ecosystem. But the fact remains, there are not that many open-source billionaires walking around, and there's a reason for that. In search in particular where distribution is everything and technology is secondary, one needs to be very clear on what the business strategy is and will be. For better or worse, Google had Yahoo! In other words, it's not the technology. And before academics, other search companies etc. will want to partner in building out equity for Wales' project, he will have to understand that Google envy will be his greatest challenge. We told you, search is the ultimate manifestation of hubris online. Upon our initial chat, we seemed to be on the same wave length if that means a collaboration, time will tell. Hey, it's all about transparency and openness, right? -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From peter.burden at gmail.com Tue May 1 23:21:59 2007 From: peter.burden at gmail.com (peter burden) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 00:21:59 +0100 Subject: [Search-l] Not just searching Message-ID: <4637CB97.5070006@gmail.com> Hello, Glad to see this list has woken up. I think there's more to a good search engine than indexing and ranking. It is also important to crawl a good representative set of pages. Writing a good crawler isn't as simple as it might seem. Are we going to crawl dynamic pages, break frame sets, get Ajax content, handle PDF, Power Point, MS Word etc., etc. What about detection of duplicate pages and alias hosts? What about links buried in Javascript? What about those dynamically generated calendars of the month's events, before you can blink the crawler has got to July 2344 ! There are many other traps for the unwary crawler writer. Will the crawler, which has to parse pages to find links, also put pages into a standard form for use by the indexer? What about content in different languages and character sets? Will the searcher distinguish Qu?bec from Quebec? These may seem tactical issues compared with some of the strategic ideas being mentioned but crawling parameters need to be considered - or users will be dissatisfied with poor coverage, dead links and duplication. From simon at pscomputer.co.uk Wed May 2 15:34:36 2007 From: simon at pscomputer.co.uk (Simon Capstick) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 15:34:36 +0000 Subject: [Search-l] Swicki Message-ID: <4638AF8C.3070901@pscomputer.co.uk> Is Swicki [1] a relevant technology? At least superficially it seems to match some of the Wikia project's goals. Simon [1] http://eurekster.com/products From KENNETH.EVANS at tccd.edu Wed May 2 17:11:43 2007 From: KENNETH.EVANS at tccd.edu (EVANS, KENNETH (WOODY)) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:11:43 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] Swicki In-Reply-To: <4638AF8C.3070901@pscomputer.co.uk> References: <4638AF8C.3070901@pscomputer.co.uk> Message-ID: <5318BFF5FF22A94DA94311D534716B4D45FAF4@netc021.ALL.DISTTCCD.NET> I've got some faith in the swicki idea... but they do take loads of work (or loads of people) to properly tend... This does indeed sound in-line with Wikia. Couple of sample swickis: http://sustainability--swicki.eurekster.com/spimes/ http://neopets-swicki.eurekster.com/ They do require constant care!! In case it's useful to anybody, I wrote about them here: 'Getting "Swicki" with It: Pruning Your Search Design' Woody Evans; _Searcher_; Nov/Dec 2006; pg. 59. 'Do swickis really enable users to return more relevant results? [A librarian] "kicks the tires" to find out if the components of these specialized engines are living up to expectation.' http://www.infotoday.com/searcher/nov06/index.shtml WE -----Original Message----- From: search-l-bounces at wikia.com [mailto:search-l-bounces at wikia.com] On Behalf Of Simon Capstick Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 10:35 AM To: search-l at wikia.com Subject: [Search-l] Swicki Is Swicki [1] a relevant technology? At least superficially it seems to match some of the Wikia project's goals. Simon [1] http://eurekster.com/products _______________________________________________ Search-l mailing list Search-l at wikia.com http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l From michele.drechsler at wanadoo.fr Wed May 2 19:16:48 2007 From: michele.drechsler at wanadoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?Q?mich=E8le_drechsler?=) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 21:16:48 +0200 Subject: [Search-l] Swicki References: <4638AF8C.3070901@pscomputer.co.uk> <5318BFF5FF22A94DA94311D534716B4D45FAF4@netc021.ALL.DISTTCCD.NET> Message-ID: <01af01c78cee$6e8789f0$0a01a8c0@michele> Hello, I have also built a search engine "swicki" for education in France. http://swicki-education-swicki.eurekster.com/ The idea of Swiki is a very good idea ( with tags... and collaboration aspects). I have not finished to explore this Web2.0 tool. I make a research with "folksonomie" and collaborative "Search engine" for the doctorat. I would like to test Yacy (OpenSource search engine) but I have difficulties for the installation. Are there other engines Open Source? That interest me. Is there an engine of the Swicki type in open source? Best regards Mich?le Drechsler (France) ----- Original Message ----- From: "EVANS, KENNETH (WOODY)" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [Search-l] Swicki > I've got some faith in the swicki idea... > but they do take loads of work (or loads of people) to properly tend... > This does indeed sound in-line with Wikia. > > Couple of sample swickis: > http://sustainability--swicki.eurekster.com/spimes/ > http://neopets-swicki.eurekster.com/ > > They do require constant care!! > > In case it's useful to anybody, I wrote about them here: > 'Getting "Swicki" with It: Pruning Your Search Design' > Woody Evans; _Searcher_; Nov/Dec 2006; pg. 59. > > 'Do swickis really enable users to return more relevant results? > [A librarian] "kicks the tires" to find out if the components of > these specialized engines are living up to expectation.' > http://www.infotoday.com/searcher/nov06/index.shtml > > WE > > > -----Original Message----- > From: search-l-bounces at wikia.com [mailto:search-l-bounces at wikia.com] On > Behalf Of Simon Capstick > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 10:35 AM > To: search-l at wikia.com > Subject: [Search-l] Swicki > > Is Swicki [1] a relevant technology? At least superficially it seems to > > match some of the Wikia project's goals. > > Simon > > [1] http://eurekster.com/products > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > From jeremie at jabber.org Thu May 3 00:12:30 2007 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 19:12:30 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] Simpy Chichimichi - "Wikia Search - Not Happening" In-Reply-To: <0ef401c78c21$07b60fd0$6401a8c0@neuron> References: <20070429142216.GA30198@sethf.com><815551.73706.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com><355a36af0704290929w522b362aqcf806253ae99aae0@mail.gmail.com><4635BF51.1000401@wikia.com> <0ef401c78c21$07b60fd0$6401a8c0@neuron> Message-ID: <7D60BF82-E59F-443F-B573-64F80EF76483@jabber.org> > Could there be any bigger? This is huge. *blush*, thanks, but I'd prefer to focus on the idea of a truly open community built and *better* search, not me or any individual/ company. The idea is huge, absolutely :) > I must admit I'd missed Jeremie's initial post. > With that kind of architecture in mind, and Jeremie directing the > implementation, this project takes a whole new dimension. > > People who previously came here and didn't like what they saw > (because they > like project X instead of project Y, or programming language A > instead of > language B) should come back. This is no longer about one way of > doing it. > If no one else likes your idea, you can still contribute. Just like in > Jabber. Yep, this goes beyond programming languages and even open source projects. When an open protocol is established it becomes the framework for everyone to participate and collaborate, across the common dividers. The Internet made computers more accessible, the Web made content more accessible, and with the right approach, we can make knowledge more accessible. Jer From jeremie at jabber.org Thu May 3 00:19:06 2007 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 19:19:06 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Press Release on search project In-Reply-To: <20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> <20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com> Message-ID: <5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> >> I apologize to the list about the PR sensationalism, I'm really just >> here as a deeply interested and passionate individual trying to >> contribute what I can since I share the vision. > > Just checking, some of the news reports say "Miller will serve > as technical lead of the open-source search project". Not that I have > a problem with that (quite the opposite), just asking. That implies > some sort of formal decision-making role (hopefully with Wikia salary > and equity to make up