[Search wiki] Miniarticle linking
Jean-Pol Martin
jpm at ldl.de
Sat Feb 2 16:58:06 UTC 2008
OK. Thank you for the explanations.
JPOL
searchwiki-request at wikia.com schrieb:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Miniarticle-Linking Is Awkward (Fred Bauder)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 10:54:34 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Fred Bauder" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> Subject: [Search wiki] Miniarticle-Linking Is Awkward
> To: <searchwiki at wikia.com>
> Message-ID:
> <65272.66.243.196.131.1201967674.squirrel at webx1.neonova.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> To make a link to say soap one must craft it thus, [[Mini:Soap|soap]].
> That is irritating and awkward to me, but incomprehensible to a first time
> user, as is the other frequent coding, {{k|soap}} which will search for
> soap. {{k}} is short for (and redirected to) Template:Keyword. Simplicity
> in coding is vital; [[subject]] and [external link] are what we should
> present to new users, see Mini:Keep It Simple Stupid
>
> Fred Bauder
>
>
>> Could somebody say to me why miniarticle-linking is awkward?
>> To the other point (mainspace): of course we should transfer the mini to
>> the main-namespace...
>> JPOL
>>
>> searchwiki-request at wikia.com schrieb:
>>> Send SearchWiki mailing list submissions to
>>> searchwiki at wikia.com
>>>
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>>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> searchwiki-request at wikia.com
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of SearchWiki digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace (Jimmy Wales) 2.
>>> Student motivation (Jean-Pol Martin)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 10:05:22 +0530
>>> From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace
>>> To: fredbaud at fairpoint.net, Search Wiki <searchwiki at wikia.com>
>>> Message-ID: <47A3F30A.8030403 at wikia.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>> Fred Bauder wrote:
>>>> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini articles
>>>> are awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make
>>>> internal linking more straightforward. There is also the question of
>>>> what the content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is
>>>> brief articles about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia
>>>> article. Another is adding significant material about disambiguation
>>>> of the term. Either alternative could occur in the mini or main
>>>> namespace. If the mini namespace is used in one of those ways, the
>>>> question remains of what the main namespace is is used for. I have
>>>> tentatively assumed the search namespace is for policy, the help
>>>> namespace is for help. If you are confused, the main namespace is an
>>>> article with nothing in front of it ([[Apple]] rather than
>>>> [[Mini:Apple]]).
>>> I have been in remote India with minimal net access for a few days so
>>> I might be way behind the times, but I agree with Fred completely.
>>> The mini articles need to be moved to the main namespace precisely to
>>> facilitate less awkward linking.
>>>
>>>> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at Forum:Main
>>>> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy
>>>> page at search:Main namespace
>>> Yay!
>>>
>>> --Jimbo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 11:24:33 +0100
>>> From: Jean-Pol Martin <jpm at ldl.de>
>>> Subject: [Search wiki] Student motivation
>>> To: searchwiki at wikia.com
>>> Message-ID: <47A444E1.2090908 at ldl.de>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>> "Very cool to hear, any ideas on what uses they find
>>> motivating/exciting?" - I'm the professor/teacher an I'm very
>>> motivated: I try to explain my students that they are changing the
>>> world and positioning themselves at the same time. Presenting oneself
>>> in the net ist absolute crucial fur the future and when my students
>>> are training creating relevant contents (miniarticle), they are
>>> working for the community AND for themselves (Profile-Sites)... As a
>>> researcher I was aware for 10 years that if y want to be "famous" I
>>> have to publish intensively in the net, not only in professional
>>> journals for teachers or researchers.
>>> I think the most exciting for the students is the Profile-Site with
>>> the many friends + the possibility to create article + the
>>> searchengine within one integrating frame.
