From beesley at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 03:59:14 2008 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:59:14 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] A new list for the wiki Message-ID: <8b722b800801061959h6eb2edc0ybb2bc6b4dd8d4fb2@mail.gmail.com> Rather than get lost in the noise of search-l, I've made a new mailing list that is just about the *wiki* at search.wikia.com and not about the search project. I've subscribed all the wiki's admins, but it's an open and public list, so isn't intended to be only for admins. Possible uses for this list include: - defining "mini-articles", what's allowed, and what should be deleted? - handling other languages - where should mini-articles in other languages go? when is it time to make separate search.wikia.com wikis for other languages? - problem users - report special issues that require wider attention, like mass spamming, or trolling. Discuss whether the wiki needs special protection during periods of high activity - defining wiki policies, including those around blocking, protection, and deletion Angela From beesley at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 04:07:35 2008 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:07:35 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] Non-english mini-articles Message-ID: <8b722b800801062007h2e749e07rf3db731af9ea2aa5@mail.gmail.com> I noticed some non-English articles were being deleted. Although the search site itself has not yet been translated, it is intended to be an international project. A lot of the languages will be too small for their own wikis at first, so I think we need to find a way to handle multiple languages in one wiki. That will probably become easier after we've really defined what a mini-article is for, but for now, I suggest not deleting content that was submitted in good faith, but rather categorizing it by language, or adding an English translation (or anything relevant in English - it doesn't need to be a translation). Angela From beesley at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 07:31:47 2008 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:31:47 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] External links in mini-articles Message-ID: <8b722b800801062331w741112a8r9ab6b683e96df125@mail.gmail.com> Is there any need for external links in mini-articles? An easy way to cut the spam would just be to prevent them totally, allowing only internal links for "see-also" and interwiki links to Wikipedia. Angela From jwales at wikia.com Mon Jan 7 07:38:00 2008 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:38:00 -0500 Subject: [Search wiki] External links in mini-articles In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801062331w741112a8r9ab6b683e96df125@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801062331w741112a8r9ab6b683e96df125@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4781D6D8.7040904@wikia.com> Angela wrote: > Is there any need for external links in mini-articles? An easy way to > cut the spam would just be to prevent them totally, allowing only > internal links for "see-also" and interwiki links to Wikipedia. In general, I think that external links will be highly desirable. http://www.mahalo.com/Thomas_jefferson is an illustration of the kind of thing that mini-articles can evolve into, if we leave it very open ended for now. From jwales at wikia.com Mon Jan 7 07:41:15 2008 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:41:15 -0500 Subject: [Search wiki] External links in mini-articles In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801062331w741112a8r9ab6b683e96df125@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801062331w741112a8r9ab6b683e96df125@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4781D79B.3020102@wikia.com> Angela wrote: > Is there any need for external links in mini-articles? An easy way to > cut the spam would just be to prevent them totally, allowing only > internal links for "see-also" and interwiki links to Wikipedia. One thing you can do is turn off editing by anons on this wiki, if spam looks bad. We are requiring people to validate emails to log into the search engine side of things. Eventually we can require people to validate emails to log into the wiki as well, and we can make it so that being block from the wiki also blocks people from the social network, etc. --Jimbo From allen at centernetworks.com Mon Jan 7 07:38:36 2008 From: allen at centernetworks.com (Allen Stern) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:38:36 -0500 Subject: [Search wiki] External links in mini-articles In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801062331w741112a8r9ab6b683e96df125@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801062331w741112a8r9ab6b683e96df125@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4781D6FC.4050900@centernetworks.com> I agree with that Angela - any external linking would easily create more spam. At the same time, this would assume that the search engine itself will show the best results first. I noted this in my review: http://www.centernetworks.com/wikia-search-goes-live Keeping spam out of the mini articles will be a factor in success for this search engine. -- Allen Angela wrote: > Is there any need for external links in mini-articles? An easy way to > cut the spam would just be to prevent them totally, allowing only > internal links for "see-also" and interwiki links to Wikipedia. > > Angela > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > > From newsmarkie at googlemail.com Mon Jan 7 08:54:38 2008 From: newsmarkie at googlemail.com (Mark (Markie)) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:54:38 +0000 Subject: [Search wiki] Non-english mini-articles In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801062007h2e749e07rf3db731af9ea2aa5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801062007h2e749e07rf3db731af9ea2aa5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: i agree with this and support internationalisation, but the problem is that these pages will show up in searches that are run on the english beta :-( so they have to be deleted to stop this. if the techs could set something up so that we could enter a {{Do no show}} template or something by cat then i would fully support this :-) nice idea creating a new list for this btw :-) mark On Jan 7, 2008 4:07 AM, Angela wrote: > I noticed some non-English articles were being deleted. > > Although the search site itself has not yet been translated, it is > intended to be an international project. > > A lot of the languages will be too small for their own wikis at first, > so I think we need to find a way to handle multiple languages in one > wiki. That will probably become easier after we've really defined what > a mini-article is for, but for now, I suggest not deleting content > that was submitted in good faith, but rather categorizing it by > language, or adding an English translation (or anything relevant in > English - it doesn't need to be a translation). > > Angela > _______________________________________________ > SearchWiki mailing list > SearchWiki at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080107/777058dd/attachment.html From beesley at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 09:10:58 2008 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:10:58 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] Non-english mini-articles In-Reply-To: References: <8b722b800801062007h2e749e07rf3db731af9ea2aa5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800801070110m6a9fea7eh567240f31640caca@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2008 7:54 PM, Mark (Markie) wrote: > i agree with this and support internationalisation, but the problem is that > these pages will show up in searches that are run on the english beta :-( so > they have to be deleted to stop this. if the techs could set something up > so that we could enter a {{Do no show}} template or something by cat then i > would fully support this :-) I think it's ok that they're linked there. The alternative is to have a blank page, and I don't think showing another language is worse than nothing. People can still edit it, and add something in their own language until we can split these off into their own wikis. It's quite easy to add a quick English definition at the top. It takes no longer than deleting and isn't so likely to upset the new users. Here's an example: http://search.wikia.decenturl.com/diff-link Even if it's not possible to write something in English, you could add a heading like ==English== and leave it for someone else to fill in. The heading makes it clear this just hasn't been written yet. Angela From charitwo at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 09:26:15 2008 From: charitwo at gmail.com (Charitwo (SRA Moliske Sean M)) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 03:26:15 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] External links in mini-articles In-Reply-To: <4781D6FC.4050900@centernetworks.com> References: <8b722b800801062331w741112a8r9ab6b683e96df125@mail.gmail.com> <4781D6FC.4050900@centernetworks.com> Message-ID: Disabling anon editing should be a last resort, I think. Though making confirm edit captcha for new external links seems like a solution we can try. Can you add that, Angela? On Jan 7, 2008 1:38 AM, Allen Stern wrote: > I agree with that Angela - any external linking would easily create more > spam. At the same time, this would assume that the search engine itself > will show the best results first. I noted this in my review: > http://www.centernetworks.com/wikia-search-goes-live > > Keeping spam out of the mini articles will be a factor in success for > this search engine. > > -- Allen > > Angela wrote: > > Is there any need for external links in mini-articles? An easy way to > > cut the spam would just be to prevent them totally, allowing only > > internal links for "see-also" and interwiki links to Wikipedia. > > > > Angela > > _______________________________________________ > > Search wiki mailing list > > http://search.wikia.com/ > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080107/6969f9a1/attachment.html From beesley at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 10:11:06 2008 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:11:06 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] Deletions on Wikia Search Message-ID: <8b722b800801070211kc581f52sd68a817f0da46f20@mail.gmail.com> Please be careful about deleting articles on the search wiki. The concept of a mini-article is not yet well defined. We're experimenting and seeing what sort of content people add, so during this period, please be lenient about accepting content. Anything that could be useful for someone searching for that term is potentially a good mini-article, whether that's a short definition, a see-also, an image, or a disambiguation page. Unless the page is purely link spam with no text, please keep these for now and welcome their authors. Angela From beesley at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 10:19:54 2008 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:19:54 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] External links in mini-articles In-Reply-To: References: <8b722b800801062331w741112a8r9ab6b683e96df125@mail.gmail.com> <4781D6FC.4050900@centernetworks.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800801070219w52048188gf4d652e3329a4f8a@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2008 8:26 PM, Charitwo (SRA Moliske Sean M) wrote: > Disabling anon editing should be a last resort, I think. Though making > confirm edit captcha for new external links seems like a solution we can > try. Can you add that, Angela? That should be the case already, for all wikis, where non-logged in users add external links. Angela From balinny at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 15:43:02 2008 From: balinny at gmail.com (Balinny) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:43:02 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] A new list for the wiki In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801061959h6eb2edc0ybb2bc6b4dd8d4fb2@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801061959h6eb2edc0ybb2bc6b4dd8d4fb2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47824886.3060900@gmail.com> Angela wrote: > - defining "mini-articles", what's allowed, and what should be deleted? > - handling other languages - where should mini-articles in other > languages go? when is it time to make separate search.wikia.com wikis > for other languages? > They should go in the same page. If people do a query in English, they have English results, if they do it in Chinese, get Chinese results. So Chinese miniarticles should be allowed. You can't split in per language search wiki until the search supports "search in langoage foo". However, words with different meanings on different languages are problematic. Yesterday i tested the search engine with "cat", expecting results about either /Felis silvestris catus or the *nix utility. Most of answers were about catalan language, probably due to a bias for the word being in the url. But as the same happens with Google maybe it's NOTABUG. :/ / From balinny at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 15:45:46 2008 From: balinny at gmail.com (Balinny) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:45:46 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] [Search-l] Search Wikia & Wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4782492A.3090503@gmail.com> Alex Halavais escribi?: > Sorry to have not been tracking closely on the discussions leading up > to the launch, so this may already have been asked (and asked and > asked) and answered, but to what degree is there an effort to leverage > Wikipedia in Wikia Search. Obviously, they serve different ends, but > not that different. Many of my students already use Wikipedia as their > search engine when they are looking for information about a topic, and > Google, for example, when re-finding a site they already know exists. > > Specifically, it seems like a translation of disambiguation pages from > Wikipedia would be a great benefit. When a user searches for CMC, the > disambiguation page from Wikipedia, with links to new searches, rather > than Wikipedia entries, could serve as a significant improvement to > the search process. It is tempting to just set up a short translation > script and pull information over... > > The question extends to the structure of the Minis. Are they intended > as short, definitional entries; mini-Wikipedia entries? Leaving aside > a number of semi-spammy entries, that seems to be the norm. E.g.: > http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Mini:Lasik_appleton or > http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Mini:Neuroscience . Or are they meant as > a Mahaloesque user-edited guide to what can be found out on the web? I > guess the shorter question is: Are there a set of models for excellent > Minis, and should these be highlighted early on to help contributors? > > - Alex > Agree. Automatically filling not existing the Minis with the Wikipedia content if it's a disambiguation or maybe from simple: for the else would be helpful. (Forwarding to searchwiki at wikia.com) From emijrp at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 16:05:36 2008 From: emijrp at gmail.com (emijrp) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 17:05:36 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] A new list for the wiki In-Reply-To: <47824886.3060900@gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801061959h6eb2edc0ybb2bc6b4dd8d4fb2@mail.gmail.com> <47824886.3060900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47824DD0.7070500@gmail.com> I'm not about that. If I search "42", what languages will the search engine show? There are universal or untranslable strings: Wikipedia, The Rolling Stones, lorem ipsum, Albert Einstein. The result page must be written in the user language, or to be multilingual. This can be done by a subdomain division (de|en|es|fr).search.wikia.com, with the user language preferences (but this doesn't exist by now) or detecting the country of anonymous users by their IP adresses. Regards, emijrp Balinny escribi?: > They should go in the same page. If people do a query in English, they > have English results, > if they do it in Chinese, get Chinese results. So Chinese miniarticles > should be allowed. You can't > split in per language search wiki until the search supports "search in > langoage foo". > However, words with different meanings on different languages are > problematic. > > Yesterday i tested the search engine with "cat", expecting results about > either /Felis silvestris > catus or the *nix utility. Most of answers were about catalan language, > probably due to a > bias for the word being in the url. > But as the same happens with Google maybe it's NOTABUG. :/ > / > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > > From balinny at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 17:40:56 2008 From: balinny at gmail.com (Balinny) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:40:56 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] A new list for the wiki In-Reply-To: <47824DD0.7070500@gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801061959h6eb2edc0ybb2bc6b4dd8d4fb2@mail.gmail.com> <47824886.3060900@gmail.com> <47824DD0.7070500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47826428.4020403@gmail.com> emijrp wrote: > I'm not about that. If I search "42", what languages will the search > engine show? There are universal or untranslable strings: Wikipedia, The > Rolling Stones, lorem ipsum, Albert Einstein. The most relevant ones. > The result page must be written in the user language, or to be multilingual. Agree > This can be done by a subdomain division (de|en|es|fr).search.wikia.com, with the user > language preferences (but this doesn't exist by now) Why would you do that? Just provide a "Search in language X" > or detecting the > country of anonymous users by their IP adresses. > Nooo! I could be on country A but speak language B (and what would you do at countries with multiple languages?). Plus geocoding dbs are not that good. Go for the accept-language header before doing so. From emijrp at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 18:13:14 2008 From: emijrp at gmail.com (emijrp) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 19:13:14 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] A new list for the wiki In-Reply-To: <47826428.4020403@gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801061959h6eb2edc0ybb2bc6b4dd8d4fb2@mail.gmail.com> <47824886.3060900@gmail.com> <47824DD0.7070500@gmail.com> <47826428.4020403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47826BBA.2000000@gmail.com> In the previous post, where I wrote "I'm not about that" I mean "I'm not sure about that", and "untranslable" is "untraslatable". Sorry. You say that Search Wikia must to show "the most relevant ones", but I add "and the most nearest ones to the user language". It has to be a "combined algorithm". I'm Spanish, and I use www.google.es. When I search "Wikipedia", the first result is es.wikipedia.org, you can check it here http://www.google.es/search?hl=es&q=wikipedia . You accept that the result page must be written in the user language, or to be multilingual. Multilingual is a problem because a lot of people can be interested only in ones which are written in their languages. And a results page written in the user language needs a software feature to detect the user language. How can you develop it? You say "Just provide a "search in X language"", but how? with a link to each language in the mainpage? by user preferences? by subdomains? or by a trick on the search string? About the countries with multiple languages (I live in Spain, and we have four co-official languages and the spanish), so I knew about that problem. I don't know if Search Wikia developers have got a solution to this problem, perhaps we are speaking pointlessly. regards, emijrp From balinny at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 19:00:54 2008 From: balinny at gmail.com (Balinny) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 20:00:54 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] A new list for the wiki In-Reply-To: <47826BBA.2000000@gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801061959h6eb2edc0ybb2bc6b4dd8d4fb2@mail.gmail.com> <47824886.3060900@gmail.com> <47824DD0.7070500@gmail.com> <47826428.4020403@gmail.com> <47826BBA.2000000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <478276E6.1070905@gmail.com> emijrp wrote: > In the previous post, where I wrote "I'm not about that" I mean "I'm not > sure about that", and "untranslable" is "untraslatable". Sorry. > > You say that Search Wikia must to show "the most relevant ones", but I > add "and the most nearest ones to the user language". It has to be a > "combined algorithm". I'm Spanish, and I use www.google.es. When I > search "Wikipedia", the first result is es.wikipedia.org, you can check > it here http://www.google.es/search?hl=es&q=wikipedia . > Yes, Google has a bias for results in your own language, which i don't always like. But the fact of using a different domain is irrelevant. They all point to the same ips (using akamai) and have the same contents. > You accept that the result page must be written in the user language, or > to be multilingual. Multilingual is a problem because a lot of people > can be interested only in ones which are written in their languages. On that same page you have an option "p?ginas en espa?ol". That's what i meant. An option to choose on the search page which languages to use. Google system is not so good, as you can only restrict it to your own language, if you'reyou can restrict to "Seiten auf Deutsch" still using www.google.es, but need to manually add to the url &meta=lr%3Dlang_de. Wikia Search should go for a combo box, where the default (selected) option is what the server thinks is the user language. If the user wants another language, just chooses from there. A support for multiple languages: "en|de|es" would also be fine, maybe