for the cat-herding and Pointy-Haired-Boss > hassle :-)). There's been a few crazy headlines, but one thing I want to make as clear as I did with Jabber: everything I do here is based on my personal belief that openness, complete transparency, is an absolute principle that must drive the future of search. Just as with communication technology, and I believe even more important in this case, it is far too dangerous for single commercial entities (Wikia included) to own and control these vital systems who's operations are tightly guarded. Open and interoperable search infrastructure is the key to a future where one of humankind's greatest creations isn't gated through corporations and black boxes. > Ah, this one: > > http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/2007-January/000058.html > > Sounds like it'll be fascinating reading. Right now it's a few old drafts, and a myriad of text files, stickies, and cells :-) I'm patient though, a good protocol, a simple and elegant one that will stand the test of time and fracturing forces, takes a very long time to evolve. Expect years, not months (for it to mature, not for my draft, heh). Jer From jeremie at jabber.org Thu May 3 00:43:10 2007 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 19:43:10 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] Swicki In-Reply-To: <4638AF8C.3070901@pscomputer.co.uk> References: <4638AF8C.3070901@pscomputer.co.uk> Message-ID: I love the idea of swiki, but I choked hard and fast: "Our patented swicki technology" - http://eurekster.com/about If they prove to be really useful, I'm pretty sure the important features will eventually evolve from many of the popular open source wiki projects though. Jer On May 2, 2007, at 10:34 AM, Simon Capstick wrote: > Is Swicki [1] a relevant technology? At least superficially it > seems to > match some of the Wikia project's goals. > > Simon > > [1] http://eurekster.com/products > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/ > options/search-l From sethf at sethf.com Thu May 3 02:35:57 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 22:35:57 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Press Release on search project In-Reply-To: <5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> <20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com> <5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> Message-ID: <20070503023557.GA7160@sethf.com> >> Just checking, some of the news reports say "Miller will serve >>as technical lead of the open-source search project". Not that I have >>a problem with that (quite the opposite), just asking. That implies some >>sort of formal decision-making role (hopefully with Wikia salary and >>equity to make up for the cat-herding and Pointy-Haired-Boss hassle :-)). > > On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 07:19:06PM -0500, jer wrote: > There's been a few crazy headlines, but one thing I want to make as > clear as I did with Jabber: everything I do here is based on my > personal belief that openness, complete transparency, is an absolute > principle that must drive the future of search. Of course. But it wasn't clear if you're a peer who was getting press because of marquee value, or a superordinate being modest. That's what I was trying to clarify. The news reports indicated that Wikia was delegating project authority to you: http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199202832 "He joined effective today," Wikia CEO Gil Penchina said Monday in an interview. "He is off to the races and drawing things on the whiteboard already." http://www.technewsworld.com/story/57183.html As for further project benchmarks, "those are Jeremie's calls now," he remarked. "I can tell you that we will start to see more communication among the developers -- we will start building out more project roadmaps." > I'm patient though, a good protocol, a simple and elegant one that > will stand the test of time and fracturing forces, takes a very long > time to evolve. Expect years, not months (for it to mature, not for > my draft, heh). Well, I'll keep my own counsel here until the draft is released. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From ic at thelastfrontier.com.au Thu May 3 03:26:48 2007 From: ic at thelastfrontier.com.au (Grahame Gould) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:26:48 +0800 Subject: [Search-l] Jimmy Wales appears on Oz Comedy program In-Reply-To: <20070503023557.GA7160@sethf.com> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com><3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org><20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com><5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> <20070503023557.GA7160@sethf.com> Message-ID: <3ADB1E55E4668048BF0A96E7828915F8971149@jabiru.SWEK.local> WARNING: there is some foul language and other potentially offensive concepts on the following broadcast. The Chaser are an Australia TV comedy show that lambast everything they can. One stunt they pull is to turn up to press conferences and ask questions with comedic intent. Congrats to Jimmy for performing admirably. Click on this link http://www.abc.net.au/tv/chaser/war/vodcast/ and navigate to Episode 06 in either WMV or MP4 format. You will have to watch the whole episode but Jimmy's on about 5 or 10 minutes in. And once again, I warn that some parts of the program may be offensive to some people. Grahame Gould Information Coordinator Shire of Wyndham East Kimberley Kununurra, WA, Australia (08) 9168 4100 Phone (08) 9168 1798 Fax www.thelastfrontier.com.au From peter.burden at gmail.com Tue May 1 23:02:22 2007 From: peter.burden at gmail.com (peter burden) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 00:02:22 +0100 Subject: [Search-l] I'm awake too... plus, an idea In-Reply-To: <8b356f880705010645q706345a6q50f9fd5c6c3399f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <355a36af0704301003u59350706v4b75766edc07809a@mail.gmail.com> <8b356f880705010645q706345a6q50f9fd5c6c3399f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4637C6FE.7090503@gmail.com> Stavros Macrakis wrote: > On 4/30/07, *Ed Whittaker* > wrote: > > ...there would be no reason to select only one algorithm > necessarily or evolve only one. You could use *all* your > algorithms up to that point and perhaps use the verdicts on each > of them to weight the contribution from each algorithm. > > > That is what all the major search engines do these days. Though > everyone has heard of PageRank, HITS/ExpertRank, TrustRank, etc., the > elegant published algorithms are just one part of ranking. I think the idea would be, perhaps, to allow users to select (either explicitly or implicitly) their own combination of weights. > > You might want to read: > > An interview with Apostolos Gerasoulis (scientist) and Jim Lanzone > (VP) of Ask: > http://www.e-marketing-news.co.uk/Feb05/apostolos.html > > > Beyond PageRank, by three Microsoft/MSN researchers: > http://www2006.org/programme/files/xhtml/3101/p3101-Richardson.html > > Good reading, > > -s > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l From vprajan at gmail.com Thu May 3 18:48:57 2007 From: vprajan at gmail.com (Pushparajan V) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 00:18:57 +0530 Subject: [Search-l] Using Grid Computing for Wikia Project Message-ID: Hi all, I am very much interested in contributing to the Wikia project, which is originating out of this mailing list. Recently joined this list and listening to some mails around. As the project seems to be in Planning and resource allocation stage, i guess this is the right time to bring in some technical discussions.. :). I got from archives that there are plans for using Nutch and Lucene. Very good idea. But i am just wondering why there are worries from JW on resources...!!.. We can create a distributed and chained resources with the help of Grid computing. Whoever ready to contribute to the project just need to run a client which expands the resources day-by-day. I guess there are no plans for investing on data centers. If there are, we can just reduce the investment by using this wonderful technology. i am ready to give some detailed deployment plans if my idea is suiting the wikia project. Eagerly waiting for some reply mails. Thanks, Pushparajan V -- Pushparajan V http://www.vprajan.org - - - - - - - - Know me: http://www.hackerkey.com/decrypt.php?hackerkey=v4sw57BCHJUY$hw3/5ln2pr6AFOPSck3ma4u7FLMSw7DTWXm6l6FGIKLRSU$i862NLJ0CAe6$t3b4en4a23Ns3MSr9g5AGO - - - - - - - - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070504/6484c53b/attachment.html From sethf at sethf.com Fri May 4 20:17:44 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:17:44 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] _Guardian_ - "Wikipedia takes on the world" (Wikia search) Message-ID: <20070504201744.GA26009@sethf.com> [Disclaimer - He said it, not me!] http://business.guardian.co.uk/onamerica/story/0,,2072597,00.html Wikipedia takes on the world Jimbo Wales thinks that professional journalism still has a place on the web Andrew Clark in New York Friday May 4, 2007 