>>>
>>> JPOL
>>>
>>>
>>> searchwiki-request at wikia.com schrieb:
>>>> Send SearchWiki mailing list submissions to
>>>> searchwiki at wikia.com
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>> searchwiki-request at wikia.com
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>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>> searchwiki-owner at wikia.com
>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of SearchWiki digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Re: SearchWiki Digest, Vol 1, Issue 9 (jer)
>>>> 2. Input wanted on Mini and main name spaces for Search Wikia
>>>> (Mark (Markie))
>>>> 3. Re: Forum:Main Namespace (Jimmy Wales)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 00:55:16 -0600
>>>> From: jer <jeremie at jabber.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] SearchWiki Digest, Vol 1, Issue 9
>>>> To: Search Wiki <searchwiki at wikia.com>
>>>> Message-ID: <3CDACD28-A236-4544-8161-6689323EF378 at jabber.org>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes;
>>>> format=flowed
>>>>
>>>> They definitely already are and will continue to be indexable by
>>>> Google or any other search, as well as are available under an open
>>>> content license for more direct re-use needs.
>>>>
>>>> Very cool to hear, any ideas on what uses they find
>>>> motivating/exciting?
>>>>
>>>> Jer
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 26, 2008, at 12:17 AM, Jean-Pol Martin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My students are very motivated to write Miniarticles. And this
>>>>> motivation ist important if we want to educate young people creating
>>>>> knowledge together worldwide. But if the miniarticle don't appear in
>>>>> searchengines like google, I'm afraid that they will not work
>>>>> furter on
>>>>> this project. Please, give the miniarticle free for google...
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeanpol
>>>>>
>>>>> searchwiki-request at wikia.com schrieb:
>>>>>> Send SearchWiki mailing list submissions to
>>>>>> searchwiki at wikia.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki
>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>>> searchwiki-request at wikia.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>>> searchwiki-owner at wikia.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of SearchWiki digest..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Re: Scale of Search wiki (jer)
>>>>>> 2. Re: Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace (jer)
>>>>>> 3. Re: Mini Articles and Use of the Main Namespace (jer)
>>>>>> 4. Re: Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace (Mark
>>>>>> (Markie)) 5. Re: Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace
>>>>>> (jer)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:50:02 -0600
>>>>>> From: jer <jeremie at jabber.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki
>>>>>> To: Search Wiki <searchwiki at wikia.com>
>>>>>> Message-ID: <59781F84-17EA-4650-87E8-E13A4995A30D at jabber.org>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
>>>>>> format=flowed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... [A lot of great commentary and feedback] ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some day, "search query" wikis such as the Wikia Search one will
>>>>>>> densely cover the fat middle. To me, the question is not if, but
>>>>>>> when, how many, and which ones. The race is on.
>>>>>> Although it's not present on the footers of the wiki yet (was lost
>>>>>> w/ the new skin apparently), the mini articles are all under an
>>>>>> open content license: http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia_copyrights.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:49:09 -0600
>>>>>> From: jer <jeremie at jabber.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main
>>>>>> Namespace To: fredbaud at fairpoint.net, Search Wiki
>>>>>> <searchwiki at wikia.com> Message-ID:
>>>>>> <199B81D5-89FF-4EF1-9847-3206408C35D4 at jabber.org> Content-Type:
>>>>>> text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini
>>>>>>>> articles are
>>>>>>>> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make
>>>>>>>> internal
>>>>>>>> linking more straightforward.
>>>>>> My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be in-
>>>>>> context, that you only see them in their search result. What
>>>>>> reasons are there to view them outside of that context?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is also the question of what the
>>>>>>>> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief
>>>>>>>> articles
>>>>>>>> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article.
>>>>>> If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but
>>>>>> when they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers
>>>>>> to the search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service
>>>>>> and not something that compliments one of the core functions of a
>>>>>> search result, to direct people somewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another is
>>>>>>>> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term.
>>>>>> Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the
>>>>>> currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and
>>>>>> "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always
>>>>>> harder with algorithmic approaches.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the
>>>>>> best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support
>>>>>> this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a
>>>>>> problem to support that usage?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Either
>>>>>>>> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the
>>>>>>>> mini namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains
>>>>>>>> of what the
>>>>>>>> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the
>>>>>>>> search
>>>>>>>> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you
>>>>>>>> are confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in
>>>>>>>> front of it
>>>>>>>> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini
>>>>>>>> articles as
>>>>>>>> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main
>>>>>>>> namespace for
>>>>>>>> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions
>>>>>>>> regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to
>>>>>>>> get good
>>>>>>>> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user
>>>>>>>> base would
>>>>>>>> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although
>>>>>>>> I find
>>>>>>>> it enjoyable.