choosing them from a different "advanced" page. Note: don't prefill the combo with all existing languages! Just only those which the crawler is able to detect. > I don't know if Search Wikia developers have got a solution to this > problem, perhaps we are speaking pointlessly. > Search wikia has just started. This is not a concern for the near future :-) From newsmarkie at googlemail.com Mon Jan 7 19:31:45 2008 From: newsmarkie at googlemail.com (Mark (Markie)) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:31:45 +0000 Subject: [Search wiki] Add to watchlist please Message-ID: Can i ask my fellow admins (Mark and Sean) and all active staff to add the following page to their watchlist, as this is where all requests for admin action and deletion are listed and with the huge influx in edits this an important page now. http://search.wikia.com/wiki/search:Requests_for_administrator_attention Thanks Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080107/a7bafb15/attachment.html From mark.e.schellhase at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 20:46:23 2008 From: mark.e.schellhase at gmail.com (Mark Schellhase) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:46:23 -0500 Subject: [Search wiki] Add to watchlist please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d25c2330801071246x1dc34a7ct2605c39d5b8b8d49@mail.gmail.com> Done! --Mark Schellhase On Jan 7, 2008 2:31 PM, Mark (Markie) wrote: > Can i ask my fellow admins (Mark and Sean) and all active staff to add the > following page to their watchlist, as this is where all requests for admin > action and deletion are listed and with the huge influx in edits this an > important page now. > > http://search.wikia.com/wiki/search:Requests_for_administrator_attention > > Thanks > > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080107/e7dca5f3/attachment.html From beesley at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 01:35:41 2008 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:35:41 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] [Search-l] Inclusion criteria. In-Reply-To: <5d25c2330801070635h4d118c7du598e590bacb4898e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d25c2330801070635h4d118c7du598e590bacb4898e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800801071735i6816f0cbr24b73d6577ce64c7@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 8, 2008 1:35 AM, Mark Schellhase wrote: > We are in serious need of some sort of inclusion criteria for the mini > articles. I have seen so many already that look like good candidates for > deletion, but I really don't have a good idea what notability for search > comprises. There is no need for the topics to be notable. Mini-articles are good if they provide useful content to someone searching for that term. If someone is seacrhing for your cat, it's totally fine for there to be a mini-article on that. It's not meant to be encyclopedic. It just has to be not pure spam. This means, you can link to your cat's myspace page on the mini-article about your cat, but not on the mini-article about myspace. :) Angela From balinny at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 11:29:11 2008 From: balinny at gmail.com (Balinny) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 12:29:11 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] [Search-l] Inclusion criteria. In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801071735i6816f0cbr24b73d6577ce64c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d25c2330801070635h4d118c7du598e590bacb4898e@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b800801071735i6816f0cbr24b73d6577ce64c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47835E87.5030306@gmail.com> Angela wrote: > There is no need for the topics to be notable. Mini-articles are good > if they provide useful content to someone searching for that term. If > someone is seacrhing for your cat, it's totally fine for there to be a > mini-article on that. It's not meant to be encyclopedic. It just has > to be not pure spam. This means, you can link to your cat's myspace > page on the mini-article about your cat, but not on the mini-article > about myspace. :) > > Angela What if my cat is called Yahoo? ;-) Seriously, we have to take into account if someone will be searching for my cat. Or we could have multpile mini-articles with the same name (or structurise them in entries) and do an score of which ones are shown before (not making the mini article space bigger, just scrolling). From angela at wikia.com Wed Jan 9 02:56:18 2008 From: angela at wikia.com (Angela Beesley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 13:56:18 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] Five new admins Message-ID: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> Whilst the rate of new users and new page creation is so high on the Search wiki, I think it's important to have a lot of help from trusted users. I would like to welcome Versageek, WikiJonathan, Emijrp, Bani, Balinny as new admins on search.wikia.com. Angela From jwales at wikia.com Wed Jan 9 03:07:30 2008 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:07:30 -0500 Subject: [Search wiki] Five new admins In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47843A72.6030505@wikia.com> Yay! Sort of fun. I am trying to greet new users and do some editing here and there but of course the terrible secret that all wikipedians have known for a long time is that I am not very good at wiki editing. :) Angela Beesley wrote: > Whilst the rate of new users and new page creation is so high on the > Search wiki, I think it's important to have a lot of help from trusted > users. > > I would like to welcome Versageek, WikiJonathan, Emijrp, Bani, Balinny > as new admins on search.wikia.com. > > Angela > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > From jwales at wikia.com Wed Jan 9 03:09:51 2008 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:09:51 -0500 Subject: [Search wiki] [Search-l] Inclusion criteria. In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801071735i6816f0cbr24b73d6577ce64c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d25c2330801070635h4d118c7du598e590bacb4898e@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b800801071735i6816f0cbr24b73d6577ce64c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47843AFF.1050801@wikia.com> Angela wrote: > There is no need for the topics to be notable. Mini-articles are good > if they provide useful content to someone searching for that term. If > someone is seacrhing for your cat, it's totally fine for there to be a > mini-article on that. It's not meant to be encyclopedic. It just has > to be not pure spam. This means, you can link to your cat's myspace > page on the mini-article about your cat, but not on the mini-article > about myspace. :) I love the way you put this! From emijrp at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 13:18:03 2008 From: emijrp at gmail.com (emijrp) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:18:03 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] Five new admins In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4784C98B.4050805@gmail.com> Thanks for your trust. I'm deleting some nonsense pages and a massive spam from an IP address. Also, I'm greeting newcomers. :-) regards, emijrp From newsmarkie at googlemail.com Wed Jan 9 14:18:24 2008 From: newsmarkie at googlemail.com (Mark (Markie)) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:18:24 +0000 Subject: [Search wiki] Five new admins In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: welcome to all. please make sure you sign up to the admins page - linked in the rc header :-) welcome and enjoy spam chewing :-) mark [[User:Markie]] On Jan 9, 2008 2:56 AM, Angela Beesley wrote: > Whilst the rate of new users and new page creation is so high on the > Search wiki, I think it's important to have a lot of help from trusted > users. > > I would like to welcome Versageek, WikiJonathan, Emijrp, Bani, Balinny > as new admins on search.wikia.com. > > Angela > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080109/b560e1bf/attachment.html From borboleta at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 20:53:49 2008 From: borboleta at gmail.com (Bani) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:53:49 -0200 Subject: [Search wiki] Non-english mini-articles Message-ID: <35b94d690801091253t9cf79f9t9c2702927b9316b2@mail.gmail.com> I've seen some people adding information to existing articles in other languages by adding a new section with the language as title and others using the nameOfArticle/langCode pattern. Do we have a preference about this? I have two questions on my Talk page which I don't know how to answer: - Hello Bani, i have a question. Please see at the article Mini:Linux. What can i do with the language? Mini:Linux/po and Mini:Linux/en ? Best greetings - Hi there, thanks for the advice! Is it possible to link to the german-localized wikipedia via {{wp|Hardcore}} ? Thanks, Vanessa From balinny at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 23:22:42 2008 From: balinny at gmail.com (Balinny) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:22:42 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] Non-english mini-articles In-Reply-To: <35b94d690801091253t9cf79f9t9c2702927b9316b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <35b94d690801091253t9cf79f9t9c2702927b9316b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47855742.2010706@gmail.com> Bani wrote: > I've seen some people adding information to existing articles in other > languages by adding a new section with the language as title and > others using the nameOfArticle/langCode pattern. Do we have a > preference about this? > As the search shows the article searched, i think we should put everything on the same page, at least until the search software detects those subarticles (which i don't think will do as it is non-trivial). > I have two questions on my Talk page which I don't know how to answer: > > > - Hello Bani, i have a question. Please see at the article Mini:Linux. > What can i do with the language? Mini:Linux/po and Mini:Linux/en ? > Best greetings > > - Hi there, thanks for the advice! Is it possible to link to the > german-localized wikipedia via {{wp|Hardcore}} ? > [[wikipedia:de:Article]] From beesley at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 23:35:32 2008 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:35:32 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] Non-english mini-articles In-Reply-To: <35b94d690801091253t9cf79f9t9c2702927b9316b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <35b94d690801091253t9cf79f9t9c2702927b9316b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800801091535x748f0235x4514424f4f029f63@mail.gmail.com> I thought at first having different languages on one page would be best since I was assuming Mini articles would be very short definitions. However, I see now there's potential for them to be much more, so having proper interlanguage links to the other versions on their own pages is seeming better now. That also will make it easier when we later split some of these languages to their own wikis. Angela On Jan 10, 2008 7:53 AM, Bani wrote: > I've seen some people adding information to existing articles in other > languages by adding a new section with the language as title and > others using the nameOfArticle/langCode pattern. Do we have a > preference about this? > > I have two questions on my Talk page which I don't know how to answer: > > > - Hello Bani, i have a question. Please see at the article Mini:Linux. > What can i do with the language? Mini:Linux/po and Mini:Linux/en ? > Best greetings > > - Hi there, thanks for the advice! Is it possible to link to the > german-localized wikipedia via {{wp|Hardcore}} ? > > > > Thanks, > Vanessa > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > From borboleta at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 01:12:09 2008 From: borboleta at gmail.com (Bani) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:12:09 -0200 Subject: [Search wiki] Non-english mini-articles In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801091535x748f0235x4514424f4f029f63@mail.gmail.com> References: <35b94d690801091253t9cf79f9t9c2702927b9316b2@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b800801091535x748f0235x4514424f4f029f63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35b94d690801091712r4a857490la4990ff5d48d5186@mail.gmail.com> It still isn't perfectly clear to me how to handle this issue. I think we have some different cases: 1) Article is already in English only 2) Article is using more than one language, split in sections 3) Article is about an "international" word but was written in a language other than English 4) Article is about something regional / word not in English and therefore is written in the local language In cases 1 and 4, I think trying to move all articles manually could not be worth the effort. Cases 2 and 3 seem to deserve more attention, since we really will probably split the article at some point, but we still have some decisions to make, such as how to link the different versions. I've just tried to search for a keyword that had both a regular version and a /de version article and only the regular version was visible. Probably if we start using /en for English now it won't even show up (didn't test it though). There are many pages being created in other languages at the moment so I think this subject need some priority to make it easier in the future. And maybe there should be some instructions on the edit page telling the user that if they are writing the article on a language other than English, then they should add it to the category of the language (if we continue using that). That would also make it easier for users to review the content. Vanessa On Jan 9, 2008 9:35 PM, Angela wrote: > I thought at first having different languages on one page would be > best since I was assuming Mini articles would be very short > definitions. However, I see now there's potential for them to be much > more, so having proper interlanguage links to the other versions on > their own pages is seeming better now. That also will make it easier > when we later split some of these languages to their own wikis. > > Angela From borghiborghi at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 15:10:44 2008 From: borghiborghi at gmail.com (Dario Borghino) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:10:44 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] Deletion policy, and possible wiki bug Message-ID: <47863574.7030305@gmail.com> Hi all, I'm a new Wikia Search user -- I found out about it just today, and I'm thrilled. I saw on the log you admins 'took care' of the pages I tagged as to be deleted. However, I'm assuming the deletion policy for mini articles is somehow similar to that of Wikipedia, even if there probably isn't any yet. Is there an article describing it in detail, so that I can avoid tagging false positives? I suppose not, since the concept of a mini article doesn't seem to have been defined yet. In case there isn't any deletion policy, should I just tag spam pages and nonsense? What about pages named after a fairly common search term, should I blank the page or tag it for deletion? Another problem that I experienced is with multilanguage mini articles. See for instance http://re.search.wikia.com/search#linux: personally, I'd prefer seeing only the mini article in my own language, or the english one if my language isn't available (e.g. via the accept-language header or something like that), otherwise articles may just get too long and occupy a large portion of the page, making the user experience less pleasant. There is also a technical problem here, in that if I click on a summary link (e.g. Deutch), I'm redirected to the Deutsch search page rather than the german section of the mini article (at least, that's what happens to me using Iceweasel under Debian etch stable). Are there any plans to implement multiple language mini-wikis? I'm no expert, but I have a strong impression that, since it doesn't aim at being complete, the number of mini articles is going to grow very quickly even for non-english versions. This way we could use (once we get them to work) summaries directly for disambigs rather than localizations. regards, Dario -- We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. -- Robert Silensky From jeremie at jabber.org Fri Jan 11 06:10:05 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:10:05 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Non-english mini-articles In-Reply-To: <35b94d690801091712r4a857490la4990ff5d48d5186@mail.gmail.com> References: <35b94d690801091253t9cf79f9t9c2702927b9316b2@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b800801091535x748f0235x4514424f4f029f63@mail.gmail.com> <35b94d690801091712r4a857490la4990ff5d48d5186@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <25D5FAB6-E970-4D11-8DAD-CB6053F8C4CF@jabber.org> Maybe this has been resolved already and I'm just unaware, but how exactly should the search client (the html/js at re.search.wikia.com) detect the browser's language and pull in the appropriate language miniarticle? I'd be happy to code something in the JavaScript if anyone had pointers on the right thing to do? On Jan 9, 2008, at 7:12 PM, Bani wrote: > It still isn't perfectly clear to me how to handle this issue. I think > we have some different cases: > > 1) Article is already in English only > 2) Article is using more than one language, split in sections > 3) Article is about an "international" word but was written in a > language other than English > 4) Article is about something regional / word not in English and > therefore is written in the local language > > In cases 1 and 4, I think trying to move all articles manually could > not be worth the effort. > Cases 2 and 3 seem to deserve more attention, since we really will > probably split the article at some point, but we still have some > decisions to make, such as how to link the different versions. I've > just tried to search for a keyword that had both a regular version and > a /de version article and only the regular version was visible. > Probably if we start using /en for English now it won't even show up > (didn't test it though). > > There are many pages being created in other languages at the moment so > I think this subject need some priority to make it easier in the > future. And maybe there should be some instructions on the edit page > telling the user that if they are writing the article on a language > other than English, then they should add it to the category of the > language (if we continue using that). That would also make it easier > for users to review the content. > > Vanessa > > On Jan 9, 2008 9:35 PM, Angela wrote: >> I thought at first having different languages on one page would be >> best since I was assuming Mini articles would be very short >> definitions. However, I see now there's potential for them to be much >> more, so having proper interlanguage links to the other versions on >> their own pages is seeming better now. That also will make it easier >> when we later split some of these languages to their own wikis. >> >> Angela > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From borboleta at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 06:31:11 2008 From: borboleta at gmail.com (Bani) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:31:11 -0200 Subject: [Search wiki] Non-english mini-articles In-Reply-To: <25D5FAB6-E970-4D11-8DAD-CB6053F8C4CF@jabber.org> References: <35b94d690801091253t9cf79f9t9c2702927b9316b2@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b800801091535x748f0235x4514424f4f029f63@mail.gmail.com> <35b94d690801091712r4a857490la4990ff5d48d5186@mail.gmail.com> <25D5FAB6-E970-4D11-8DAD-CB6053F8C4CF@jabber.org> Message-ID: <35b94d690801102231x7583bd32g8efb2182d7063bab@mail.gmail.com> Not sure what is the best approach to get the default language, but please leave it user configurable. A few months ago Google decided to start prioritizing pages in "your" language and many people didn't like that (in Google's case you need to click the "Google.com in English" link at the main page to switch back, or else it keeps redirecting you to the localized version, but that isn't very intuitive since many people just wanted the search results in whatever language is most relevant and not the entire thing in English). Vanessa On Jan 11, 2008 4:10 AM, jer wrote: > Maybe this has been resolved already and I'm just unaware, but how > exactly should the search client (the html/js at re.search.wikia.com) > detect the browser's language and pull in the appropriate language > miniarticle? I'd be happy to code something in the JavaScript if > anyone had pointers on the right thing to do? From balinny at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:22:42 2008 From: balinny at gmail.com (Balinny) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:22:42 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] Non-english mini-articles In-Reply-To: <25D5FAB6-E970-4D11-8DAD-CB6053F8C4CF@jabber.org> References: <35b94d690801091253t9cf79f9t9c2702927b9316b2@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b800801091535x748f0235x4514424f4f029f63@mail.gmail.com> <35b94d690801091712r4a857490la4990ff5d48d5186@mail.gmail.com> <25D5FAB6-E970-4D11-8DAD-CB6053F8C4CF@jabber.org> Message-ID: <47876DA2.2000800@gmail.com> jer wrote: > Maybe this has been resolved already and I'm just unaware, but how > exactly should the search client (the html/js at re.search.wikia.com) > detect the browser's language and pull in the appropriate language > miniarticle? I'd be happy to code something in the JavaScript if > anyone had pointers on the right thing to do? > You'd need to pull it from the accept-language header. but i don't have any idea on how to do it with javascript. How is wfGetArticleJSON() implemented? I'd do it there, with something like: function wfGetArticleByUserLanguageJSON($title, $lang) { if (!is_set($lang)) $lang = $_SERVER['HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE']; $Languages = ParseAcceptLanguages($lang); foreach $Languages as $lng { $TitleObj = Title::newFromText("$title/$lng"); if (page_exists) return page_content . '