Guardian Unlimited Jimbo Wales: 'If you compare the quality of search products - Google, Yahoo! and Ask - they're very similar'. Slim, bearded and slightly fidgety, the Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales is known as the "god king" to his online followers. He seems to quite enjoy the adulation. "I'm not really such a businessman - I'm a revolutionary trying to destroy an entire industry," he declared at a talk in New York this week, before hastily adding: "I'm joking, of course." Since its creation six years ago, Wales' online encyclopedia has become an internet sensation. It is one of the 15 most visited websites worldwide and has 7m entries in 251 languages. The simple idea behind the site is that any visitor can edit, or extend, Wikipedia's entries and the ultimate outcome will be a gravitation towards accuracy. It works, albeit with the odd flaw: recently, wags kept altering the entry on Kazakhstan to say that the nation was ruled by Borat. Irrespective of the glitches, Wales reckons Wikipedia's democratic, free access, principle is central to the internet's culture. He is working on a new project - Wikia - which is intended to challenge the online establishment and will be properly up and running by the end of the year. Wikia is a hosting site for online communities to read, discuss and share information. It is intended to be a more leisurely, magazine-style format to complement the reference material on Wikipedia. Central to his plan is the creation of a "democratic" search engine - Wiki Search - in which users will collaborate to produce good quality results. Wales, the 40-year-old son of a grocery manager from Alabama, reckons the internet needs an alternative to the like of Google and Yahoo!. "If you compare the quality of search products - Google, Yahoo! and Ask - they're very similar," he told reporters at New York's Foreign Press Centre this week. "No one has clear leadership. Five years ago this wasn't the case but the production of good quality search results is getting very close to being a commodity - any mid-size company can do it." His idea is for the results of any search to be controlled by a broad community of sensible people without any commercial interests. As he puts it, "thoughtful people coming together and developing 'compromise' results". A search for a hotel in a particular city, for example, could then throw up genuine recommendations of promising places to stay rather than the glut of accommodation booking services delivered by Google. It sounds a good idea - but can it work? Open source The code behind Wiki searches, he says, will be open and available for others to copy - along the lines of the co-operatively developed web browser Firefox, which is available for free tinkering and download. Firefox is a big success - according to research firm NetApplications, it has snatched a global market share of 15% from establishment rivals such as Internet Explorer since its creation in 2004. A big difference between Wikia and not-for-profit Wikipedia is that Wales wants to make money out of his new project. Wikia has venture capital funding and has attracted an investment from the online bookseller Amazon. He is a little vague about exactly what his business plan is, except that revenue will come from advertising. It is not entirely clear, however, just how many advertisers will be attracted to Wikia's own site if the search concept is freely lifted and copied on other sites widely around the web. Insistently, Wales professes his lack of business knowledge. When asked whether Google's $500-a-share stock price is over the top, he replies: "I have no idea or opinion on what Google's stock price is." As for the idea that he is snapping at the search giant's heels, he says: "It's just funny. Google's huge and enormous. I'm just me." This doesn't quite ring true. Wales used to work as a futures and options trader in Chicago. He has a master's degree in finance and worked towards a doctorate in the same subject - although he never completed a dissertation. Indeed, Wales' suggestion that Wikia is "just me" is a bit misleading - he already has 33 full-time employees and is opening a programming centre with 15 people in low-cost Poland. Nevertheless, the project is just a start, he hints broadly. "There's a major movement just beginning to get underway - the democratisation of media, the democratisation of knowledge. I believe people can collaborate together freely and produce very, very good quality work - I want to push that forward." The establishment shouldn't worry too much. He is friendly with Google's founders and says he admires their work. And he doesn't see democratisation as wiping out the professional world - newspapers, he points out, cannot entirely be replaced by casual bloggers. "Everybody tells jokes," says Wales. "But we still need professional comedians." -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From sethf at sethf.com Sun May 6 20:24:04 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 16:24:04 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] _Forbes_ - Andrew Keen - Down With Internet Democracy Message-ID: <20070506202404.GA23952@sethf.com> [Disclaimer - Forwarding this article segment should not be taken as unconditional endorsement. In fact, I have been critical of its author in general in terms of writing going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket pandering] http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:eJkP3xZto-YJ:members.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0521/038.html On My Mind Down With Internet Democracy Andrew Keen 05.21.07, 12:00 AM ET Why you don't want anonymous volunteers powering your search engine. [...] If, like me, you believe that Wikipedia has spawned a mountain of unreliable, unprofessional and often corrupt so-called knowledge, then Wales' radical new search venture is of deep concern. According to Wales, search is "broken." It lacks "freedom," "community," "accountability" and "transparency." He argues that Google can be gamed by spammers, marketers and other Internet cheats who have learned to outwit the algorithms, thereby earning their products or services inappropriately high rankings. So Wales' solution is to staff Wikia Search with unpaid programmers who will develop algorithms that can sniff out the spammers and challenge the cheats. What will Wikia Search be like? I fear it will resemble Wikipedia. Rather than gang up against the gamers, it will compound the corruption by giving search-engine editorial power to anonymous volunteers. This is exactly what has damaged Wikipedia's reputation as a people-powered encyclopedia. How many supposedly altruistic programmers will really be in the pay of Wal-Mart (nyse: WMT - news - people ) or al Qaeda or the millions of other organizations that could be tempted to pay to have their products and services better positioned? [...] If you want to supplement artificial intelligence with real human intelligence, you need to reward the real humans with real money in exchange for their services. Because real people have real mortgages to pay off and real families to feed. A genuinely people-powered search service should, therefore, employ and pay a professional staff to check the accuracy of its entries. Traditional media have a word for these gatekeepers. They are called editors. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Sun May 6 20:43:20 2007 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 21:43:20 +0100 Subject: [Search-l] _Forbes_ - Andrew Keen - Down With Internet Democracy In-Reply-To: <20070506202404.GA23952@sethf.com> References: <20070506202404.GA23952@sethf.com> Message-ID: <3263b11b0705061343g493d428frbf5ab44e36249d8a@mail.gmail.com> I think this same person was talking on BBC Radio 4 this morning and he makes me angry. Even if you dismiss wikipedia (which I think you'd be crazy to do!), there are clear practical examples of this model working: GNU/Linux and every other piece of successful free/open source software. Jon On 06/05/07, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > [Disclaimer - Forwarding this article segment should not be taken as > unconditional endorsement. In fact, I have been critical of its author > in general in terms of writing going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket pandering] > > http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:eJkP3xZto-YJ:members.