>>>>>> I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking that
>>>>>> it might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few
>>>>>> sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular
>>>>>> article on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are only
>>>>>> viewed, created, and edited in the search result page directly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound
>>>>>> reasonable?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at
>>>>>>>> Forum:Main Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally
>>>>>>>> advance a policy page
>>>>>>>> at search:Main namespace
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fred Bauder
>>>>>>> Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the
>>>>>>> "mini"
>>>>>>> content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for
>>>>>>> example
>>>>>>> in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would
>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>> be extracted on the fly. Would this work?
>>>>>>> 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation article
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides some
>>>>>>> disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep the
>>>>>>> bulk of
>>>>>>> links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way
>>>>>>> around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the
>>>>>>> large,
>>>>>>> detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis[ambiguation]"
>>>>>>> or "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/
>>>>>>> disambiguation"
>>>>>>> or "innocence (disambiguation)".
>>>>>>> My guess is that there will always be many more small articles
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space
>>>>>>> will make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit"
>>>>>>> links in parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links.
>>>>>>> Currently, they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to refer
>>>>>>> to the small articles. The namespace prefix would vanish,
>>>>>>> simplifying the links.
>>>>>>> --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and
>>>>>>> we could
>>>>>>> put policy in some other namespace such as policy.
>>>>>> If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search
>>>>>> result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so
>>>>>> the regular articles are in the regular namespace.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the
>>>>>> "Mini:" namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a
>>>>>> database of mini articles from any wiki on the web.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:50:45 -0600
>>>>>> From: jer <jeremie at jabber.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Articles and Use of the Main
>>>>>> Namespace
>>>>>> To: fredbaud at fairpoint.net, Search Wiki <searchwiki at wikia.com>
>>>>>> Message-ID: <496F37F0-515B-4E91-8690-8BA6B6EB7913 at jabber.org>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
>>>>>> format=flowed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why don't we keep this discussion on
>>>>>>>> http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Main_Namespace ? Regarding
>>>>>>>> the distinction between "mini" and "maxi" content, I sort of
>>>>>>>> replied there.
>>>>>>> Because I was asked to post the issue here, which make sense as
>>>>>>> conversation about fundamental policies affecting the structure
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> site needs to be where as many folks as possible can see it and
>>>>>>> participate.
>>>>>> That was me that asked, I've honestly not had enough attention to
>>>>>> additionally cover/track the forums on the wiki :(
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:59:54 +0000
>>>>>> From: "Mark (Markie)" <newsmarkie at googlemail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main
>>>>>> Namespace To: "Search Wiki" <searchwiki at wikia.com>
>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>> <a6424d870801251459h7ccd3d6ah5b9de175456ed90c at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> hmm what would be peoples thought of using wp content in the main
>>>>>> space,
>>>>>> which could either be local copies or dynamically called, with
>>>>>> local overwrite possible, so that we can have minis with "more
>>>>>> here" which then
>>>>>> links to pages which have either been specially adapted written
>>>>>> locally or
>>>>>> then just falls back onto wp (or should be just have a kinda "if
>>>>>> local
>>>>>> exists then use that, if not link directly to wp" thing)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thoughts
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2008 10:49 PM, jer <jeremie at jabber.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini
>>>>>>>>> articles are
>>>>>>>>> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make
>>>>>>>>> internal
>>>>>>>>> linking more straightforward.
>>>>>>> My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be
>>>>>>> in- context, that you only see them in their search result. What
>>>>>>> reasons
>>>>>>> are there to view them outside of that context?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is also the question of what the
>>>>>>>>> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief
>>>>>>>>> articles
>>>>>>>>> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article.
>>>>>>> If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers to
>>>>>>> the search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service and
>>>>>>> not something that compliments one of the core functions of a
>>>>>>> search result, to direct people somewhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Another is
>>>>>>>>> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term.