getFullURL("namespace=" . $TitleObj->getNamespace() . "&from=" . $title) . '">' . wfMsg('view-in-other-languages') . "

"; //FIXME: wfMsg is not aware of the $lang supplied here... } //Do the same as current wfGetArticleJSON() $TitleObj = Title::newFromText("$title"); if (page_exists) return Content; } $wgAjaxExportList[] = 'wfGetArticleByUserLanguageJSON'; Where ParseAcceptLanguages($str); parses an Accept Language header and returns an array of the user accepted languages sorted by priority (;q=n), removes variants when needed, etc. From jeremie at jabber.org Sat Jan 12 23:26:42 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:26:42 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Non-english mini-articles In-Reply-To: <47876DA2.2000800@gmail.com> References: <35b94d690801091253t9cf79f9t9c2702927b9316b2@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b800801091535x748f0235x4514424f4f029f63@mail.gmail.com> <35b94d690801091712r4a857490la4990ff5d48d5186@mail.gmail.com> <25D5FAB6-E970-4D11-8DAD-CB6053F8C4CF@jabber.org> <47876DA2.2000800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0D587837-4F58-4D4B-A7E9-332AF4717B49@jabber.org> I did some research and there isn't any compatible way of getting the equivalent of the accept-language header in javascript. You're suggestion to do this in the php that returns the JSON MA seems like a great next step :) Jer On Jan 11, 2008, at 7:22 AM, Balinny wrote: > jer wrote: >> Maybe this has been resolved already and I'm just unaware, but how >> exactly should the search client (the html/js at re.search.wikia.com) >> detect the browser's language and pull in the appropriate language >> miniarticle? I'd be happy to code something in the JavaScript if >> anyone had pointers on the right thing to do? >> > You'd need to pull it from the accept-language header. but i don't > have > any idea on how to > do it with javascript. > > How is wfGetArticleJSON() implemented? > > > I'd do it there, with something like: > function wfGetArticleByUserLanguageJSON($title, $lang) { > if (!is_set($lang)) > $lang = $_SERVER['HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE']; > $Languages = ParseAcceptLanguages($lang); > > foreach $Languages as $lng { > $TitleObj = Title::newFromText("$title/$lng"); > if (page_exists) > return page_content . '

getFullURL("namespace=" . > $TitleObj->getNamespace() . "&from=" . $title) . '">' . > wfMsg('view-in-other-languages') . "

"; //FIXME: wfMsg is not > aware of the $lang supplied here... > } > > //Do the same as current wfGetArticleJSON() > $TitleObj = Title::newFromText("$title"); > if (page_exists) > return Content; > } > $wgAjaxExportList[] = 'wfGetArticleByUserLanguageJSON'; > > Where ParseAcceptLanguages($str); parses an Accept Language header and > returns an array of the > user accepted languages sorted by priority (;q=n), removes variants > when > needed, etc. > > > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From angela at wikia.com Sun Jan 13 12:33:16 2008 From: angela at wikia.com (Angela Beesley) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:33:16 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] Five new admins In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800801130433n7174673nc482cf13cad13072@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2008 1:56 PM, Angela Beesley wrote: > Whilst the rate of new users and new page creation is so high on the > Search wiki, I think it's important to have a lot of help from trusted > users. > > I would like to welcome Versageek, WikiJonathan, Emijrp, Bani, Balinny > as new admins on search.wikia.com. Fred Bauder, a long-time Wikipedian and founder of water.wikia.com, has also been added to the list of new admins. Angela From newsmarkie at googlemail.com Sun Jan 13 12:37:42 2008 From: newsmarkie at googlemail.com (Mark (Markie)) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:37:42 +0000 Subject: [Search wiki] Five new admins In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801130433n7174673nc482cf13cad13072@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b800801130433n7174673nc482cf13cad13072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: welcome :-) mark On Jan 13, 2008 12:33 PM, Angela Beesley wrote: > On Jan 9, 2008 1:56 PM, Angela Beesley wrote: > > Whilst the rate of new users and new page creation is so high on the > > Search wiki, I think it's important to have a lot of help from trusted > > users. > > > > I would like to welcome Versageek, WikiJonathan, Emijrp, Bani, Balinny > > as new admins on search.wikia.com. > > Fred Bauder, a long-time Wikipedian and founder of water.wikia.com, > has also been added to the list of new admins. > > Angela > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080113/df48b4e1/attachment.html From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Sun Jan 13 12:49:43 2008 From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 07:49:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Search wiki] Five new admins In-Reply-To: References: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b800801130433n7174673nc482cf13cad13072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50125.66.243.196.131.1200228583.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> Thank you Mark, Any hints on what we're doing, including hot issues, and where we talk about it? Fred > welcome :-) > > mark > > On Jan 13, 2008 12:33 PM, Angela Beesley wrote: > >> On Jan 9, 2008 1:56 PM, Angela Beesley wrote: >> > Whilst the rate of new users and new page creation is so high on the >> Search wiki, I think it's important to have a lot of help from >> trusted users. >> > >> > I would like to welcome Versageek, WikiJonathan, Emijrp, Bani, >> Balinny as new admins on search.wikia.com. >> >> Fred Bauder, a long-time Wikipedian and founder of water.wikia.com, >> has also been added to the list of new admins. >> >> Angela >> _______________________________________________ >> Search wiki mailing list >> http://search.wikia.com/ >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From beesley at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 13:55:49 2008 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 00:55:49 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] Five new admins In-Reply-To: <50125.66.243.196.131.1200228583.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> References: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b800801130433n7174673nc482cf13cad13072@mail.gmail.com> <50125.66.243.196.131.1200228583.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> Message-ID: <8b722b800801130555t2a3451des5576c7095683f24b@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 13, 2008 11:49 PM, Fred Bauder wrote: > Thank you Mark, > > Any hints on what we're doing, including hot issues, and where we talk > about it? Hi Fred, Welcome! Like the search engine itself, the the wiki policies are still in the early stages of development. The definition of a mini-article is currently very broad and we're hoping to find out more about what sort of content does make a good mini-article by being lenient during this first stage and allowing everything but blatant spam. It's important to note that aticles should not be deleted for being non-notable, or for being in languages other than English. This mailing list and the wiki forums at http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Index are the 2 main areas for discussing the wiki itself. Angela From newsmarkie at googlemail.com Sun Jan 13 14:10:04 2008 From: newsmarkie at googlemail.com (Mark (Markie)) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:10:04 +0000 Subject: [Search wiki] Five new admins In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801130555t2a3451des5576c7095683f24b@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800801081856m3f5e00a2h34323d40fcd2c127@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b800801130433n7174673nc482cf13cad13072@mail.gmail.com> <50125.66.243.196.131.1200228583.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <8b722b800801130555t2a3451des5576c7095683f24b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: we use http://search.wikia.com/wiki/search:Requests_for_administrator_attentionthat page for admin noticeboard stuff - is linked in rc header :-) so please add this to your watchlist. also i use IRC a lot in #searchwikia and so does two other admins (Bani and emijrp) and maybe others so thats a good place to be :-) apart from that, welcome and happy spam chewing :-) mark [[User:Markie]] On Jan 13, 2008 1:55 PM, Angela wrote: > On Jan 13, 2008 11:49 PM, Fred Bauder wrote: > > Thank you Mark, > > > > Any hints on what we're doing, including hot issues, and where we talk > > about it? > > Hi Fred, > > Welcome! > > Like the search engine itself, the the wiki policies are still in the > early stages of development. The definition of a mini-article is > currently very broad and we're hoping to find out more about what sort > of content does make a good mini-article by being lenient during this > first stage and allowing everything but blatant spam. It's important > to note that aticles should not be deleted for being non-notable, or > for being in languages other than English. > > This mailing list and the wiki forums at > http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Index are the 2 main areas for > discussing the wiki itself. > > Angela > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080113/07158579/attachment.html From rainer.blome at gmx.de Mon Jan 14 14:33:10 2008 From: rainer.blome at gmx.de (Rainer Blome) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:33:10 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] Close either main or Mini namespace Message-ID: <20080114143310.214000@gmx.net> Hi! Please see http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Suggest_to_forbid_new_articles_in_main_namespace , the gist of which is this: For whatever reason, some new articles intended for search engine users (mini articles), ranging from ten to fifty per day, are created in the main instead of in the Mini namespace. I see two ways to deal with this: Either effectively prevent main pages, or make them the norm. Disabling the creation of new pages in the main namespace would make it clearer that the main namespace is off limits for mini articles. The wiki pages with project content (contents of the "Search" wiki) should instead be created in a dedicated namespace, for example "search:". Assuming that mini articles pose the majority in this wiki (if not yet, they soon will be), an alternative approach suggests itself: Drop the "Mini:" prefix altogether. First move all articles currently in the main namespace to "search:", then move all mini articles to the main namespace. The search engine would then have to look for mini articles in the main namespace. The latter may be the simpler approach in the long run, especially for the users. It is less confusing, and allows for easier copying of existing content from Wikipedia, especially disambiguation pages. Rainer -- Ciao, Rainer Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger?did=10 From rainer.blome at gmx.de Mon Jan 14 14:35:16 2008 From: rainer.blome at gmx.de (Rainer Blome) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:35:16 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki Message-ID: <20080114143516.214060@gmx.net> [Second try, I used the wrong sender address with the first one.] Hi. Missing a "free" search engine, I was delighted to read of Wikia Search. And it looks like a good beginning. Has anyone got any idea how far the concept of creating one mini article per search query can be taken? Is it possible to keep up indefinitely? It appears to me that the number of different queries can quickly reach millions, and billions in the long run. Mini articles will not be written for every query. What is the ratio between number of new queries and number of mini articles writen? Looking for this topic, I found only this: >From jwales at wikia.com Thu Jan 4 00:51:34 2007 >peter burden wrote: >>the scale of the whole enterprise. Are we >>intending to outdo [...]? If so a long careful look at the >>numbers is called for. >Eh, I dunno. This may have been discussed elsewhere. If so, please provide a pointer. -- Rainer GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail From jeremie at jabber.org Tue Jan 15 01:34:37 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:34:37 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki In-Reply-To: <20080114143516.214060@gmx.net> References: <20080114143516.214060@gmx.net> Message-ID: <4A454BB6-06A1-4A84-A91D-09FDFBB6F4F6@jabber.org> The intent (in my opinion at least) isn't to have an article for every different query, but instead to provide a facility for anyone to provide immediate human guidance when the automated results may fail in some way. Jer On Jan 14, 2008, at 8:35 AM, Rainer Blome wrote: > [Second try, I used the wrong sender address with the first one.] > > Hi. Missing a "free" search engine, I was delighted to read of > Wikia Search. > And it looks like a good beginning. > > Has anyone got any idea how far the concept of creating one mini > article per search query can be taken? Is it possible to keep up > indefinitely? > > It appears to me that the number of different queries can quickly > reach millions, and billions in the long run. > Mini articles will not be written for every query. > What is the ratio between number of new queries and number of mini > articles writen? > > Looking for this topic, I found only this: >> From jwales at wikia.com Thu Jan 4 00:51:34 2007 >> peter burden wrote: >>> the scale of the whole enterprise. Are we >>> intending to outdo [...]? If so a long careful look at the >>> numbers is called for. >> Eh, I dunno. > > This may have been discussed elsewhere. If so, please provide a > pointer. > > -- > Rainer > > > GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. > Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From jeremie at jabber.org Tue Jan 15 01:36:54 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:36:54 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Close either main or Mini namespace In-Reply-To: <20080114143310.214000@gmx.net> References: <20080114143310.214000@gmx.net> Message-ID: <28F25677-5F06-4CD1-92F4-D16815E0670B@jabber.org> Seems reasonable, it was also discussed about dedicating a wiki specifically to mini articles... I guess we're still in "learning" mode to figure out how these will best serve searchers and the community, then we can start to optimize and focus on particular positive usages. Jer On Jan 14, 2008, at 8:33 AM, Rainer Blome wrote: > Hi! > Please see > http://search.wikia.com/wiki/ > Forum:Suggest_to_forbid_new_articles_in_main_namespace , the gist > of which is this: > > For whatever reason, some new articles intended for search engine > users (mini articles), ranging from ten to fifty per day, are > created in the main instead of in the Mini namespace. > > I see two ways to deal with this: Either effectively prevent main > pages, or make them the norm. > > Disabling the creation of new pages in the main namespace would > make it clearer that the main namespace is off limits for mini > articles. > The wiki pages with project content (contents of the "Search" wiki) > should instead be created in a dedicated namespace, for example > "search:". > > Assuming that mini articles pose the majority in this wiki (if not > yet, they soon will be), an alternative approach suggests itself: > > Drop the "Mini:" prefix altogether. First move all articles > currently in the main namespace to "search:", then move all mini > articles to the main namespace. The search engine would then have > to look for mini articles in the main namespace. > > The latter may be the simpler approach in the long run, especially > for the users. It is less confusing, and allows for easier copying > of existing content from Wikipedia, especially disambiguation pages. > > Rainer > > -- > Ciao, Rainer > > > Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? > Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger?did=10 > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Tue Jan 15 01:47:34 2008 From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:47:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki In-Reply-To: <4A454BB6-06A1-4A84-A91D-09FDFBB6F4F6@jabber.org> References: <20080114143516.214060@gmx.net> <4A454BB6-06A1-4A84-A91D-09FDFBB6F4F6@jabber.org> Message-ID: <50899.66.243.196.131.1200361654.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> They are generally going to fail due to ambiguity. Information resolving ambiguity is most needed, not a definitive article on the subject. See Forum:The clogged search Fred Bauder > The intent (in my opinion at least) isn't to have an article for every > different query, but instead to provide a facility for anyone to > provide immediate human guidance when the automated results may fail > in some way. > > Jer > > On Jan 14, 2008, at 8:35 AM, Rainer Blome wrote: > >> [Second try, I used the wrong sender address with the first one.] >> >> Hi. Missing a "free" search engine, I was delighted to read of >> Wikia Search. >> And it looks like a good beginning. >> >> Has anyone got any idea how far the concept of creating one mini >> article per search query can be taken? Is it possible to keep up >> indefinitely? >> >> It appears to me that the number of different queries can quickly >> reach millions, and billions in the long run. >> Mini articles will not be written for every query. >> What is the ratio between number of new queries and number of mini >> articles writen? >> >> Looking for this topic, I found only this: >>> From jwales at wikia.com Thu Jan 4 00:51:34 2007 >>> peter burden wrote: >>>> the scale of the whole enterprise. Are we >>>> intending to outdo [...]? If so a long careful look at the >>>> numbers is called for. >>> Eh, I dunno. >> >> This may have been discussed elsewhere. If so, please provide a >> pointer. >> >> -- >> Rainer >> >> >> GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. >> Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail >> _______________________________________________ >> Search wiki mailing list >> http://search.wikia.com/ >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From jeremie at jabber.org Tue Jan 15 01:57:30 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:57:30 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki In-Reply-To: <50899.66.243.196.131.1200361654.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> References: <20080114143516.214060@gmx.net> <4A454BB6-06A1-4A84-A91D-09FDFBB6F4F6@jabber.org> <50899.66.243.196.131.1200361654.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> Message-ID: <8EBF7CB1-221C-4E37-96D7-3F7ABAD82283@jabber.org> What kind of tools (either part of or outside of the miniarticles) would help? I've always thought that a simple +keyword or -keyword utility within the MA might be a useful tool, where one-click would expand or contract your immediate search. Any other ideas along those lines that could help reduce the namespace issues and become more useful? Jer On Jan 14, 2008, at 7:47 PM, Fred Bauder wrote: > They are generally going to fail due to ambiguity. Information > resolving > ambiguity is most needed, not a definitive article on the subject. See > Forum:The clogged search > > Fred Bauder > >> The intent (in my opinion at least) isn't to have an article for >> every >> different query, but instead to provide a facility for anyone to >> provide immediate human guidance when the automated results may >> fail >> in some way. >> >> Jer >> >> On Jan 14, 2008, at 8:35 AM, Rainer Blome wrote: >> >>> [Second try, I used the wrong sender address with the first one.] >>> >>> Hi. Missing a "free" search engine, I was delighted to read of >>> Wikia Search. >>> And it looks like a good beginning. >>> >>> Has anyone got any idea how far the concept of creating one mini >>> article per search query can be taken? Is it possible to keep up >>> indefinitely? >>> >>> It appears to me that the number of different queries can quickly >>> reach millions, and billions in the long run. >>> Mini articles will not be written for every query. >>> What is the ratio between number of new queries and number of mini >>> articles writen? >>> >>> Looking for this topic, I found only this: >>>> From jwales at wikia.com Thu Jan 4 00:51:34 2007 >>>> peter burden wrote: >>>>> the scale of the whole enterprise. Are we >>>>> intending to outdo [...]? If so a long careful look at the >>>>> numbers is called for. >>>> Eh, I dunno. >>> >>> This may have been discussed elsewhere. If so, please provide a >>> pointer. >>> >>> -- >>> Rainer >>> >>> >>> GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. >>> Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/ >>> freemail >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Search wiki mailing list >>> http://search.wikia.com/ >>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Search wiki mailing list >> http://search.wikia.com/ >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > > > > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Tue Jan 15 03:00:39 2008 From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:00:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Search wiki] [Fwd: Re: Scale of Search wiki] Message-ID: <51427.66.243.196.131.1200366039.