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0521/038.html > > On My Mind > Down With Internet Democracy Andrew Keen 05.21.07, 12:00 AM ET > > Why you don't want anonymous volunteers powering your search engine. > > [...] > > If, like me, you believe that Wikipedia has spawned a mountain of > unreliable, unprofessional and often corrupt so-called knowledge, then > Wales' radical new search venture is of deep concern. > > According to Wales, search is "broken." It lacks "freedom," > "community," "accountability" and "transparency." He argues that > Google can be gamed by spammers, marketers and other Internet cheats > who have learned to outwit the algorithms, thereby earning their > products or services inappropriately high rankings. So Wales' solution > is to staff Wikia Search with unpaid programmers who will develop > algorithms that can sniff out the spammers and challenge the cheats. > > What will Wikia Search be like? I fear it will resemble > Wikipedia. Rather than gang up against the gamers, it will compound > the corruption by giving search-engine editorial power to anonymous > volunteers. This is exactly what has damaged Wikipedia's reputation as > a people-powered encyclopedia. How many supposedly altruistic > programmers will really be in the pay of Wal-Mart (nyse: WMT - news - > people ) or al Qaeda or the millions of other organizations that could > be tempted to pay to have their products and services better positioned? > > [...] > > If you want to supplement artificial intelligence with real human > intelligence, you need to reward the real humans with real money in > exchange for their services. Because real people have real mortgages > to pay off and real families to feed. A genuinely people-powered > search service should, therefore, employ and pay a professional staff > to check the accuracy of its entries. Traditional media have a word > for these gatekeepers. They are called editors. > > -- > Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ > Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ > Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > From lashercorson at gmail.com Sun May 6 20:52:21 2007 From: lashercorson at gmail.com (L. Asher Corson) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 16:52:21 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] _Forbes_ - Andrew Keen - Down With Internet Democracy In-Reply-To: <3263b11b0705061343g493d428frbf5ab44e36249d8a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070506202404.GA23952@sethf.com> <3263b11b0705061343g493d428frbf5ab44e36249d8a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8f2b9bf40705061352p5f55030eq2cdf42e2b74872a@mail.gmail.com> Seth: you really lost me this time. I thought the debate about whether or not Wikipedia is accurate was settled a long time ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4530930.stm Asher On 5/6/07, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > > I think this same person was talking on BBC Radio 4 this morning and > he makes me angry. Even if you dismiss wikipedia (which I think you'd > be crazy to do!), there are clear practical examples of this model > working: GNU/Linux and every other piece of successful free/open > source software. > > Jon > > On 06/05/07, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > [Disclaimer - Forwarding this article segment should not be taken as > > unconditional endorsement. In fact, I have been critical of its author > > in general in terms of writing going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket pandering] > > > > > http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:eJkP3xZto-YJ:members.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0521/038.html > > > > On My Mind > > Down With Internet Democracy Andrew Keen 05.21.07, 12:00 AM ET > > > > Why you don't want anonymous volunteers powering your search engine. > > > > [...] > > > > If, like me, you believe that Wikipedia has spawned a mountain of > > unreliable, unprofessional and often corrupt so-called knowledge, then > > Wales' radical new search venture is of deep concern. > > > > According to Wales, search is "broken." It lacks "freedom," > > "community," "accountability" and "transparency." He argues that > > Google can be gamed by spammers, marketers and other Internet cheats > > who have learned to outwit the algorithms, thereby earning their > > products or services inappropriately high rankings. So Wales' solution > > is to staff Wikia Search with unpaid programmers who will develop > > algorithms that can sniff out the spammers and challenge the cheats. > > > > What will Wikia Search be like? I fear it will resemble > > Wikipedia. Rather than gang up against the gamers, it will compound > > the corruption by giving search-engine editorial power to anonymous > > volunteers. This is exactly what has damaged Wikipedia's reputation as > > a people-powered encyclopedia. How many supposedly altruistic > > programmers will really be in the pay of Wal-Mart (nyse: WMT - news - > > people ) or al Qaeda or the millions of other organizations that could > > be tempted to pay to have their products and services better positioned? > > > > [...] > > > > If you want to supplement artificial intelligence with real human > > intelligence, you need to reward the real humans with real money in > > exchange for their services. Because real people have real mortgages > > to pay off and real families to feed. A genuinely people-powered > > search service should, therefore, employ and pay a professional staff > > to check the accuracy of its entries. Traditional media have a word > > for these gatekeepers. They are called editors. > > > > -- > > Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ > > Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ > > Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php > > _______________________________________________ > > Search-l mailing list > > Search-l at wikia.com > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > > Change options or unsubscribe: > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070506/2350520b/attachment.html From sethf at sethf.com Sun May 6 21:30:36 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:30:36 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] _Forbes_ - Andrew Keen - Down With Internet Democracy In-Reply-To: <8f2b9bf40705061352p5f55030eq2cdf42e2b74872a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070506202404.GA23952@sethf.com> <3263b11b0705061343g493d428frbf5ab44e36249d8a@mail.gmail.com> <8f2b9bf40705061352p5f55030eq2cdf42e2b74872a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070506213036.GA24605@sethf.com> On Sun, May 06, 2007 at 04:52:21PM -0400, L. Asher Corson wrote: > Seth: you really lost me this time. "[Disclaimer - Forwarding this article segment should not be taken as unconditional endorsement. In fact, I have been critical of its author in general in terms of writing going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket pandering]" My own view of Andrew Keen is that he writes by-the-numbers conservative columns. But I thought it was pretty amusing to see someone suggesting there would be sleeper-cell type programmers involved in the project. That's not an opinion you see every day. It's interesting to see his particular faction's viewpoint. > I thought the debate about whether or > not Wikipedia is accurate was settled a long time ago: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4530930.stm Not quite: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/23/britannica_wikipedia_nature_study/ -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From chrisdesouza at yahoo.com Mon May 7 02:44:02 2007 From: chrisdesouza at yahoo.com (Chris Desouza) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Search-l] _Forbes_ - Andrew Keen - Down With Internet Democracy In-Reply-To: <8f2b9bf40705061352p5f55030eq2cdf42e2b74872a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <10927.77168.qm@web54109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Guys, how about a cup of coffee sharing among us all? http://www.canyouplease.com Perhaps, we can be of more useful discussion and extend a hand of friendship. Cheers! Chris "L. Asher Corson" wrote: Seth: you really lost me this time. I thought the debate about whether or not Wikipedia is accurate was settled a long time ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4530930.stm Asher On 5/6/07, Jonathan Roberts wrote: I think this same person was talking on BBC Radio 4 this morning and he makes me angry. Even if you dismiss wikipedia (which I think you'd be crazy to do!), there are clear practical examples of this model working: GNU/Linux and every other piece of successful free/open source software. Jon On 06/05/07, Seth Finkelstein < sethf at sethf.com> wrote: > [Disclaimer - Forwarding this article segment should not be taken as > unconditional endorsement. In fact, I have been critical of its author > in general in terms of writing going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket pandering] > > http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:eJkP3xZto-YJ:members.