>>>>>>> Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the
>>>>>>> currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and
>>>>>>> "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always
>>>>>>> harder with algorithmic approaches.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the
>>>>>>> best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support
>>>>>>> this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a
>>>>>>> problem to support that usage?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Either
>>>>>>>>> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the
>>>>>>>>> mini namespace is used in one of those ways, the question
>>>>>>>>> remains of what the
>>>>>>>>> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the
>>>>>>>>> search
>>>>>>>>> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front
>>>>>>>>> of it
>>>>>>>>> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini
>>>>>>>>> articles as
>>>>>>>>> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main
>>>>>>>>> namespace for
>>>>>>>>> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including
>>>>>>>>> suggestions regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine
>>>>>>>>> searches to get good
>>>>>>>>> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user
>>>>>>>>> base would
>>>>>>>>> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although
>>>>>>>>> I find
>>>>>>>>> it enjoyable.
>>>>>>> I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking
>>>>>>> that it
>>>>>>> might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few
>>>>>>> sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular
>>>>>>> article on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are
>>>>>>> only viewed, created, and edited in the search result page
>>>>>>> directly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound
>>>>>>> reasonable?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at
>>>>>>>>> Forum:Main
>>>>>>>>> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a
>>>>>>>>> policy page
>>>>>>>>> at search:Main namespace
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fred Bauder
>>>>>>>> Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the
>>>>>>>> "mini"
>>>>>>>> content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for
>>>>>>>> example
>>>>>>>> in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would
>>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>>> be extracted on the fly. Would this work?
>>>>>>>> 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation
>>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides
>>>>>>>> some disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep
>>>>>>>> the bulk of
>>>>>>>> links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way
>>>>>>>> around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the
>>>>>>>> large,
>>>>>>>> detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis
>>>>>>>> [ambiguation]" or
>>>>>>>> "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/
>>>>>>>> disambiguation"
>>>>>>>> or "innocence (disambiguation)".
>>>>>>>> My guess is that there will always be many more small
>>>>>>>> articles
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space
>>>>>>>> will make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit"
>>>>>>>> links in parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links.
>>>>>>>> Currently, they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to
>>>>>>>> refer to the small
>>>>>>>> articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the
>>>>>>>> links.
>>>>>>>> --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and
>>>>>>>> we could
>>>>>>>> put policy in some other namespace such as policy.
>>>>>>> If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search
>>>>>>> result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so
>>>>>>> the regular articles are in the regular namespace.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the
>>>>>>> "Mini:" namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a
>>>>>>> database of mini articles from any wiki on the web.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Search wiki mailing list
>>>>>>> http://search.wikia.com/
>>>>>>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>> URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/
>>>>>> 20080125/dd1e081e/attachment-0001.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:14:45 -0600
>>>>>> From: jer <jeremie at jabber.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main
>>>>>> Namespace To: Search Wiki <searchwiki at wikia.com>
>>>>>> Message-ID: <2806B96B-085F-4563-AED5-EA8C95AE9F41 at jabber.org>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
>>>>>> format=flowed
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once we have wikipedia crawled/imported, it's flagged as a
>>>>>> whitelist so WP results should show up at the top of any search as
>>>>>> the first hit, for close or exact matching keywords.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could see integrating closely with WP's disambig pages, but the
>>>>>> bulk of the content should just be a normal search result, no need
>>>>>> to special case it is there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2008, at 4:59 PM, Mark (Markie) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hmm what would be peoples thought of using wp content in the main
>>>>>>> space, which could either be local copies or dynamically called,
>>>>>>> with local overwrite possible, so that we can have minis with
>>>>>>> "more here" which then links to pages which have either been
>>>>>>> specially adapted written locally or then just falls back onto wp
>>>>>>> (or should be just have a kinda "if local exists then use that, if
>>>>>>> not link directly to wp" thing)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thoughts
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mark
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2008 10:49 PM, jer <jeremie at jabber.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini
>>>>>>>>> articles are
>>>>>>>>> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make
>>>>>>>>> internal
>>>>>>>>> linking more straightforward.