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki From: "Fred Bauder" Date: Mon, January 14, 2008 9:40 pm To: If you take the example of Joseph Smith -mormon does quite a bit, but not nearly enough. The mini article could contain for each resolution of the ambiguity a set of + and - keywords which makes progress toward resolution. It would be useful if the user could check the suggested keywords they wanted to use on the miniarticle page, like in a checkbox, and then run a search configured in that way. There would be space for writing in keywords of the user's devising. The work of composing the miniarticle would be to identify the keywords which reduce hits about known cloggers and increase hits about the subject sought. Inclusion in a list of ambiguous terms is very different from Wikipedia, where the criteria is notability. Here it is volume. Anything which generates thousands of clogging hits presents a problem, notable or not. Like with apple which has a relatively simple disambiguation, + or - computer, + or - software, + or - iPod In that case, using the minuses, the hits are reduced by half on a Google search, but still almost all Apple inc. +fruit does wonders, but still yields 3 million. I will try to come up with more tools. I suppose we could ask users to tell us whether particular hits are computer company, fruit, record company, or someone's name. If they included "apple" in a search that feedback tool could come up for each hit. The question of whether a particular hit, without more, is useful depends very much on what they were searching for. We could even, before running the search, if "apple" has been entered as a term, ask the user which of the disambiguations, if any, they are searching for, and serve up the appropriate results, if we had the hits tagged. Fred Bauder > What kind of tools (either part of or outside of the miniarticles) > would help? > > I've always thought that a simple +keyword or -keyword utility within > the MA might be a useful tool, where one-click would expand or > contract your immediate search. Any other ideas along those lines > that could help reduce the namespace issues and become more useful? > > Jer > > On Jan 14, 2008, at 7:47 PM, Fred Bauder wrote: > >> They are generally going to fail due to ambiguity. Information >> resolving >> ambiguity is most needed, not a definitive article on the subject. >> See Forum:The clogged search >> >> Fred Bauder >> >>> The intent (in my opinion at least) isn't to have an article for >>> every >>> different query, but instead to provide a facility for anyone to >>> provide immediate human guidance when the automated results may fail >>> in some way. >>> >>> Jer >>> >>> On Jan 14, 2008, at 8:35 AM, Rainer Blome wrote: >>> >>>> [Second try, I used the wrong sender address with the first one.] >>>> >>>> Hi. Missing a "free" search engine, I was delighted to read of >>>> Wikia Search. >>>> And it looks like a good beginning. >>>> >>>> Has anyone got any idea how far the concept of creating one mini >>>> article per search query can be taken? Is it possible to keep up >>>> indefinitely? >>>> >>>> It appears to me that the number of different queries can quickly >>>> reach millions, and billions in the long run. >>>> Mini articles will not be written for every query. >>>> What is the ratio between number of new queries and number of mini >>>> articles writen? >>>> >>>> Looking for this topic, I found only this: >>>>> From jwales at wikia.com Thu Jan 4 00:51:34 2007 >>>>> peter burden wrote: >>>>>> the scale of the whole enterprise. Are we >>>>>> intending to outdo [...]? If so a long careful look at the >>>>>> numbers is called for. >>>>> Eh, I dunno. >>>> >>>> This may have been discussed elsewhere. If so, please provide a >>>> pointer. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Rainer >>>> >>>> >>>> GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. >>>> Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/ >>>> freemail >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Search wiki mailing list >>>> http://search.wikia.com/ >>>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Search wiki mailing list >>> http://search.wikia.com/ >>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Search wiki mailing list >> http://search.wikia.com/ >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From jwales at wikia.com Tue Jan 15 06:29:14 2008 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:29:14 +0400 Subject: [Search wiki] Close either main or Mini namespace In-Reply-To: <20080114143310.214000@gmx.net> References: <20080114143310.214000@gmx.net> Message-ID: <478C52BA.9060808@wikia.com> I think this makes sense a lot... what I would propose is: mainspace is article space... get rid of mini. And then search: and/or wikia: space is used for "meta" pages. Rainer Blome wrote: > Hi! > Please see > http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Suggest_to_forbid_new_articles_in_main_namespace , the gist of which is this: > > For whatever reason, some new articles intended for search engine users (mini articles), ranging from ten to fifty per day, are created in the main instead of in the Mini namespace. > > I see two ways to deal with this: Either effectively prevent main pages, or make them the norm. > > Disabling the creation of new pages in the main namespace would make it clearer that the main namespace is off limits for mini articles. > The wiki pages with project content (contents of the "Search" wiki) should instead be created in a dedicated namespace, for example "search:". > > Assuming that mini articles pose the majority in this wiki (if not yet, they soon will be), an alternative approach suggests itself: > > Drop the "Mini:" prefix altogether. First move all articles currently in the main namespace to "search:", then move all mini articles to the main namespace. The search engine would then have to look for mini articles in the main namespace. > > The latter may be the simpler approach in the long run, especially for the users. It is less confusing, and allows for easier copying of existing content from Wikipedia, especially disambiguation pages. > > Rainer > From jwales at wikia.com Tue Jan 15 06:31:41 2008 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:31:41 +0400 Subject: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki In-Reply-To: <20080114143516.214060@gmx.net> References: <20080114143516.214060@gmx.net> Message-ID: <478C534D.7040804@wikia.com> I think it does not scale very well... one of the things we want to make widely available (and soon!) is a list of the most popular search terms, sorted and ranked. These have to be carefully screened for privacy implications (i.e. we need to make sure that a search has been done by 10 different ip numbers over an extended period of time or something). But writing mini articles is only ever going to cover the "fat head" not the "long tail" of search, for sure. Even the first million most popular search terms, if we become as successful a wiki as major language wikipedias, would not cover the long tail. Rainer Blome wrote: > [Second try, I used the wrong sender address with the first one.] > > Hi. Missing a "free" search engine, I was delighted to read of Wikia Search. > And it looks like a good beginning. > > Has anyone got any idea how far the concept of creating one mini article per search query can be taken? Is it possible to keep up indefinitely? > > It appears to me that the number of different queries can quickly reach millions, and billions in the long run. > Mini articles will not be written for every query. > What is the ratio between number of new queries and number of mini articles writen? > > Looking for this topic, I found only this: >>From jwales at wikia.com Thu Jan 4 00:51:34 2007 >> peter burden wrote: >>> the scale of the whole enterprise. Are we >>> intending to outdo [...]? If so a long careful look at the >>> numbers is called for. >> Eh, I dunno. > > This may have been discussed elsewhere. If so, please provide a pointer. > From newsmarkie at googlemail.com Tue Jan 15 16:39:23 2008 From: newsmarkie at googlemail.com (Mark (Markie)) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:39:23 +0000 Subject: [Search wiki] Close either main or Mini namespace In-Reply-To: <478C52BA.9060808@wikia.com> References: <20080114143310.214000@gmx.net> <478C52BA.9060808@wikia.com> Message-ID: yup seems good to me also :-) maybe we could move all minis: to the mainspace and then use search: for the current main space pages. i think the moves can be done via db edits ( i hope) otherwise we will need a move bot :-) thanks mark On Jan 15, 2008 6:29 AM, Jimmy Wales wrote: > I think this makes sense a lot... > > what I would propose is: > > mainspace is article space... get rid of mini. > > And then search: and/or wikia: space is used for "meta" pages. > > > > Rainer Blome wrote: > > Hi! > > Please see > > > http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Suggest_to_forbid_new_articles_in_main_namespace, the gist of which is this: > > > > For whatever reason, some new articles intended for search engine users > (mini articles), ranging from ten to fifty per day, are created in the main > instead of in the Mini namespace. > > > > I see two ways to deal with this: Either effectively prevent main pages, > or make them the norm. > > > > Disabling the creation of new pages in the main namespace would make it > clearer that the main namespace is off limits for mini articles. > > The wiki pages with project content (contents of the "Search" wiki) > should instead be created in a dedicated namespace, for example "search:". > > > > Assuming that mini articles pose the majority in this wiki (if not yet, > they soon will be), an alternative approach suggests itself: > > > > Drop the "Mini:" prefix altogether. First move all articles currently > in the main namespace to "search:", then move all mini articles to the main > namespace. The search engine would then have to look for mini articles in > the main namespace. > > > > The latter may be the simpler approach in the long run, especially for > the users. It is less confusing, and allows for easier copying of existing > content from Wikipedia, especially disambiguation pages. > > > > Rainer > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080115/a23fb229/attachment.html From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Tue Jan 15 16:59:49 2008 From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:59:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Search wiki] Close either main or Mini namespace In-Reply-To: References: <20080114143310.214000@gmx.net> <478C52BA.9060808@wikia.com> Message-ID: <55557.66.243.196.131.1200416389.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> Maybe we could keep the mini namespace for brief articles about subjects, or words and phrases, and devote the main article to disambiguation and search issues that the title brings up. Suggestions about keywords to add or subtract to get particular results, etc. The search namespace seem the appropriate place for policy and editing guidelines. Fred Bauder > yup seems good to me also :-) maybe we could move all minis: to the > mainspace and then use search: for the current main space pages. i > think the moves can be done via db edits ( i hope) otherwise we will > need a move bot :-) > > thanks > > mark > > On Jan 15, 2008 6:29 AM, Jimmy Wales wrote: > >> I think this makes sense a lot... >> >> what I would propose is: >> >> mainspace is article space... get rid of mini. >> >> And then search: and/or wikia: space is used for "meta" pages. >> >> >> >> Rainer Blome wrote: >> > Hi! >> > Please see >> > >> http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Suggest_to_forbid_new_articles_in_main_namespace, >> the gist of which is this: >> > >> > For whatever reason, some new articles intended for search engine >> users >> (mini articles), ranging from ten to fifty per day, are created in the >> main instead of in the Mini namespace. >> > >> > I see two ways to deal with this: Either effectively prevent main >> pages, >> or make them the norm. >> > >> > Disabling the creation of new pages in the main namespace would make >> it >> clearer that the main namespace is off limits for mini articles. >> > The wiki pages with project content (contents of the "Search" wiki) >> should instead be created in a dedicated namespace, for example >> "search:". >> > >> > Assuming that mini articles pose the majority in this wiki (if not >> yet, >> they soon will be), an alternative approach suggests itself: >> > >> > Drop the "Mini:" prefix altogether. First move all articles >> currently >> in the main namespace to "search:", then move all mini articles to the >> main namespace. The search engine would then have to look for mini >> articles in the main namespace. >> > >> > The latter may be the simpler approach in the long run, especially >> for >> the users. It is less confusing, and allows for easier copying of >> existing content from Wikipedia, especially disambiguation pages. >> > >> > Rainer >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Search wiki mailing list >> http://search.wikia.com/ >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From emijrp at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 22:18:54 2008 From: emijrp at gmail.com (emijrp) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:18:54 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki In-Reply-To: <8EBF7CB1-221C-4E37-96D7-3F7ABAD82283@jabber.org> References: <20080114143516.214060@gmx.net> <4A454BB6-06A1-4A84-A91D-09FDFBB6F4F6@jabber.org> <50899.66.243.196.131.1200361654.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <8EBF7CB1-221C-4E37-96D7-3F7ABAD82283@jabber.org> Message-ID: <478D314E.8080607@gmail.com> Perhaps, a list of suggestions is more flexible that a +/-keyword. Also, a relevant (free) image in each result page for biographies searches maybe a quick way to check that you are in the correct place. regards, emijrp From balinny at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 23:33:53 2008 From: balinny at gmail.com (Balinny) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 00:33:53 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki In-Reply-To: <8EBF7CB1-221C-4E37-96D7-3F7ABAD82283@jabber.org> References: <20080114143516.214060@gmx.net> <4A454BB6-06A1-4A84-A91D-09FDFBB6F4F6@jabber.org> <50899.66.243.196.131.1200361654.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <8EBF7CB1-221C-4E37-96D7-3F7ABAD82283@jabber.org> Message-ID: <478D42E1.5040701@gmail.com> jer wrote: > What kind of tools (either part of or outside of the miniarticles) > would help? > > I've always thought that a simple +keyword or -keyword utility within > the MA might be a useful tool, where one-click would expand or > contract your immediate search. Any other ideas along those lines > that could help reduce the namespace issues and become more useful? > > Jer > That would mean the ability of creating sets for a given query string. Nice but probably not easy to do and even harder to do group with what an human would do. Also note when expanding/contracting search: http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Prealpha_feature_requests#Search_on_not_viewed_sites From rainer.blome at gmx.de Tue Jan 15 23:52:44 2008 From: rainer.blome at gmx.de (Rainer Blome) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 00:52:44 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] New FAQ page Message-ID: <20080115235244.115220@gmx.net> Dear searchwikians, I would like to invite you to help prepare http://search.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ for more prominent publication. So far, I have found no other FAQ document. If there is, please point me there. There exist links to the FAQ page from elsewhere, but not from the main page. At the moment the page consists mainly of questions. I would like it to give more answers before it is linked to from the main page. -- Ciao, Rainer Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger?did=10 From rainer.blome at gmx.de Wed Jan 16 00:20:25 2008 From: rainer.blome at gmx.de (Rainer Blome) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 01:20:25 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki Message-ID: <20080116002025.115200@gmx.net> Jer wrote: > The intent (in my opinion at least) isn't to have an article for > every different query Rainer wrote: >> Mini articles will not be written for every query. >> What is the ratio between number of new queries and number of mini >> articles written? I was asking for the current situation here. What do the logs tell? How many different search queries so far? How many mini-articles so far? >> ...the concept of creating one mini article per search query... I phrased this wrong. I should have written "concept of associating mini articles directly with search queries". Don't get me wrong, I love it the way it is (ignoring character case and similar issues). And I would love it to stay that way, so... >> Has anyone got any idea how far [the concept] can be taken? How many articles should the current system be able to handle? The overhead of a mini-article plays a role here. How much additional disk space does the average additional mini-article need? >> Is it possible to keep up indefinitely? This obviously depends on the expected number of mini-articles, or rather the expected growth rate. To estimate this, we need the "minis per unique query" ratio described above. -- Ciao, Rainer Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger?did=10 From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Wed Jan 16 01:37:08 2008 From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:37:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Search wiki] Transparency, Community, Quality, and Privacy Message-ID: <49296.66.243.196.131.1200447428.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> I have created a page: search:Four Organizing Principles Those are Transparency, Community, Quality, and Privacy. The page has links to a policy article on each of the four principles. They await input. I'm not sure what the proper content of these ought to be, although I talked a bit about privacy on IRC today. That, it seems, has mainly to do, as far as users of the search function, with not tracking and recording their searches. I think there may be some practices we might follow which respect the privacy of the objects of search also. http://search.wikia.com/wiki/search:Four_Organizing_Principles Fred Bauder From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Wed Jan 16 01:51:25 2008 From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:51:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Search wiki] New FAQ page In-Reply-To: <20080115235244.115220@gmx.net> References: <20080115235244.115220@gmx.net> Message-ID: <49444.66.243.196.131.1200448285.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> I have moved this to Help:FAQ where I think it ought to be, we will probably have an article on "FAQ" at FAQ in the future. Moving it there involved writing over an old Help:FAQ which is about Wikia and which is slated to be moved to Central Wikia. There is no Help:FAQ at Central Wikia, but the old FAQ is quite outdated so it wouldn't do to simply move it. By the way, I could not get the move function to work. It says I specified no target, but it gives me no chance to do so. Fred Bauder > Dear searchwikians, I would like to invite you to help prepare > http://search.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ for more prominent publication. > > So far, I have found no other FAQ document. If there is, please point > me there. > > There exist links to the FAQ page from elsewhere, but not from the main > page. At the moment the page consists mainly of questions. > I would like it to give more answers before it is linked to from the > main page. > > -- > Ciao, Rainer > > > Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? > Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger?did=10 > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From borboleta at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 02:09:16 2008 From: borboleta at gmail.com (Bani) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 00:09:16 -0200 Subject: [Search wiki] New FAQ page In-Reply-To: <49444.66.243.196.131.1200448285.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> References: <20080115235244.115220@gmx.net> <49444.66.243.196.131.1200448285.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> Message-ID: <35b94d690801151809m4faace7w9bd948336d1ea93e@mail.gmail.com> The Move link is broken but you can move it "manually". What you do is append / + name of the article at the end of the URL you get after clicking on Move. So, for instance, to move FAQ you'd enter the address http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Movepage/FAQ Bani On Jan 15, 2008 11:51 PM, Fred Bauder wrote: > I have moved this to Help:FAQ where I think it ought to be, we will > probably have an article on "FAQ" at FAQ in the future. Moving it there > involved writing over an old Help:FAQ which is about Wikia and which is > slated to be moved to Central Wikia. There is no Help:FAQ at Central > Wikia, but the old FAQ is quite outdated so it wouldn't do to simply move > it. By the way, I could not get the move function to work. It says I > specified no target, but it gives me no chance to do so. > > Fred Bauder > > > > Dear searchwikians, I would like to invite you to help prepare > > http://search.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ for more prominent publication. > > > > So far, I have found no other FAQ document. If there is, please point > > me there. > > > > There exist links to the FAQ page from elsewhere, but not from the main > > page. At the moment the page consists mainly of questions. > > I would like it to give more answers before it is linked to from the > > main page. > > > > -- > > Ciao, Rainer > > > > > > Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? > > Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger?did=10 > > _______________________________________________ > > Search wiki mailing list > > http://search.wikia.com/ > > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > > > > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Wed Jan 16 02:02:50 2008 From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:02:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki In-Reply-To: <478D314E.8080607@gmail.com> References: <20080114143516.214060@gmx.net> <4A454BB6-06A1-4A84-A91D-09FDFBB6F4F6@jabber.org> <50899.66.243.196.131.1200361654.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <8EBF7CB1-221C-4E37-96D7-3F7ABAD82283@jabber.org> <478D314E.8080607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49518.66.243.196.131.1200448970.