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0521/038.html > > On My Mind > Down With Internet Democracy Andrew Keen 05.21.07, 12:00 AM ET > > Why you don't want anonymous volunteers powering your search engine. > > [...] > > If, like me, you believe that Wikipedia has spawned a mountain of > unreliable, unprofessional and often corrupt so-called knowledge, then > Wales' radical new search venture is of deep concern. > > According to Wales, search is "broken." It lacks "freedom," > "community," "accountability" and "transparency." He argues that > Google can be gamed by spammers, marketers and other Internet cheats > who have learned to outwit the algorithms, thereby earning their > products or services inappropriately high rankings. So Wales' solution > is to staff Wikia Search with unpaid programmers who will develop > algorithms that can sniff out the spammers and challenge the cheats. > > What will Wikia Search be like? I fear it will resemble > Wikipedia. Rather than gang up against the gamers, it will compound > the corruption by giving search-engine editorial power to anonymous > volunteers. This is exactly what has damaged Wikipedia's reputation as > a people-powered encyclopedia. How many supposedly altruistic > programmers will really be in the pay of Wal-Mart (nyse: WMT - news - > people ) or al Qaeda or the millions of other organizations that could > be tempted to pay to have their products and services better positioned? > > [...] > > If you want to supplement artificial intelligence with real human > intelligence, you need to reward the real humans with real money in > exchange for their services. Because real people have real mortgages > to pay off and real families to feed. A genuinely people-powered > search service should, therefore, employ and pay a professional staff > to check the accuracy of its entries. Traditional media have a word > for these gatekeepers. They are called editors. > > -- > Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ > Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ > Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > _______________________________________________ Search-l mailing list Search-l at wikia.com http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l _______________________________________________ Search-l mailing list Search-l at wikia.com http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l ----------------------------------------------------- Why are those young beautiful kids dying in war? Instead, Send these useless drug addicts there. Most people are conditioned to wait a maximum of 2 weeks to see results of their labor. Those people are the ones with a J.O.B Y would U want someone to do good for U more than U would want to do it yourself? Because the latter takes a lot of work. One cannot spell change in their lives by reading the past over and over again. - Chris The Buddha I, Chris Desouza is the Buddha. I am the know it all. I am the enlightened one. The person who says it can't be done shouldn't interrupt the person who is doing it.- from the wall of the Mountain Rose Cafe in Winter Park, Colorado. I don't want to be successful. No one can take credit for it. (Me said that!) I'd rather be poor than dishonest. (Me said that too!) ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070506/14d828e7/attachment.html From chrisdesouza at yahoo.com Mon May 7 02:44:33 2007 From: chrisdesouza at yahoo.com (Chris Desouza) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Search-l] _May we all share a cup of coffee???? In-Reply-To: <8f2b9bf40705061352p5f55030eq2cdf42e2b74872a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <880611.36431.qm@web54112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Guys, how about a cup of coffee sharing among us all? http://www.canyouplease.com Perhaps, we can be of more useful discussion and extend a hand of friendship. Cheers! Chris "L. Asher Corson" wrote: Seth: you really lost me this time. I thought the debate about whether or not Wikipedia is accurate was settled a long time ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4530930.stm Asher On 5/6/07, Jonathan Roberts wrote: I think this same person was talking on BBC Radio 4 this morning and he makes me angry. Even if you dismiss wikipedia (which I think you'd be crazy to do!), there are clear practical examples of this model working: GNU/Linux and every other piece of successful free/open source software. Jon On 06/05/07, Seth Finkelstein < sethf at sethf.com> wrote: > [Disclaimer - Forwarding this article segment should not be taken as > unconditional endorsement. In fact, I have been critical of its author > in general in terms of writing going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket pandering] > > http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:eJkP3xZto-YJ:members.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0521/038.html > > On My Mind > Down With Internet Democracy Andrew Keen 05.21.07, 12:00 AM ET > > Why you don't want anonymous volunteers powering your search engine. > > [...] > > If, like me, you believe that Wikipedia has spawned a mountain of > unreliable, unprofessional and often corrupt so-called knowledge, then > Wales' radical new search venture is of deep concern. > > According to Wales, search is "broken." It lacks "freedom," > "community," "accountability" and "transparency." He argues that > Google can be gamed by spammers, marketers and other Internet cheats > who have learned to outwit the algorithms, thereby earning their > products or services inappropriately high rankings. So Wales' solution > is to staff Wikia Search with unpaid programmers who will develop > algorithms that can sniff out the spammers and challenge the cheats. > > What will Wikia Search be like? I fear it will resemble > Wikipedia. Rather than gang up against the gamers, it will compound > the corruption by giving search-engine editorial power to anonymous > volunteers. This is exactly what has damaged Wikipedia's reputation as > a people-powered encyclopedia. How many supposedly altruistic > programmers will really be in the pay of Wal-Mart (nyse: WMT - news - > people ) or al Qaeda or the millions of other organizations that could > be tempted to pay to have their products and services better positioned? > > [...] > > If you want to supplement artificial intelligence with real human > intelligence, you need to reward the real humans with real money in > exchange for their services. Because real people have real mortgages > to pay off and real families to feed. A genuinely people-powered > search service should, therefore, employ and pay a professional staff > to check the accuracy of its entries. Traditional media have a word > for these gatekeepers. They are called editors. > > -- > Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ > Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ > Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > _______________________________________________ Search-l mailing list Search-l at wikia.com http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l _______________________________________________ Search-l mailing list Search-l at wikia.com http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l ----------------------------------------------------- Why are those young beautiful kids dying in war? Instead, Send these useless drug addicts there. Most people are conditioned to wait a maximum of 2 weeks to see results of their labor. Those people are the ones with a J.O.B Y would U want someone to do good for U more than U would want to do it yourself? Because the latter takes a lot of work. One cannot spell change in their lives by reading the past over and over again. - Chris The Buddha I, Chris Desouza is the Buddha. I am the know it all. I am the enlightened one. The person who says it can't be done shouldn't interrupt the person who is doing it.- from the wall of the Mountain Rose Cafe in Winter Park, Colorado. I don't want to be successful. No one can take credit for it. (Me said that!) I'd rather be poor than dishonest. (Me said that too!) ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070506/18a96eb1/attachment.html From jeremie at jabber.org Mon May 7 06:37:16 2007 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 01:37:16 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Press Release on search project In-Reply-To: <20070503023557.GA7160@sethf.com> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> <20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com> <5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> <20070503023557.GA7160@sethf.com> Message-ID: First, apologize about the delayed response, I'm only now really getting my inbox under control :) > Of course. But it wasn't clear if you're a peer who was > getting press because of marquee value, or a superordinate being > modest. That's what I was trying to clarify. I hope I wouldn't have to choose, I'm not sure I prefer either option, nor are either of them really very useful for getting things done. > The news reports > indicated that Wikia was delegating project authority to you: For the resources Wikia is contributing yes, I hope they'll trust my opinions (and requests). This "project" being an open community though there isn't really any authority other than those who are contributing, and for that I hope in time my actions will speak for themselves. > As for further project benchmarks, "those are Jeremie's calls now," he > remarked. "I can tell you that we will start to see more communication > among the developers -- we will start building out more project > roadmaps." I'll at least try to be an instigator, and I'm not sure about anyone else, but we could definitely use some more organization and