>>>>>>> My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be
>>>>>>> in- context, that you only see them in their search result. What
>>>>>>> reasons
>>>>>>> are there to view them outside of that context?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is also the question of what the
>>>>>>>>> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief
>>>>>>>>> articles
>>>>>>>>> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article.
>>>>>>> If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers to
>>>>>>> the search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service and
>>>>>>> not something that compliments one of the core functions of a
>>>>>>> search result, to direct people somewhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Another is
>>>>>>>>> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term.
>>>>>>> Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the
>>>>>>> currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and
>>>>>>> "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always
>>>>>>> harder with algorithmic approaches.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the
>>>>>>> best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support
>>>>>>> this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a
>>>>>>> problem to support that usage?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Either
>>>>>>>>> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the
>>>>>>>>> mini namespace is used in one of those ways, the question
>>>>>>>>> remains of what the
>>>>>>>>> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the
>>>>>>> search
>>>>>>>>> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front
>>>>>>>>> of it
>>>>>>>>> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini
>>>>>>>>> articles as
>>>>>>>>> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main
>>>>>>>>> namespace for
>>>>>>>>> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including
>>>>>>>>> suggestions regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine
>>>>>>>>> searches to get good
>>>>>>>>> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user
>>>>>>>>> base would
>>>>>>>>> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although
>>>>>>>>> I find
>>>>>>>>> it enjoyable.
>>>>>>> I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking
>>>>>>> that it
>>>>>>> might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few
>>>>>>> sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular
>>>>>>> article on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are
>>>>>>> only viewed, created, and edited in the search result page
>>>>>>> directly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound
>>>>>>> reasonable?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at
>>>>>>>>> Forum:Main
>>>>>>>>> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a
>>>>>>>>> policy page
>>>>>>>>> at search:Main namespace
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fred Bauder
>>>>>>>> Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the
>>>>>>> "mini"
>>>>>>>> content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for
>>>>>>> example
>>>>>>>> in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would
>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>>> be extracted on the fly. Would this work?
>>>>>>>> 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation
>>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides
>>>>>>>> some disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> bulk of
>>>>>>>> links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way
>>>>>>>> around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the
>>>>>>> large,
>>>>>>>> detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis
>>>>>>>> [ambiguation]" or
>>>>>>>> "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/
>>>>>>> disambiguation"
>>>>>>>> or "innocence (disambiguation)".
>>>>>>>> My guess is that there will always be many more small
>>>>>>>> articles
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space
>>>>>>>> will make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit"
>>>>>>>> links in parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links.
>>>>>>>> Currently, they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to
>>>>>>>> refer to the small
>>>>>>>> articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the
>>>>>>>> links.
>>>>>>>> --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and
>>>>>>>> we could
>>>>>>>> put policy in some other namespace such as policy.
>>>>>>> If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search
>>>>>>> result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so
>>>>>>> the regular articles are in the regular namespace.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the
>>>>>>> "Mini:" namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a
>>>>>>> database of mini articles from any wiki on the web.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Search wiki mailing list
>>>>>>> http://search.wikia.com/
>>>>>>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Search wiki mailing list
>>>>>>> http://search.wikia.com/
>>>>>>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> SearchWiki mailing list
>>>>>> SearchWiki at wikia.com
>>>>>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> End of SearchWiki Digest, Vol 1, Issue 9
>>>>>> ****************************************
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Prof. Dr. Jean-Pol Martin
>>>>> Didaktik der franz?sischen
>>>>> Sprache und Literatur
>>>>> Universit?t, Zi. 240
>>>>> 85071 Eichst?tt
>>>>> Tel. (08421) 93-1536
>>>>> Fax: (08421) 93-1797
>>>>> http://projektkompetenz.de/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Search wiki mailing list
>>>>> http://search.wikia.com/
>>>>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 15:06:27 +0000
>>>> From: "Mark (Markie)" <newsmarkie at googlemail.com>
>>>> Subject: [Search wiki] Input wanted on Mini and main name spaces for
>>>> Search Wikia
>>>> To: "Mailing list for Search Wikia" <search-l at wikia.com>, "Search
>>>> Wiki" <searchwiki at wikia.com>, "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at wikia.com>, jer
>>>> <jeremie at jabber.org>
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <a6424d870802010706t3da4f35dk85bbb4001f3ecbd4 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>
>>>> Right im being bold here, so sorry if anyone has problems with this.