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> > Perhaps, a list of suggestions is more flexible that a +/-keyword. Also, > a relevant (free) image in each result page for biographies searches > maybe a quick way to check that you are in the correct place. Yes, I think we are getting a little paternalistic with keywords. We can reasonably expect users to know how to -this +that and "this and that". Images for name disambiguation is a great idea. Those who want to be found will happily provide an image, those who don't, thus have an opportunity to opt out a bit. I think we should consider even stronger opting out measures for living private persons who are not notable. Fred Bauder From balinny at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 14:33:06 2008 From: balinny at gmail.com (Balinny) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:33:06 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] New FAQ page In-Reply-To: <35b94d690801151809m4faace7w9bd948336d1ea93e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080115235244.115220@gmx.net> <49444.66.243.196.131.1200448285.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <35b94d690801151809m4faace7w9bd948336d1ea93e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <478E15A2.6050804@gmail.com> Bani wrote: > The Move link is broken but you can move it "manually". What you do is > append / + name of the article at the end of the URL you get after > clicking on Move. > So, for instance, to move FAQ you'd enter the address > http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Movepage/FAQ > > Bani > > Yes, i had already mentioned that to Angela http://search.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Angela#Problem_reports I have fixed it for now at MediaWiki:Common.js (oddly, Mediawiki:Searchwikia.js isn't loaded). From jwales at wikia.com Wed Jan 16 18:34:31 2008 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy Wales) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:34:31 +0400 Subject: [Search wiki] New FAQ page In-Reply-To: <20080115235244.115220@gmx.net> References: <20080115235244.115220@gmx.net> Message-ID: <478E4E37.3050601@wikia.com> Rainer, Wo wohnst du? M?nchen, vielleicht? Ich komme bald nach M?nchen. Ok, my German is still quite limited but I think you understand me. :-) I will be in Munich Sunday and Monday, if perhaps you are there, we could meet.... just a random question. :) Rainer Blome wrote: > Dear searchwikians, I would like to invite you to help prepare http://search.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ > for more prominent publication. > > So far, I have found no other FAQ document. If there is, please point me there. > > There exist links to the FAQ page from elsewhere, but not from the main page. > At the moment the page consists mainly of questions. > I would like it to give more answers before it is linked to from the main page. > From rainer.blome at gmx.de Thu Jan 17 10:52:23 2008 From: rainer.blome at gmx.de (Rainer Blome) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:52:23 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] New FAQ page Message-ID: <20080117105223.117880@gmx.net> Jimmy, Danke f?r die Einladung! I'm a bit surprised that you wrote it to the mailing list, are you trying to single me out or just showing off your German (;-)? M?nchen is about four hours of travel from where I live. What kind of meeting do you have in mind in Munich? Trying to find out what you are up to, I searched for "m?nchen wiki" and found NPOV (read: not entirely positive :-) articles about Wikia Search. In this line, you might want to have a look at http://search.wikia.com/index.php?title=Forum:Setting_expectations . Rainer -- Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger?did=10 From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Sun Jan 20 20:02:26 2008 From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:02:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Search wiki] Forum:Main Namespace Message-ID: <61658.66.243.196.131.1200859346.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> Please see Forum:Main Namespace for a proposal to use the main namespace (the address without a prefix such as mini) for in-depth analysis of searches using that particular word of phrase, leaving a brief orienting article in the mini namespace. How it would work is shown at Mini:Innocence (search on the site for innocence ) Innocence is a 26 million hit Google search. Fred Bauder From beesley at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 07:05:09 2008 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:05:09 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] international documentation guideline In-Reply-To: <47943498.40909@jcom.home.ne.jp> References: <47943498.40909@jcom.home.ne.jp> Message-ID: <8b722b800801202305q44986542se7df7817e57e336b@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 21, 2008 4:58 PM, Shun Fukuzawa wrote: > Hi, > > I got Japanese volunteer to help wikia search. Then, though I intend to > start translation for some documents into Japanese, where should I > translate documents? Now, some translation docs of search_wikia are > located on search_wikia's subpage, should I follow a such rule? Are you talking about pages related to Wikia Search, or the mini-articles? For pages about Wikia, like the home page and FAQ, then a subpage like [[FAQ/ja]] is best for now until these become separate wikis. For the mini-articles, it's more complicated since they are all likely to soon move to the main namespace, so I suggest waiting until after that before deciding where to put translations. Angela From jeremie at jabber.org Wed Jan 23 10:01:46 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 04:01:46 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Forum:Main Namespace In-Reply-To: <61658.66.243.196.131.1200859346.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> References: <61658.66.243.196.131.1200859346.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> Message-ID: <651E3CD5-EEB5-4781-A84D-8F0E13732062@jabber.org> Has anyone proposed just dedicating a wiki host to the mini articles? http://mini.search.wikia.com/Article And using that same kind of solution for international hosts as well? http://es.mini.search.wikia.com/... http://hans.mini.search.wikia.com/... and so on Or is it better to do one wiki and Article/es, Article/hans, etc? Jer On Jan 20, 2008, at 2:02 PM, Fred Bauder wrote: > Please see Forum:Main Namespace for a proposal to use the main > namespace > (the address without a prefix such as mini) for in-depth analysis of > searches using that particular word of phrase, leaving a brief > orienting > article in the mini namespace. How it would work is shown at > Mini:Innocence (search on the site for innocence ) Innocence is a 26 > million hit Google search. > > Fred Bauder > > > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From beesley at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 10:09:19 2008 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:09:19 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] Forum:Main Namespace In-Reply-To: <651E3CD5-EEB5-4781-A84D-8F0E13732062@jabber.org> References: <61658.66.243.196.131.1200859346.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <651E3CD5-EEB5-4781-A84D-8F0E13732062@jabber.org> Message-ID: <8b722b800801230209p4621cd23m62bef7b0142c3988@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 23, 2008 9:01 PM, jer wrote: > Has anyone proposed just dedicating a wiki host to the mini articles? > > http://mini.search.wikia.com/Article The only disadvantage is the length. search.wikia.com is just easier to link to. I'd prefer to move the stuff about search elsewhere and keep search.wikia.com for the mini-articles. > And using that same kind of solution for international hosts as well? > > http://es.mini.search.wikia.com/... > http://hans.mini.search.wikia.com/... Eventually, this will happen for some languages, but we don't have communities in every language to maintain that. It's also tricky to see at the moment how this would tie in with the search results page. If you're searching from Germany, do you only get the mini-articles from de.search.wikia.com? For many languages, there isn't going to be any content except in English. Angela From jeremie at jabber.org Wed Jan 23 10:33:31 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 04:33:31 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Forum:Main Namespace In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801230209p4621cd23m62bef7b0142c3988@mail.gmail.com> References: <61658.66.243.196.131.1200859346.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <651E3CD5-EEB5-4781-A84D-8F0E13732062@jabber.org> <8b722b800801230209p4621cd23m62bef7b0142c3988@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <29F683D8-3C54-40A9-ABB3-46635A7ADF70@jabber.org> >> Has anyone proposed just dedicating a wiki host to the mini articles? >> >> http://mini.search.wikia.com/Article > > The only disadvantage is the length. search.wikia.com is just easier > to link to. I'd prefer to move the stuff about search elsewhere and > keep search.wikia.com for the mini-articles. Ahhh, but alas the 99% of the traffic will be coming straight from the search result screen, the actual hostname is almost insignificant as you can get to it by clicking there quite easily and transparently. We really need a good general purpose try/share/test anything wiki somewhere too, I don't like having to choose between the two to treat differently :( What if we set up a proxy and merge all the hosts together? http://search.wikia.com/wiki/* - general purpose / community http://search.wikia.com/mini/* - own mini namespace http://search.wikia.com/profiles/* - what's currently on alpha. http://search.wikia.com/search/ - results The first two would be separate MW instances? Even if the mapping together is silly, I'd still opt for having another hostname for minis :) >> And using that same kind of solution for international hosts as well? >> >> http://es.mini.search.wikia.com/... >> http://hans.mini.search.wikia.com/... > > Eventually, this will happen for some languages, but we don't have > communities in every language to maintain that. It's also tricky to > see at the moment how this would tie in with the search results page. > If you're searching from Germany, do you only get the mini-articles > from de.search.wikia.com? For many languages, there isn't going to be > any content except in English. > The browser sends the preferred languages, combined with any preferences by hostname (if we made a french search results page for instance), combined with any future geoip preference, and we have an ordered list of all language possibilities for a given request. We return the highest preference and *also* a list of what other languages that mini is available in that is easily clickable for the user to switch between. Is there a better suggestion that I missed? I'm a little behind and obviously catching up so there probably is :) Jer From beesley at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 10:39:37 2008 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:39:37 +1100 Subject: [Search wiki] Forum:Main Namespace In-Reply-To: <29F683D8-3C54-40A9-ABB3-46635A7ADF70@jabber.org> References: <61658.66.243.196.131.1200859346.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <651E3CD5-EEB5-4781-A84D-8F0E13732062@jabber.org> <8b722b800801230209p4621cd23m62bef7b0142c3988@mail.gmail.com> <29F683D8-3C54-40A9-ABB3-46635A7ADF70@jabber.org> Message-ID: <8b722b800801230239t2a6980a7pe64385f49c1bd3b1@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 23, 2008 9:33 PM, jer wrote: > > Ahhh, but alas the 99% of the traffic will be coming straight from > the search result screen, the actual hostname is almost insignificant If the mini-articles contain quality information, people will link to them from elsewhere. I think these pages have the potential to be useful in many more contexts than just Wikia Search. The mini-article on Visvo is the 3rd hit in... that other search engine and I expect a lot of people will come across mini-articles that way. http://www.google.com/search?q=Visvo Angela From jeremie at jabber.org Wed Jan 23 14:45:07 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:45:07 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Forum:Main Namespace In-Reply-To: <8b722b800801230239t2a6980a7pe64385f49c1bd3b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <61658.66.243.196.131.1200859346.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <651E3CD5-EEB5-4781-A84D-8F0E13732062@jabber.org> <8b722b800801230209p4621cd23m62bef7b0142c3988@mail.gmail.com> <29F683D8-3C54-40A9-ABB3-46635A7ADF70@jabber.org> <8b722b800801230239t2a6980a7pe64385f49c1bd3b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <878E6F67-FBF2-4889-88B2-0C089FB19A72@jabber.org> > If the mini-articles contain quality information, people will link to > them from elsewhere. I think these pages have the potential to be > useful in many more contexts than just Wikia Search. That raises an interesting question, should they even be accessible outside of the search result screen? What if you can only view a mini-article in it's native environment, in a search result? We're all still learning exactly what they are of course, so my $0.02 is that their very definition is being part of a search result and any other uses may be diluting their value as that. > The mini-article on Visvo is the 3rd hit in... that other search > engine and I expect a lot of people will come across mini-articles > that way. http://www.google.com/search?q=Visvo Even still, http://mini.search.wikia.com vs. http://search.wikia.com seems pretty insignificant a difference there? Jer From newsmarkie at googlemail.com Wed Jan 23 17:07:41 2008 From: newsmarkie at googlemail.com (Mark (Markie)) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:07:41 +0000 Subject: [Search wiki] Forum:Main Namespace In-Reply-To: <878E6F67-FBF2-4889-88B2-0C089FB19A72@jabber.org> References: <61658.66.243.196.131.1200859346.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <651E3CD5-EEB5-4781-A84D-8F0E13732062@jabber.org> <8b722b800801230209p4621cd23m62bef7b0142c3988@mail.gmail.com> <29F683D8-3C54-40A9-ABB3-46635A7ADF70@jabber.org> <8b722b800801230239t2a6980a7pe64385f49c1bd3b1@mail.gmail.com> <878E6F67-FBF2-4889-88B2-0C089FB19A72@jabber.org> Message-ID: Jer wrote: > Even still, http://mini.search.wikia.com vs. http://search.wikia.com > seems pretty insignificant a difference there? > > hehe tha would be four letters then :-) mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080123/fddaf634/attachment.html From newsmarkie at googlemail.com Wed Jan 23 17:43:10 2008 From: newsmarkie at googlemail.com (Mark (Markie)) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:43:10 +0000 Subject: [Search wiki] Forum:Main Namespace In-Reply-To: References: <61658.66.243.196.131.1200859346.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <651E3CD5-EEB5-4781-A84D-8F0E13732062@jabber.org> <8b722b800801230209p4621cd23m62bef7b0142c3988@mail.gmail.com> <29F683D8-3C54-40A9-ABB3-46635A7ADF70@jabber.org> <8b722b800801230239t2a6980a7pe64385f49c1bd3b1@mail.gmail.com> <878E6F67-FBF2-4889-88B2-0C089FB19A72@jabber.org> Message-ID: whilst were on cool thinks to do with minis i'm thinking that it would be nice to have an "edit this" link that opens a nice shiny (WYSIWYG?) editor on the same page. it more user friendly esp for newbies and we then wouldnt have to have such a newbie friendly wiki, maybe just one (a bit more organised than now :-) to do deletions etc. but maybe we just go with the editor and also do the other changes jer suggested?? thoughts?? mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080123/149eebbc/attachment.html From jeremie at jabber.org Wed Jan 23 17:48:45 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:48:45 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Forum:Main Namespace In-Reply-To: References: <61658.66.243.196.131.1200859346.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <651E3CD5-EEB5-4781-A84D-8F0E13732062@jabber.org> <8b722b800801230209p4621cd23m62bef7b0142c3988@mail.gmail.com> <29F683D8-3C54-40A9-ABB3-46635A7ADF70@jabber.org> <8b722b800801230239t2a6980a7pe64385f49c1bd3b1@mail.gmail.com> <878E6F67-FBF2-4889-88B2-0C089FB19A72@jabber.org> Message-ID: Yeah, we were just chatting about this in the IRC channel #searchwikia on freenode, if we can embed the editor/editing-process directly into the search results page, wouldn't that make it a lot easier and more friendly? Jer On Jan 23, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Mark (Markie) wrote: > whilst were on cool thinks to do with minis i'm thinking that it > would be nice to have an "edit this" link that opens a nice shiny > (WYSIWYG?) editor on the same page. it more user friendly esp for > newbies and we then wouldnt have to have such a newbie friendly > wiki, maybe just one (a bit more organised than now :-) to do > deletions etc. but maybe we just go with the editor and also do the > other changes jer suggested?? > > thoughts?? > > > mark > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From rainer.blome at gmx.de Thu Jan 24 19:59:46 2008 From: rainer.blome at gmx.de (Rainer Blome) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:59:46 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki Message-ID: <20080124195946.222910@gmx.net> Jimmy Wales wrote: > writing mini articles is only ever going to cover the "fat head" not > the "long tail" of search, for sure. Surely the set of queries can never be entirely covered by human editing, because it is too big and changing too fast. But it is possible and can be beneficial to cover some of the tail. Wikia Search is already doing it. Here's why: It depends on how you define "cover", "head" and "long tail". Let us define "cover a query" here as "there is a edited content for the query" (at Wikia Search that would be a mini-article). In the "tail" picture, the position of a query on the x-axis is defined by the frequency of the query, right? Let me define two more notions: "Dense" coverage means that all or most queries are covered, of a given set. "Sparse" coverage means that it is not dense, that only some queries are covered. Some search services expressly aim for dense coverage, down to a certain frequency. However, coverage does not have to be dense to make a search service useful, it can be beneficial to sparsely cover queries. At Wikia Search, coverage does not need to be dense. The coverage is determined by the users themselves. As an example, the first user searches for something, and doesn't find an answer at first, then finds an answer and writes a mini article about it. Then a second user comes along and finds the mini-article straight away. The frequency of the query would be "two" at this point, positioning it almost at the end of the "long tail". Yet it was covered all right. This can have two effects: First, that new queries can be covered *very* quickly (starting from the second occurrence of the query). Methods using the query frequency do not care about new queries until they notice a significant number of these queries. Second, that rare queries *can* be covered (not all of them, of course, but at least those that can be answered). This is one of the features of Wikia Search that I love. As an aside, both properties contribute to NPOV, because they allow coverage of queries that are not mainstream yet or never will be. > Even the first million most > popular search terms, if we become as successful a wiki as major > language wikipedias, would not cover the long tail. A million human-edited articles is, I assume, much better than just 10 000. And they would sparsely cover some of the "long tail". By the way, Wikia Search delivered excellent results when I searched for "long tail", among them [http://www.longtail.com/the_long_tail/2008/01/the-fat-tail-wi.html The fat tail will be human, the medium tail social, the long tail algorithmic]. Currently, "social" is effectively the same as "human", but I assume that "human" was supposed to mean "editorial". In the analogy used there, Wikia Search's mini-articles would cover the "medium tail" (or "fat middle", as it should have been). Some day, "search query" wikis such as the Wikia Search one will densely cover the fat middle. To me, the question is not if, but when, how many, and which ones. The race is on. Rainer -- GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Thu Jan 24 22:57:18 2008 From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:57:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace Message-ID: <53234.66.243.196.131.1201215438.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini articles are awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make internal linking more straightforward. There is also the question of what the content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief articles about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article. Another is adding significant material about disambiguation of the term. Either alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the mini namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains of what the main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the search namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you are confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front of it ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]). As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini articles as a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main namespace for an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to get good results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user base would actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although I find it enjoyable. There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at Forum:Main Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy page at search:Main namespace Fred Bauder From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Fri Jan 25 01:14:38 2008 From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:14:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace In-Reply-To: <53234.66.243.196.131.1201215438.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> References: <53234.66.243.196.131.1201215438.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> Message-ID: <53845.66.243.196.131.1201223678.