planning... more on that in other threads this week ;-) Jer From jeremie at jabber.org Mon May 7 06:59:02 2007 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 01:59:02 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] twin principles, or what brings us together? Message-ID: <4C29B0C6-E068-42CF-AEE8-8E4D023EC1B5@jabber.org> One thing I've spent a lot of time trying to summarize is what is it that really brought us together, what defines this effort in the simplest way? Here's what I've come up with so far as my twin principles: Transparency - Openness in how the systems and algorithms operate, both in the form of open source licenses and open content + APIs. Collaboration - Everyone is able to contribute in some way (as individuals or entire organizations), strong social and community focus. We are a search community built on a shared belief in Transparency and Collaboration... I hope that rings true for everyone else here, it's what I personally believe in as the foundation for a better search. Jer From sethf at sethf.com Mon May 7 07:49:12 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 03:49:12 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Press Release on search project In-Reply-To: References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> <20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com> <5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> <20070503023557.GA7160@sethf.com> Message-ID: <20070507074912.GA6135@sethf.com> On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 01:37:16AM -0500, jer wrote: > First, apologize about the delayed response, I'm only now really > getting my inbox under control :) Completely understood :-) >> Of course. But it wasn't clear if you're a peer who was >> getting press because of marquee value, or a superordinate being >> modest. That's what I was trying to clarify. > > I hope I wouldn't have to choose, I'm not sure I prefer either option, > nor are either of them really very useful for getting things done. Unfortunately, it does make a difference. For example, if my jaded and cynical perspective comes to annoy you, as a superordinate you *can* throw me off the list, as a peer, you could not. Of course, of course, one would hope it would never come to that. However, the difference in ability to do so, *matters*. And if Wikia gives you a salary and/or equity (which again, is a good thing), please do not pretend that doesn't have an effect. >> The news reports indicated that Wikia was delegating project >> authority to you: > > For the resources Wikia is contributing yes, I hope they'll trust my > opinions (and requests). This "project" being an open community > though there isn't really any authority other than those who are > contributing, and for that I hope in time my actions will speak for > themselves. Someone has to go to the check-writers and say, we need X storage and Y bandwidth and Z cpu-power, etc. And it's almost always going to be more than they want to pay for. There's going to be competing proposals for those resources, and someone will have to make a decision on who gets priority. Just confirming, that's you. >>As for further project benchmarks, "those are Jeremie's calls now," he >>remarked. "I can tell you that we will start to see more communication >>among the developers -- we will start building out more project >>roadmaps." > > I'll at least try to be an instigator, and I'm not sure about anyone > else, but we could definitely use some more organization and > planning... more on that in other threads this week ;-) OK. I don't think much will happen until some solid resources are available, but I assume you're working on that issue. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From jeremie at jabber.org Mon May 7 08:17:58 2007 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 03:17:58 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Press Release on search project In-Reply-To: <20070507074912.GA6135@sethf.com> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> <20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com> <5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> <20070503023557.GA7160@sethf.com> <20070507074912.GA6135@sethf.com> Message-ID: <5205836B-BE95-47B8-B38E-DB9E62AA8F04@jabber.org> > OK. I don't think much will happen until some solid resources > are available, but I assume you're working on that issue. Ah-ha, the source of some mental disconnect here! This is entirely understandable and will take time to really sort out, but I believe it's "community" vs. "search engine". I'm of and for the former (foster community and OS projects, we're all peers), whereas many things tell only of the latter (buy servers run software, decisions and priorities), because it's easier to understand, but not the case. Solid resources? We've got a mailing list and a wiki, we're getting some donated hardware for some development hosting (cvs/svn, project sites, data repositories, etc), and we've got vision and passion, that's solid enough for me to make a difference :) I see our Gnome three-phase plan being 1. Collect community and open source technology 2. ? 3. Profit! *grin*. To be fair though, step 2 is really "grow an ecosystem of groups running the distributed and interoperable technologies" and 3 is we all win by having 10,000 search engines, all interoperable at multiple layers, and any search box can mash-up as desired. Jer From nathan at litepost.com Mon May 7 18:45:51 2007 From: nathan at litepost.com (Nathan Braun) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 11:45:51 -0700 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Press Release on search project In-Reply-To: <5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> <20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com> <5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> Message-ID: <49a251870705071145x24182360x95d136ff29cd487a@mail.gmail.com> On 5/2/07, jer wrote: > > > Open and interoperable search infrastructure is the key to a future > where one of humankind's greatest creations isn't gated through > corporations and black boxes. I totally agree! In fact, for a while now, I have begun to feel the same way about email - Why are we entrusting our most personal records to billion-dollar Search Corporations??! IMHO, email should also generally support and be run on an open, extensible infrastructure, as well - not gated in by Big Corps. & Black Boxes. So here is my modest proposal to this group at the present time: - I would seriously be willing to offer Litepost (a soon-to-be-released new open source email product) to Wikia, Wikipedia or another similar charitably benevolent organization as a new extensible "open webmail" platform (along the same lines as Thunderbird, but for the web) if there was/is genuine interest in such a project. (In fact, I was originally thinking of calling Litepost "wikimail," but I thought that could a) be potentially too confusing and b) possibly violate implicit trademarkage.) - Or is that/this proposal totally outside of the scope of this project? - It DOES seems interesting, if ironic, that all the major search companies (with the exception of No. 4 Ask.com) all have complimentary email services. I wonder if Wikia would potentially be interested in this endeavour? Or if it is indeed peripheral/parallel to what they are trying to accomplish? -etc. But please let me know if there is interest, or if there would be a more suitable place to pursue this project. Again, this is the first, last and only time I will even mention it here - and only because I wanted to gauge interest (if any). Warmest regards, Nathan Braun http://litepost.com PS Some VERY rough algebra: Wikipedia + Jabber + US = Wikia Wikipedia (open encycl) + Jabber (open IM) + Wikia (open search) + US = Litepost? (where's the standards-based open webmail???) or is this math too ambitious?? :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070507/df5e9b01/attachment.html From KENNETH.EVANS at tccd.edu Mon May 7 18:49:06 2007 From: KENNETH.EVANS at tccd.edu (EVANS, KENNETH (WOODY)) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 13:49:06 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Press Release on search project In-Reply-To: <49a251870705071145x24182360x95d136ff29cd487a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com><3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org><20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com><5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> <49a251870705071145x24182360x95d136ff29cd487a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5318BFF5FF22A94DA94311D534716B4D45FB17@netc021.ALL.DISTTCCD.NET> Let's hear more... How does an open source e-mail project work, and how do you integrate it with Search Wikia? And why Litepost rather than... Brand X? Woody ________________________________ From: search-l-bounces at wikia.com [mailto:search-l-bounces at wikia.