>>>>
>>>> Currently there is not really any definite policy on what is
>>>> acceptable in, and what should not be in mini: articles for Search
>>>> Wikia. This means that as an admin on the wiki I, and other admins,
>>>> have difficulty in deciding what should be allowed to stay and what
>>>> should be in the articles. It also means trouble for people who are
>>>> trying to contribute as there isn't really a list of what should and
>>>> shouldn't be in the mini articles.
>>>>
>>>> So I'm suggesting the following to try and get this sorted. Go to
>>>> this page :-
>>>> *http://search.wikia.com/wiki/search:Mini_article/Policy_discussion*<http://search.wikia.com/wiki/search:Mini_article/Policy_discussion>
>>>>
>>>> This page is to be used for the posting and discussion of ideas for
>>>> the policy on Mini: articles, Search:Mini
>>>> article<http://search.wikia.com/wiki/search:Mini_article>,
>>>> and what they should contain. As the main name space, (the namespace
>>>> with no prefix) is an alternative location for content, the question
>>>> of what the main name space is to be used for is also under
>>>> consideration, see Search:Main namespace
>>>> <http://search.wikia.com/wiki/search:Main_namespace> for one
>>>> alternative use. Please post ideas below and then these will be
>>>> discussed until *February 8, 2008*. From then until *February 15,
>>>> 2008* various versions of the policy will be drawn up.
>>>>
>>>> More details are on the wiki page, please check there. Please add
>>>> your inputs.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks all and hope i haven't upset anyone.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL:
>>>> http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080201/e9760fea/attachment-0001.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 10:00:58 +0530
>>>> From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Forum:Main Namespace
>>>> To: Search Wiki <searchwiki at wikia.com>
>>>> Message-ID: <47A3F202.8040000 at wikia.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>> I tend to side with Angela in this little mini-debate about
>>>> mini-articles. :) While the mini-articles should be thought of as
>>>> being primarily a part of a broader search-result page, they
>>>> probably can and will be linked to by others, and that's almost
>>>> certainly ok.
>>>>
>>>> jer wrote:
>>>>>> If the mini-articles contain quality information, people will link
>>>>>> to them from elsewhere. I think these pages have the potential to
>>>>>> be useful in many more contexts than just Wikia Search.
>>>>> That raises an interesting question, should they even be accessible
>>>>> outside of the search result screen? What if you can only view a
>>>>> mini-article in it's native environment, in a search result?
>>>>>
>>>>> We're all still learning exactly what they are of course, so my
>>>>> $0.02 is that their very definition is being part of a search
>>>>> result and any other uses may be diluting their value as that.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The mini-article on Visvo is the 3rd hit in... that other search
>>>>>> engine and I expect a lot of people will come across mini-articles
>>>>>> that way. http://www.google.com/search?q=Visvo
>>>>> Even still, http://mini.search.wikia.com vs. http://search.wikia.com
>>>>> seems pretty insignificant a difference there?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jer
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Search wiki mailing list
>>>>> http://search.wikia.com/
>>>>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> SearchWiki mailing list
>>>> SearchWiki at wikia.com
>>>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> End of SearchWiki Digest, Vol 2, Issue 1
>>>> ****************************************
>>>>
>> --
>> Prof. Dr. Jean-Pol Martin
>> Didaktik der franz?sischen
>> Sprache und Literatur
>> Universit?t, Zi. 240
>> 85071 Eichst?tt
>> Tel. (08421) 93-1536
>> Fax: (08421) 93-1797
>> http://projektkompetenz.de/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Search wiki mailing list
>> http://search.wikia.com/
>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> SearchWiki mailing list
> SearchWiki at wikia.com
> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki
>
>
> End of SearchWiki Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4
> ****************************************
>
--
Prof. Dr. Jean-Pol Martin
Didaktik der französischen
Sprache und Literatur
Universität, Zi. 240
85071 Eichstätt
Tel. (08421) 93-1536
Fax: (08421) 93-1797
http://projektkompetenz.de/
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