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> > As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini articles are > awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make internal > linking more straightforward. There is also the question of what the > content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief articles > about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article. Another is > adding significant material about disambiguation of the term. Either > alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the mini > namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains of what the > main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the search > namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you are > confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front of it > ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]). > > As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini articles as > a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main namespace for > an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions > regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to get good > results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user base would > actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although I find > it enjoyable. > > There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at Forum:Main > Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy page > at search:Main namespace > > Fred Bauder Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like: 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the "mini" content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for example in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would need to be extracted on the fly. Would this work? 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation article in the main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides some disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep the bulk of links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the large, detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis[ambiguation]" or "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/disambiguation" or "innocence (disambiguation)". My guess is that there will always be many more small articles than large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space will make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit" links in parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links. Currently, they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to refer to the small articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the links. --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC) Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and we could put policy in some other namespace such as policy. Fred From rainer.blome at gmx.de Fri Jan 25 01:24:06 2008 From: rainer.blome at gmx.de (Rainer Blome) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 02:24:06 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] Mini Articles and Use of the Main Namespace Message-ID: <20080125012406.294470@gmx.net> Why don't we keep this discussion on http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Main_Namespace ? Regarding the distinction between "mini" and "maxi" content, I sort of replied there. Fred Bauder fredbaud at fairpoint punkt net wrote: > reserve the main namespace for an intensive disambiguation of its subject, > including suggestions regarding how to [search effectively] My guess is that there will be relatively few content written along these lines, compared to "leaf content". There will be many mini articles with some content, but for which no one ever writes a disambiguation or "how to". To me it looks like a waste to reserve the main namespace for the relatively few "orientation" articles, even though they will probably be of higher average quality. Regarding [[search:Main namespace]], I would prefer if its text made clear that this it is a suggestion that was made, not a "provisional policy". Rainer -- GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Fri Jan 25 01:37:33 2008 From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:37:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Search wiki] Mini Articles and Use of the Main Namespace In-Reply-To: <20080125012406.294470@gmx.net> References: <20080125012406.294470@gmx.net> Message-ID: <53918.66.243.196.131.1201225053.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> > Why don't we keep this discussion on > http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Main_Namespace ? Regarding the > distinction between "mini" and "maxi" content, I sort of replied there. Because I was asked to post the issue here, which make sense as conversation about fundamental policies affecting the structure of the site needs to be where as many folks as possible can see it and participate. Fred Bauder > Fred Bauder fredbaud at fairpoint punkt net wrote: >> reserve the main namespace for an intensive disambiguation of its >> subject, including suggestions regarding how to [search effectively] > > My guess is that there will be relatively few content written along > these lines, compared to "leaf content". There will be many mini > articles with some content, but for which no one ever writes a > disambiguation or "how to". To me it looks like a waste to reserve the > main namespace for the relatively few "orientation" articles, even > though they will probably be of higher average quality. > > Regarding [[search:Main namespace]], I would prefer if its text made > clear that this it is a suggestion that was made, not a "provisional > policy". > > Rainer Let's see. Fred From jeremie at jabber.org Fri Jan 25 19:50:02 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:50:02 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki In-Reply-To: <20080124195946.222910@gmx.net> References: <20080124195946.222910@gmx.net> Message-ID: <59781F84-17EA-4650-87E8-E13A4995A30D@jabber.org> > ... [A lot of great commentary and feedback] ... > > Some day, "search query" wikis such as the Wikia Search one will > densely cover the fat middle. To me, the question is not if, but > when, how many, and which ones. The race is on. Although it's not present on the footers of the wiki yet (was lost w/ the new skin apparently), the mini articles are all under an open content license: http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia_copyrights. Jer From jeremie at jabber.org Fri Jan 25 22:49:09 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:49:09 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace In-Reply-To: <53845.66.243.196.131.1201223678.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> References: <53234.66.243.196.131.1201215438.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <53845.66.243.196.131.1201223678.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> Message-ID: <199B81D5-89FF-4EF1-9847-3206408C35D4@jabber.org> >> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini >> articles are >> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make >> internal >> linking more straightforward. My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be in- context, that you only see them in their search result. What reasons are there to view them outside of that context? >> There is also the question of what the >> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief >> articles >> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article. If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but when they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers to the search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service and not something that compliments one of the core functions of a search result, to direct people somewhere. >> Another is >> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term. Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always harder with algorithmic approaches. What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a problem to support that usage? >> Either >> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the mini >> namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains of >> what the >> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the search >> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you are >> confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front >> of it >> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]). >> >> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini >> articles as >> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main namespace >> for >> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions >> regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to >> get good >> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user base >> would >> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although I >> find >> it enjoyable. I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking that it might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular article on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are only viewed, created, and edited in the search result page directly. Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound reasonable? >> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at Forum:Main >> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy >> page >> at search:Main namespace >> >> Fred Bauder > > Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like: > > 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the "mini" > content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for example > in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would need to > be extracted on the fly. Would this work? > 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation article > in the > main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides some > disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep the bulk of > links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way > around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the large, > detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis[ambiguation]" or > "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/disambiguation" > or "innocence (disambiguation)". > My guess is that there will always be many more small articles > than > large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space will > make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit" links in > parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links. Currently, > they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to refer to the small > articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the links. > --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC) > > Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and we > could > put policy in some other namespace such as policy. If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so the regular articles are in the regular namespace. One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the "Mini:" namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a database of mini articles from any wiki on the web. Jer From jeremie at jabber.org Fri Jan 25 22:50:45 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:50:45 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Mini Articles and Use of the Main Namespace In-Reply-To: <53918.66.243.196.131.1201225053.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> References: <20080125012406.294470@gmx.net> <53918.66.243.196.131.1201225053.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> Message-ID: <496F37F0-515B-4E91-8690-8BA6B6EB7913@jabber.org> >> Why don't we keep this discussion on >> http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Main_Namespace ? Regarding the >> distinction between "mini" and "maxi" content, I sort of replied >> there. > > Because I was asked to post the issue here, which make sense as > conversation about fundamental policies affecting the structure of the > site needs to be where as many folks as possible can see it and > participate. That was me that asked, I've honestly not had enough attention to additionally cover/track the forums on the wiki :( Jer From newsmarkie at googlemail.com Fri Jan 25 22:59:54 2008 From: newsmarkie at googlemail.com (Mark (Markie)) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:59:54 +0000 Subject: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace In-Reply-To: <199B81D5-89FF-4EF1-9847-3206408C35D4@jabber.org> References: <53234.66.243.196.131.1201215438.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <53845.66.243.196.131.1201223678.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <199B81D5-89FF-4EF1-9847-3206408C35D4@jabber.org> Message-ID: hmm what would be peoples thought of using wp content in the main space, which could either be local copies or dynamically called, with local overwrite possible, so that we can have minis with "more here" which then links to pages which have either been specially adapted written locally or then just falls back onto wp (or should be just have a kinda "if local exists then use that, if not link directly to wp" thing) thoughts mark On Jan 25, 2008 10:49 PM, jer wrote: > >> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini > >> articles are > >> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make > >> internal > >> linking more straightforward. > > My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be in- > context, that you only see them in their search result. What reasons > are there to view them outside of that context? > > >> There is also the question of what the > >> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief > >> articles > >> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article. > > If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but when > they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers to the > search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service and not > something that compliments one of the core functions of a search > result, to direct people somewhere. > > >> Another is > >> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term. > > Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the > currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and > "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always > harder with algorithmic approaches. > > What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the > best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support > this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a > problem to support that usage? > > >> Either > >> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the mini > >> namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains of > >> what the > >> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the search > >> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you are > >> confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front > >> of it > >> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]). > >> > >> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini > >> articles as > >> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main namespace > >> for > >> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions > >> regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to > >> get good > >> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user base > >> would > >> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although I > >> find > >> it enjoyable. > > I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking that it > might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few > sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular article > on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are only viewed, > created, and edited in the search result page directly. > > Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound reasonable? > > >> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at Forum:Main > >> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy > >> page > >> at search:Main namespace > >> > >> Fred Bauder > > > > Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like: > > > > 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the "mini" > > content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for example > > in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would need to > > be extracted on the fly. Would this work? > > 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation article > > in the > > main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides some > > disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep the bulk of > > links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way > > around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the large, > > detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis[ambiguation]" or > > "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/disambiguation" > > or "innocence (disambiguation)". > > My guess is that there will always be many more small articles > > than > > large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space will > > make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit" links in > > parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links. Currently, > > they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to refer to the small > > articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the links. > > --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC) > > > > Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and we > > could > > put policy in some other namespace such as policy. > > If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search > result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so > the regular articles are in the regular namespace. > > One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the "Mini:" > namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a database of > mini articles from any wiki on the web. > > Jer > > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080125/dd1e081e/attachment.html From jeremie at jabber.org Sat Jan 26 00:14:45 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:14:45 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace In-Reply-To: References: <53234.66.243.196.131.1201215438.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <53845.66.243.196.131.1201223678.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <199B81D5-89FF-4EF1-9847-3206408C35D4@jabber.org> Message-ID: <2806B96B-085F-4563-AED5-EA8C95AE9F41@jabber.org> Once we have wikipedia crawled/imported, it's flagged as a whitelist so WP results should show up at the top of any search as the first hit, for close or exact matching keywords. I could see integrating closely with WP's disambig pages, but the bulk of the content should just be a normal search result, no need to special case it is there? Jer On Jan 25, 2008, at 4:59 PM, Mark (Markie) wrote: > hmm what would be peoples thought of using wp content in the main > space, which could either be local copies or dynamically called, > with local overwrite possible, so that we can have minis with "more > here" which then links to pages which have either been specially > adapted written locally or then just falls back onto wp (or should > be just have a kinda "if local exists then use that, if not link > directly to wp" thing) > > thoughts > > mark > > On Jan 25, 2008 10:49 PM, jer wrote: > >> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini > >> articles are > >> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make > >> internal > >> linking more straightforward. > > My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be in- > context, that you only see them in their search result. What reasons > are there to view them outside of that context? > > >> There is also the question of what the > >> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief > >> articles > >> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article. > > If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but when > they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers to the > search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service and not > something that compliments one of the core functions of a search > result, to direct people somewhere. > > >> Another is > >> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term. > > Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the > currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and > "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always > harder with algorithmic approaches. > > What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the > best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support > this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a > problem to support that usage? > > >> Either > >> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the mini > >> namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains of > >> what the > >> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the > search > >> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you are > >> confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front > >> of it > >> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]). > >> > >> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini > >> articles as > >> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main namespace > >> for > >> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions > >> regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to > >> get good > >> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user base > >> would > >> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although I > >> find > >> it enjoyable. > > I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking that it > might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few > sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular article > on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are only viewed, > created, and edited in the search result page directly. > > Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound > reasonable? > > >> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at Forum:Main > >> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy > >> page > >> at search:Main namespace > >> > >> Fred Bauder > > > > Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like: > > > > 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the > "mini" > > content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for > example > > in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would > need to > > be extracted on the fly. Would this work? > > 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation article > > in the > > main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides some > > disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep the > bulk of > > links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way > > around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the > large, > > detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis[ambiguation]" or > > "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/ > disambiguation" > > or "innocence (disambiguation)". > > My guess is that there will always be many more small articles > > than > > large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space will > > make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit" links in > > parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links. Currently, > > they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to refer to the small > > articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the links. > > --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC) > > > > Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and we > > could > > put policy in some other namespace such as policy. > > If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search > result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so > the regular articles are in the regular namespace. > > One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the "Mini:" > namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a database of > mini articles from any wiki on the web. > > Jer > > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Sat Jan 26 00:23:34 2008 From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:23:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace In-Reply-To: <2806B96B-085F-4563-AED5-EA8C95AE9F41@jabber.org> References: <53234.66.243.196.131.1201215438.