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Braun Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 1:46 PM To: jer; search-l at wikia.com Subject: Re: [Search-l] Wikia Press Release on search project On 5/2/07, jer wrote: Open and interoperable search infrastructure is the key to a future where one of humankind's greatest creations isn't gated through corporations and black boxes. I totally agree! In fact, for a while now, I have begun to feel the same way about email - Why are we entrusting our most personal records to billion-dollar Search Corporations??! IMHO, email should also generally support and be run on an open, extensible infrastructure, as well - not gated in by Big Corps. & Black Boxes. So here is my modest proposal to this group at the present time: - I would seriously be willing to offer Litepost (a soon-to-be-released new open source email product) to Wikia, Wikipedia or another similar charitably benevolent organization as a new extensible "open webmail" platform (along the same lines as Thunderbird, but for the web) if there was/is genuine interest in such a project. (In fact, I was originally thinking of calling Litepost "wikimail," but I thought that could a) be potentially too confusing and b) possibly violate implicit trademarkage.) - Or is that/this proposal totally outside of the scope of this project? - It DOES seems interesting, if ironic, that all the major search companies (with the exception of No. 4 Ask.com ) all have complimentary email services. I wonder if Wikia would potentially be interested in this endeavour? Or if it is indeed peripheral/parallel to what they are trying to accomplish? -etc. But please let me know if there is interest, or if there would be a more suitable place to pursue this project. Again, this is the first, last and only time I will even mention it here - and only because I wanted to gauge interest (if any). Warmest regards, Nathan Braun http://litepost.com PS Some VERY rough algebra: Wikipedia + Jabber + US = Wikia Wikipedia (open encycl) + Jabber (open IM) + Wikia (open search) + US = Litepost? (where's the standards-based open webmail???) or is this math too ambitious?? :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070507/9ed95ae3/attachment.html From nathan at litepost.com Mon May 7 19:06:31 2007 From: nathan at litepost.com (Nathan Braun) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 12:06:31 -0700 Subject: [Search-l] Wikia Press Release on search project In-Reply-To: <5318BFF5FF22A94DA94311D534716B4D45FB17@netc021.ALL.DISTTCCD.NET> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> <20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com> <5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> <49a251870705071145x24182360x95d136ff29cd487a@mail.gmail.com> <5318BFF5FF22A94DA94311D534716B4D45FB17@netc021.ALL.DISTTCCD.NET> Message-ID: <49a251870705071206v6b387f24w46f76c12b5ea123d@mail.gmail.com> On 5/7/07, EVANS, KENNETH (WOODY) wrote: > > How does an open source e-mail project work, and how do you integrate it > with Search Wikia? > Exactly! That's what I came to this list for, to see. That's what I'm sort of wondering, if it is even a possibility - or something desirable, worth pursuing (under such a framework)? Do they even fit together? Or am I deluded in thinking so?? As for how the actual infrastructure and architecture of such a program would work, I assume would be facilitated by the following standard open source devices: - a mailing list - SVN repository (for versioning/source control) - some decent starting code (which we have) - and a Wiki, of course! as per my very initial preamble/start here: http://www.litepost.com/nathanized (not released yet, "for your eyes only") I am just thinking of it mainly as an "open source alternative to Gmail" -- for people who feel uncomfortable with Google (or another large company like that) handling all their private information. It would be ideal, of course, if such a project were sponsored/adopted/spun-off by Wikia, or another similar organization. And why Litepost rather than? Brand X? > It doesn't have to be Litepost, per se. I just have some decent code developed that I don't really know what I want to do with.... Also, I don't know of any really good open source emails... do you? (The only decent - although also unfinished - one I know of is Roundcube Webmail, and they're currently only IMAP-based: http://roundcube.net/ (Litepost is currently POP though, so we're naturally interested merging the two projects as well...) I really don't know if a 'wiki-based,' or wiki-affiliated email makes sense. That's just what I was attempting to gauge here - Wiki certainly espouses most of the ideals and principles (ie collaboration + transparency) we hope to aim for, I think. I am not 100% certain of the most appropriate avenue for us to take at this point in time, although I am certainly committed to open source ideals.. I think there would potentially be a definite and possibly wide market for an (versatile, flexible, open source and extensible) email platform though, I'm just not exactly sure how to go about it and pursue it properly. I was hoping that, out of anyone, this group might be able to point in me in some useful new direction(s). (I am certainly not interested in conventional marketing, branding, product-pitching, that kind of thing...) NB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/search-l/attachments/20070507/450df243/attachment.html From sethf at sethf.com Mon May 7 19:40:25 2007 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 15:40:25 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] "open source alternative to Gmail" In-Reply-To: <49a251870705071206v6b387f24w46f76c12b5ea123d@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> <20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com> <5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> <49a251870705071145x24182360x95d136ff29cd487a@mail.gmail.com> <5318BFF5FF22A94DA94311D534716B4D45FB17@netc021.ALL.DISTTCCD.NET> <49a251870705071206v6b387f24w46f76c12b5ea123d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070507194025.GA14125@sethf.com> On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 12:06:31PM -0700, Nathan Braun wrote: > That's what I'm sort of wondering, if it is even a possibility - or My off-the-cuff, Eeyorish, opinion: You don't want to run an email hosting service. You really don't. You might want to warm up by trying something easier, like drug-smuggling in Columbia, or being a bicycle messenger in Iraq. An email hosting hosting service is in a state of perpetual siege by spammers. To the point where it sometimes seems like the Internet has achieved sentience - and hates you. Entire regions of the Earth will have no contact with your server other than an unending attempt to reduce all mailboxes to collections of pump-and-dump frauds and "419" scams. I know you're not going to believe me. I know it's so easy to think it's not such a big stumbling block. But you should talk to some of the people who run commercial ISP's and deal with this, before proceeding. It might be enlightening as to the extent of the problem. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php From KENNETH.EVANS at tccd.edu Mon May 7 20:10:35 2007 From: KENNETH.EVANS at tccd.edu (EVANS, KENNETH (WOODY)) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 15:10:35 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] "open source alternative to Gmail" In-Reply-To: <20070507194025.GA14125@sethf.com> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com><3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org><20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com><5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org><49a251870705071145x24182360x95d136ff29cd487a@mail.gmail.com><5318BFF5FF22A94DA94311D534716B4D45FB17@netc021.ALL.DISTTCCD.NET><49a251870705071206v6b387f24w46f76c12b5ea123d@mail.gmail.com> <20070507194025.GA14125@sethf.com> Message-ID: <5318BFF5FF22A94DA94311D534716B4D45FB19@netc021.ALL.DISTTCCD.NET> "An email hosting hosting service is in a state of perpetual siege by spammers. To the point where it sometimes seems like the Internet has achieved sentience - and hates you." Sounds like a tasty challenge for the 'radical trust' set, to me... Woody Evans -----Original Message----- From: search-l-bounces at wikia.com [mailto:search-l-bounces at wikia.com] On Behalf Of Seth Finkelstein Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:40 PM To: Nathan Braun Cc: search-l at wikia.com Subject: Re: [Search-l] "open source alternative to Gmail" On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 12:06:31PM -0700, Nathan Braun wrote: > That's what I'm sort of wondering, if it is even a possibility - or My off-the-cuff, Eeyorish, opinion: You don't want to run an email hosting service. You really don't. You might want to warm up by trying something easier, like drug-smuggling in Columbia, or being a bicycle messenger in Iraq. An email hosting hosting service is in a state of perpetual siege by spammers. To the point where it sometimes seems like the Internet has achieved sentience - and hates you. Entire regions of the Earth will have no contact with your server other than an unending attempt to reduce all mailboxes to collections of pump-and-dump frauds and "419" scams. I know you're not going to believe me. I know it's so easy to think it's not such a big stumbling block. But you should talk to some of the people who run commercial ISP's and deal with this, before proceeding. It might be enlightening as to the extent of the problem. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php _______________________________________________ Search-l mailing list Search-l at wikia.com http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Mon May 7 20:29:29 2007 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 21:29:29 +0100 Subject: [Search-l] "open source alternative to Gmail" In-Reply-To: <5318BFF5FF22A94DA94311D534716B4D45FB19@netc021.ALL.DISTTCCD.NET> References: <20070501141114.GA25808@sethf.com> <3574AAC8-115D-4ABF-8F7C-25FC54A376DF@jabber.org> <20070501171944.GA26588@sethf.com> <5BA35EEF-AD68-48EE-9D06-413A7B900D41@jabber.org> <49a251870705071145x24182360x95d136ff29cd487a@mail.gmail.com> <5318BFF5FF22A94DA94311D534716B4D45FB17@netc021.ALL.DISTTCCD.NET> <49a251870705071206v6b387f24w46f76c12b5ea123d@mail.gmail.com> <20070507194025.GA14125@sethf.com> <5318BFF5FF22A94DA94311D534716B4D45FB19@netc021.ALL.DISTTCCD.NET> Message-ID: <3263b11b0705071329j65a017c7o10ff24d8fa788d12@mail.gmail.com> I'd been thinking about this recently; had in mind a "co-operative" business model: owned and run by the users. My thoughts would have been to go with roundcube, especially because of the advantages imap has over pop (in my view) but I'd be interested to see what your app was like. Problem with a co-operative is that it needs people to begin with! Maybe we could set up a list for this or something and see if we could generate some interest? Thoughts, Jon On 07/05/07, EVANS, KENNETH (WOODY) wrote: > > "An email hosting hosting service is in a state of perpetual > siege by spammers. To the point where it sometimes seems like the > Internet has achieved sentience - and hates you." > > Sounds like a tasty challenge for the 'radical trust' set, to me... > > > Woody Evans > > > -----Original Message----- > From: search-l-bounces at wikia.com [mailto:search-l-bounces at wikia.com] On > Behalf Of Seth Finkelstein > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:40 PM > To: Nathan Braun > Cc: search-l at wikia.com > Subject: Re: [Search-l] "open source alternative to Gmail" > > On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 12:06:31PM -0700, Nathan Braun wrote: > > That's what I'm sort of wondering, if it is even a possibility - or > > My off-the-cuff, Eeyorish, opinion: You don't want to run an > email hosting service. You really don't. You might want to warm up by > trying something easier, like drug-smuggling in Columbia, or being a > bicycle messenger in Iraq. > > An email hosting hosting service is in a state of perpetual > siege by spammers. To the point where it sometimes seems like the > Internet has achieved sentience - and hates you. Entire regions of the > Earth will have no contact with your server other than an unending > attempt to reduce all mailboxes to collections of pump-and-dump frauds > and "419" scams. > > I know you're not going to believe me. I know it's so easy to > think it's not such a big stumbling block. But you should talk to some > of the people who run commercial ISP's and deal with this, before > proceeding. It might be enlightening as to the extent of the problem. > > -- > Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com/ > Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ > Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l > From jeremie at jabber.org Mon May 7 21:34:11 2007 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 16:34:11 -0500 Subject: [Search-l] twin principles, or what brings us together? In-Reply-To: <4C29B0C6-E068-42CF-AEE8-8E4D023EC1B5@jabber.org> References: <4C29B0C6-E068-42CF-AEE8-8E4D023EC1B5@jabber.org> Message-ID: <09A70CCF-77D3-44E6-882C-C17F63563FA0@jabber.org> Nobody yet pointed out a completely glaring omission, the obvious one, and perhaps the most important unifying principle of the three now: Quality - Significantly improve the relevancy and accuracy of search results and the searching experience. Jer On May 7, 2007, at 1:59 AM, jer wrote: > One thing I've spent a lot of time trying to summarize is what is it > that really brought us together, what defines this effort in the > simplest way? > > Here's what I've come up with so far as my twin principles: > > Transparency - Openness in how the systems and algorithms operate, > both in the form of open source licenses and open content + APIs. > Collaboration - Everyone is able to contribute in some way (as > individuals or entire organizations), strong social and community > focus. > > We are a search community built on a shared belief in Transparency > and Collaboration... I hope that rings true for everyone else here, > it's what I personally believe in as the foundation for a better > search. > > Jer > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/ > options/search-l From al at blogmail.cc Mon May 7 21:13:10 2007 From: al at blogmail.cc (al at blogmail.cc) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:13:10 +0200 Subject: [Search-l] open source alternative to Gmail Message-ID: Hello, we also are working in a free and open source webmail. We are a community and we did 3 releases, now we are working in ver.0.7 Our community develops the software, makes documentation and gives free service for everybody. If you want, you also can access to manage our servers! Just talking in our mailing list (also developed by us). We release some of our e-mail content: based on free software ideology, sharing knowledge and the access to sources, BlogMail works with totally open publications, related among them and in mass of comentable electronic mails. We still in development, we are open to new developers. We are open to work together with others projects :) The project is BlogMail: http://en.blogxpopuli.org/index.php/Project_BlogMail Our community is BlogxPopuli: http://blogxpopuli.org You can download it: svn checkout http://svn.blogmail.cc/blogmail/trunk . or http://sourceforge.net/projects/blogmail/ regards Nathan Braun wrote: > On 5/2/07, *jer* > wrote: > > > Open and interoperable search infrastructure is the key to a future > where one of humankind\'s greatest creations isn\'t gated through > corporations and black boxes. > > > I totally agree! In fact, for a while now, I have begun to feel the > same way about email - > Why are we entrusting our most personal records to billion-dollar Search > Corporations??! > > IMHO, email should also generally support and be run on an open, > extensible infrastructure, as well - not gated in by Big Corps. & Black > Boxes. > > So here is my modest proposal to this group at the present time: > > - I would seriously be willing to offer Litepost (a soon-to-be-released > new open source email product) to Wikia, Wikipedia or another similar > charitably benevolent organization as a new extensible \"open webmail\" > platform (along the same lines as Thunderbird, but for the web) if there > was/is genuine interest in such a project. > (In fact, I was originally thinking of calling Litepost \"wikimail,\" but > I thought that could a) be potentially too confusing and b) possibly > violate implicit trademarkage.) > > - Or is that/this proposal totally outside of the scope of this project? > > - It DOES seems interesting, if ironic, that all the major search > companies (with the exception of No. 4 Ask.com ) all > have complimentary email services. I wonder if Wikia would potentially > be interested in this endeavour? Or if it is indeed peripheral/parallel > to what they are trying to accomplish? > > -etc. > > But please let me know if there is interest, or if there would be a more > suitable place to pursue this project. > > Again, this is the first, last and only time I will even mention it here > - and only because I wanted to gauge interest (if any). > > Warmest regards, > > Nathan Braun > http://litepost.com > > > PS Some VERY rough algebra: Wikipedia + Jabber + US = Wikia > Wikipedia (open encycl) + Jabber (open IM) + Wikia (open search) + US = > Litepost? (where\'s the standards-based open webmail???) > or is this math too ambitious?? :) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Search-l mailing list > Search-l at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/search-l > Change options or unsubscribe: http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/options/search-l From fcb at fredbenenson.com Mon May 7 21:50:31 2007 From: fcb at fredbenenson.com (Fred Benenson) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 17:50:31 -0400 Subject: [Search-l] twin principles, or what brings us together? In-Reply-To: <09A70CCF-77D3-44E6-882C-C17F63563FA0@jabber.org> References: <4C29B0C6-E068-42CF-AEE8-8E4D023EC1B5@jabber.org> <09A70CCF-77D3-44E6-882C-C17F63563FA0@jabber.org> Message-ID: <8e447b720705071450x5e79e315x46936fa902bdbf41@mail.gmail.com> Hi, First let me introduce myself -- my name's Fred. I'm a free culture activist, and student at ITP @ NYU. I brought Jimmy