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <53845.66.243.196.131.1201223678.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> <199B81D5-89FF-4EF1-9847-3206408C35D4@jabber.org> <2806B96B-085F-4563-AED5-EA8C95AE9F41@jabber.org> Message-ID: <61401.66.243.196.131.1201307014.squirrel@webx1.neonova.net> They naturally come up so high on any search result that they are there to easily consult. And if they don't come up, we can just link to them. Fred > Once we have wikipedia crawled/imported, it's flagged as a whitelist > so WP results should show up at the top of any search as the first > hit, for close or exact matching keywords. > > I could see integrating closely with WP's disambig pages, but the bulk > of the content should just be a normal search result, no need to > special case it is there? > > Jer > > On Jan 25, 2008, at 4:59 PM, Mark (Markie) wrote: > >> hmm what would be peoples thought of using wp content in the main >> space, which could either be local copies or dynamically called, >> with local overwrite possible, so that we can have minis with "more >> here" which then links to pages which have either been specially >> adapted written locally or then just falls back onto wp (or should >> be just have a kinda "if local exists then use that, if not link >> directly to wp" thing) >> >> thoughts >> >> mark >> >> On Jan 25, 2008 10:49 PM, jer wrote: >> >> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini >> >> articles are >> >> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make >> internal >> >> linking more straightforward. >> >> My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be in- >> context, that you only see them in their search result. What reasons >> are there to view them outside of that context? >> >> >> There is also the question of what the >> >> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief >> articles >> >> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article. >> >> If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but when >> they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers to the >> search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service and not >> something that compliments one of the core functions of a search >> result, to direct people somewhere. >> >> >> Another is >> >> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term. >> >> Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the >> currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and >> "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always >> harder with algorithmic approaches. >> >> What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the >> best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support >> this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a >> problem to support that usage? >> >> >> Either >> >> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the mini >> namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains of >> what the >> >> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the >> search >> >> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you are >> confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front of >> it >> >> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]). >> >> >> >> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini >> >> articles as >> >> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main namespace >> for >> >> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions >> regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to get >> good >> >> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user base >> would >> >> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although I >> find >> >> it enjoyable. >> >> I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking that it >> might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few >> sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular article >> on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are only viewed, >> created, and edited in the search result page directly. >> >> Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound >> reasonable? >> >> >> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at Forum:Main >> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy >> page >> >> at search:Main namespace >> >> >> >> Fred Bauder >> > >> > Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like: >> > >> > 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the >> "mini" >> > content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for >> example >> > in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would >> need to >> > be extracted on the fly. Would this work? >> > 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation article >> > in the >> > main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides some >> disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep the >> bulk of >> > links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way >> around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the >> large, >> > detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis[ambiguation]" or >> "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/ >> disambiguation" >> > or "innocence (disambiguation)". >> > My guess is that there will always be many more small articles >> > than >> > large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space will >> make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit" links in >> parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links. Currently, >> they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to refer to the small >> articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the links. >> > --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC) >> > >> > Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and we >> could >> > put policy in some other namespace such as policy. >> >> If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search >> result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so the >> regular articles are in the regular namespace. >> >> One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the "Mini:" >> namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a database of >> mini articles from any wiki on the web. >> >> Jer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Search wiki mailing list >> http://search.wikia.com/ >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Search wiki mailing list >> http://search.wikia.com/ >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki From jpm at ldl.de Sat Jan 26 06:17:58 2008 From: jpm at ldl.de (Jean-Pol Martin) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 07:17:58 +0100 Subject: [Search wiki] SearchWiki Digest, Vol 1, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479AD096.8070006@ldl.de> My students are very motivated to write Miniarticles. And this motivation ist important if we want to educate young people creating knowledge together worldwide. But if the miniarticle don't appear in searchengines like google, I'm afraid that they will not work furter on this project. Please, give the miniarticle free for google... Jeanpol searchwiki-request at wikia.com schrieb: > Send SearchWiki mailing list submissions to > searchwiki at wikia.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > searchwiki-request at wikia.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > searchwiki-owner at wikia.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of SearchWiki digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Scale of Search wiki (jer) > 2. Re: Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace (jer) > 3. Re: Mini Articles and Use of the Main Namespace (jer) > 4. Re: Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace (Mark (Markie)) > 5. Re: Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace (jer) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:50:02 -0600 > From: jer > Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki > To: Search Wiki > Message-ID: <59781F84-17EA-4650-87E8-E13A4995A30D at jabber.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > >> ... [A lot of great commentary and feedback] ... >> >> Some day, "search query" wikis such as the Wikia Search one will >> densely cover the fat middle. To me, the question is not if, but >> when, how many, and which ones. The race is on. > > Although it's not present on the footers of the wiki yet (was lost w/ > the new skin apparently), the mini articles are all under an open > content license: http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia_copyrights. > > Jer > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:49:09 -0600 > From: jer > Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace > To: fredbaud at fairpoint.net, Search Wiki > Message-ID: <199B81D5-89FF-4EF1-9847-3206408C35D4 at jabber.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > >>> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini >>> articles are >>> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make >>> internal >>> linking more straightforward. > > My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be in- > context, that you only see them in their search result. What reasons > are there to view them outside of that context? > >>> There is also the question of what the >>> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief >>> articles >>> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article. > > If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but when > they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers to the > search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service and not > something that compliments one of the core functions of a search > result, to direct people somewhere. > >>> Another is >>> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term. > > Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the > currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and > "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always > harder with algorithmic approaches. > > What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the > best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support > this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a > problem to support that usage? > >>> Either >>> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the mini >>> namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains of >>> what the >>> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the search >>> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you are >>> confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front >>> of it >>> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]). >>> >>> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini >>> articles as >>> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main namespace >>> for >>> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions >>> regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to >>> get good >>> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user base >>> would >>> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although I >>> find >>> it enjoyable. > > I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking that it > might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few > sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular article > on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are only viewed, > created, and edited in the search result page directly. > > Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound reasonable? > >>> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at Forum:Main >>> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy >>> page >>> at search:Main namespace >>> >>> Fred Bauder >> Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like: >> >> 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the "mini" >> content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for example >> in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would need to >> be extracted on the fly. Would this work? >> 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation article >> in the >> main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides some >> disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep the bulk of >> links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way >> around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the large, >> detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis[ambiguation]" or >> "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/disambiguation" >> or "innocence (disambiguation)". >> My guess is that there will always be many more small articles >> than >> large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space will >> make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit" links in >> parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links. Currently, >> they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to refer to the small >> articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the links. >> --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC) >> >> Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and we >> could >> put policy in some other namespace such as policy. > > If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search > result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so > the regular articles are in the regular namespace. > > One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the "Mini:" > namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a database of > mini articles from any wiki on the web. > > Jer > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:50:45 -0600 > From: jer > Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Articles and Use of the Main Namespace > To: fredbaud at fairpoint.net, Search Wiki > Message-ID: <496F37F0-515B-4E91-8690-8BA6B6EB7913 at jabber.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > >>> Why don't we keep this discussion on >>> http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Main_Namespace ? Regarding the >>> distinction between "mini" and "maxi" content, I sort of replied >>> there. >> Because I was asked to post the issue here, which make sense as >> conversation about fundamental policies affecting the structure of the >> site needs to be where as many folks as possible can see it and >> participate. > > That was me that asked, I've honestly not had enough attention to > additionally cover/track the forums on the wiki :( > > Jer > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:59:54 +0000 > From: "Mark (Markie)" > Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace > To: "Search Wiki" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > hmm what would be peoples thought of using wp content in the main space, > which could either be local copies or dynamically called, with local > overwrite possible, so that we can have minis with "more here" which then > links to pages which have either been specially adapted written locally or > then just falls back onto wp (or should be just have a kinda "if local > exists then use that, if not link directly to wp" thing) > > thoughts > > mark > > On Jan 25, 2008 10:49 PM, jer wrote: > >>>> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini >>>> articles are >>>> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make >>>> internal >>>> linking more straightforward. >> My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be in- >> context, that you only see them in their search result. What reasons >> are there to view them outside of that context? >> >>>> There is also the question of what the >>>> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief >>>> articles >>>> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article. >> If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but when >> they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers to the >> search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service and not >> something that compliments one of the core functions of a search >> result, to direct people somewhere. >> >>>> Another is >>>> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term. >> Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the >> currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and >> "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always >> harder with algorithmic approaches. >> >> What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the >> best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support >> this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a >> problem to support that usage? >> >>>> Either >>>> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the mini >>>> namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains of >>>> what the >>>> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the search >>>> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you are >>>> confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front >>>> of it >>>> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]). >>>> >>>> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini >>>> articles as >>>> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main namespace >>>> for >>>> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions >>>> regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to >>>> get good >>>> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user base >>>> would >>>> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although I >>>> find >>>> it enjoyable. >> I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking that it >> might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few >> sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular article >> on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are only viewed, >> created, and edited in the search result page directly. >> >> Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound reasonable? >> >>>> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at Forum:Main >>>> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy >>>> page >>>> at search:Main namespace >>>> >>>> Fred Bauder >>> Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like: >>> >>> 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the "mini" >>> content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for example >>> in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would need to >>> be extracted on the fly. Would this work? >>> 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation article >>> in the >>> main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides some >>> disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep the bulk of >>> links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way >>> around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the large, >>> detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis[ambiguation]" or >>> "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/disambiguation" >>> or "innocence (disambiguation)". >>> My guess is that there will always be many more small articles >>> than >>> large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space will >>> make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit" links in >>> parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links. Currently, >>> they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to refer to the small >>> articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the links. >>> --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC) >>> >>> Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and we >>> could >>> put policy in some other namespace such as policy. >> If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search >> result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so >> the regular articles are in the regular namespace. >> >> One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the "Mini:" >> namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a database of >> mini articles from any wiki on the web. >> >> Jer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Search wiki mailing list >> http://search.wikia.com/ >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/20080125/dd1e081e/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:14:45 -0600 > From: jer > Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace > To: Search Wiki > Message-ID: <2806B96B-085F-4563-AED5-EA8C95AE9F41 at jabber.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Once we have wikipedia crawled/imported, it's flagged as a whitelist > so WP results should show up at the top of any search as the first > hit, for close or exact matching keywords. > > I could see integrating closely with WP's disambig pages, but the > bulk of the content should just be a normal search result, no need to > special case it is there? > > Jer > > On Jan 25, 2008, at 4:59 PM, Mark (Markie) wrote: > >> hmm what would be peoples thought of using wp content in the main >> space, which could either be local copies or dynamically called, >> with local overwrite possible, so that we can have minis with "more >> here" which then links to pages which have either been specially >> adapted written locally or then just falls back onto wp (or should >> be just have a kinda "if local exists then use that, if not link >> directly to wp" thing) >> >> thoughts >> >> mark >> >> On Jan 25, 2008 10:49 PM, jer wrote: >>>> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini >>>> articles are >>>> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make >>>> internal >>>> linking more straightforward. >> My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be in- >> context, that you only see them in their search result. What reasons >> are there to view them outside of that context? >> >>>> There is also the question of what the >>>> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief >>>> articles >>>> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article. >> If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but when >> they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers to the >> search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service and not >> something that compliments one of the core functions of a search >> result, to direct people somewhere. >> >>>> Another is >>>> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term. >> Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the >> currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and >> "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always >> harder with algorithmic approaches. >> >> What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the >> best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support >> this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a >> problem to support that usage? >> >>>> Either >>>> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the mini >>>> namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains of >>>> what the >>>> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the >> search >>>> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you are >>>> confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front >>>> of it >>>> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]). >>>> >>>> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini >>>> articles as >>>> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main namespace >>>> for >>>> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions >>>> regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to >>>> get good >>>> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user base >>>> would >>>> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although I >>>> find >>>> it enjoyable. >> I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking that it >> might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few >> sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular article >> on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are only viewed, >> created, and edited in the search result page directly. >> >> Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound >> reasonable? >> >>>> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at Forum:Main >>>> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy >>>> page >>>> at search:Main namespace >>>> >>>> Fred Bauder >>> Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like: >>> >>> 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the >> "mini" >>> content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for >> example >>> in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would >> need to >>> be extracted on the fly. Would this work? >>> 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation article >>> in the >>> main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides some >>> disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep the >> bulk of >>> links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way >>> around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the >> large, >>> detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis[ambiguation]" or >>> "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/ >> disambiguation" >>> or "innocence (disambiguation)". >>> My guess is that there will always be many more small articles >>> than >>> large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space will >>> make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit" links in >>> parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links. Currently, >>> they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to refer to the small >>> articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the links. >>> --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC) >>> >>> Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and we >>> could >>> put policy in some other namespace such as policy. >> If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search >> result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so >> the regular articles are in the regular namespace. >> >> One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the "Mini:" >> namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a database of >> mini articles from any wiki on the web. >> >> Jer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Search wiki mailing list >> http://search.wikia.com/ >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Search wiki mailing list >> http://search.wikia.com/ >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > SearchWiki mailing list > SearchWiki at wikia.com > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki > > > End of SearchWiki Digest, Vol 1, Issue 9 > **************************************** > -- Prof. Dr. Jean-Pol Martin Didaktik der franz?sischen Sprache und Literatur Universit?t, Zi. 240 85071 Eichst?tt Tel. (08421) 93-1536 Fax: (08421) 93-1797 http://projektkompetenz.de/ From jeremie at jabber.org Sat Jan 26 06:55:16 2008 From: jeremie at jabber.org (jer) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 00:55:16 -0600 Subject: [Search wiki] SearchWiki Digest, Vol 1, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: <479AD096.8070006@ldl.de> References: <479AD096.8070006@ldl.de> Message-ID: <3CDACD28-A236-4544-8161-6689323EF378@jabber.org> They definitely already are and will continue to be indexable by Google or any other search, as well as are available under an open content license for more direct re-use needs. Very cool to hear, any ideas on what uses they find motivating/exciting? Jer On Jan 26, 2008, at 12:17 AM, Jean-Pol Martin wrote: > My students are very motivated to write Miniarticles. And this > motivation ist important if we want to educate young people creating > knowledge together worldwide. But if the miniarticle don't appear in > searchengines like google, I'm afraid that they will not work > furter on > this project. Please, give the miniarticle free for google... > > Jeanpol > > searchwiki-request at wikia.com schrieb: >> Send SearchWiki mailing list submissions to >> searchwiki at wikia.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> searchwiki-request at wikia.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> searchwiki-owner at wikia.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of SearchWiki digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Scale of Search wiki (jer) >> 2. Re: Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace (jer) >> 3. Re: Mini Articles and Use of the Main Namespace (jer) >> 4. Re: Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace (Mark (Markie)) >> 5. Re: Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace (jer) >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:50:02 -0600 >> From: jer >> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Scale of Search wiki >> To: Search Wiki >> Message-ID: <59781F84-17EA-4650-87E8-E13A4995A30D at jabber.org> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >>> ... [A lot of great commentary and feedback] ... >>> >>> Some day, "search query" wikis such as the Wikia Search one will >>> densely cover the fat middle. To me, the question is not if, but >>> when, how many, and which ones. The race is on. >> >> Although it's not present on the footers of the wiki yet (was lost w/ >> the new skin apparently), the mini articles are all under an open >> content license: http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia_copyrights. >> >> Jer >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:49:09 -0600 >> From: jer >> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace >> To: fredbaud at fairpoint.net, Search Wiki >> Message-ID: <199B81D5-89FF-4EF1-9847-3206408C35D4 at jabber.org> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >>>> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini >>>> articles are >>>> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make >>>> internal >>>> linking more straightforward. >> >> My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be in- >> context, that you only see them in their search result. What reasons >> are there to view them outside of that context? >> >>>> There is also the question of what the >>>> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief >>>> articles >>>> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article. >> >> If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but when >> they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers to the >> search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service and not >> something that compliments one of the core functions of a search >> result, to direct people somewhere. >> >>>> Another is >>>> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term. >> >> Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the >> currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and >> "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always >> harder with algorithmic approaches. >> >> What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the >> best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support >> this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a >> problem to support that usage? >> >>>> Either >>>> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the mini >>>> namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains of >>>> what the >>>> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the >>>> search >>>> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you are >>>> confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front >>>> of it >>>> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]). >>>> >>>> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini >>>> articles as >>>> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main namespace >>>> for >>>> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions >>>> regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to >>>> get good >>>> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user base >>>> would >>>> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although I >>>> find >>>> it enjoyable. >> >> I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking that it >> might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few >> sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular article >> on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are only viewed, >> created, and edited in the search result page directly. >> >> Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound >> reasonable? >> >>>> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at Forum:Main >>>> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy >>>> page >>>> at search:Main namespace >>>> >>>> Fred Bauder >>> Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like: >>> >>> 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the >>> "mini" >>> content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for >>> example >>> in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would >>> need to >>> be extracted on the fly. Would this work? >>> 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation article >>> in the >>> main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides some >>> disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep the >>> bulk of >>> links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way >>> around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the >>> large, >>> detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis[ambiguation]" or >>> "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/ >>> disambiguation" >>> or "innocence (disambiguation)". >>> My guess is that there will always be many more small articles >>> than >>> large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space will >>> make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit" links in >>> parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links. Currently, >>> they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to refer to the small >>> articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the links. >>> --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC) >>> >>> Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and we >>> could >>> put policy in some other namespace such as policy. >> >> If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search >> result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so >> the regular articles are in the regular namespace. >> >> One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the "Mini:" >> namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a database of >> mini articles from any wiki on the web. >> >> Jer >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:50:45 -0600 >> From: jer >> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Articles and Use of the Main >> Namespace >> To: fredbaud at fairpoint.net, Search Wiki >> Message-ID: <496F37F0-515B-4E91-8690-8BA6B6EB7913 at jabber.org> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >>>> Why don't we keep this discussion on >>>> http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Main_Namespace ? Regarding the >>>> distinction between "mini" and "maxi" content, I sort of replied >>>> there. >>> Because I was asked to post the issue here, which make sense as >>> conversation about fundamental policies affecting the structure >>> of the >>> site needs to be where as many folks as possible can see it and >>> participate. >> >> That was me that asked, I've honestly not had enough attention to >> additionally cover/track the forums on the wiki :( >> >> Jer >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:59:54 +0000 >> From: "Mark (Markie)" >> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace >> To: "Search Wiki" >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> hmm what would be peoples thought of using wp content in the main >> space, >> which could either be local copies or dynamically called, with local >> overwrite possible, so that we can have minis with "more here" >> which then >> links to pages which have either been specially adapted written >> locally or >> then just falls back onto wp (or should be just have a kinda "if >> local >> exists then use that, if not link directly to wp" thing) >> >> thoughts >> >> mark >> >> On Jan 25, 2008 10:49 PM, jer wrote: >> >>>>> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini >>>>> articles are >>>>> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make >>>>> internal >>>>> linking more straightforward. >>> My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be in- >>> context, that you only see them in their search result. What >>> reasons >>> are there to view them outside of that context? >>> >>>>> There is also the question of what the >>>>> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief >>>>> articles >>>>> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article. >>> If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but >>> when >>> they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers to the >>> search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service and not >>> something that compliments one of the core functions of a search >>> result, to direct people somewhere. >>> >>>>> Another is >>>>> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term. >>> Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the >>> currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and >>> "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always >>> harder with algorithmic approaches. >>> >>> What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the >>> best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support >>> this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a >>> problem to support that usage? >>> >>>>> Either >>>>> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the mini >>>>> namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains of >>>>> what the >>>>> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the >>>>> search >>>>> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you >>>>> are >>>>> confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front >>>>> of it >>>>> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]). >>>>> >>>>> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini >>>>> articles as >>>>> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main namespace >>>>> for >>>>> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions >>>>> regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to >>>>> get good >>>>> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user base >>>>> would >>>>> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although I >>>>> find >>>>> it enjoyable. >>> I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking >>> that it >>> might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few >>> sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular article >>> on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are only viewed, >>> created, and edited in the search result page directly. >>> >>> Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound >>> reasonable? >>> >>>>> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at >>>>> Forum:Main >>>>> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy >>>>> page >>>>> at search:Main namespace >>>>> >>>>> Fred Bauder >>>> Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like: >>>> >>>> 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the >>>> "mini" >>>> content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for >>>> example >>>> in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would >>>> need to >>>> be extracted on the fly. Would this work? >>>> 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation article >>>> in the >>>> main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides some >>>> disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep the >>>> bulk of >>>> links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way >>>> around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the >>>> large, >>>> detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis >>>> [ambiguation]" or >>>> "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/ >>>> disambiguation" >>>> or "innocence (disambiguation)". >>>> My guess is that there will always be many more small articles >>>> than >>>> large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space will >>>> make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit" links in >>>> parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links. Currently, >>>> they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to refer to the >>>> small >>>> articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the links. >>>> --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC) >>>> >>>> Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and we >>>> could >>>> put policy in some other namespace such as policy. >>> If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search >>> result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so >>> the regular articles are in the regular namespace. >>> >>> One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the "Mini:" >>> namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a database of >>> mini articles from any wiki on the web. >>> >>> Jer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Search wiki mailing list >>> http://search.wikia.com/ >>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: http://lists.wikia.com/pipermail/searchwiki/attachments/ >> 20080125/dd1e081e/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:14:45 -0600 >> From: jer >> Subject: Re: [Search wiki] Mini Aricles and Use of the Main Namespace >> To: Search Wiki >> Message-ID: <2806B96B-085F-4563-AED5-EA8C95AE9F41 at jabber.org> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> Once we have wikipedia crawled/imported, it's flagged as a whitelist >> so WP results should show up at the top of any search as the first >> hit, for close or exact matching keywords. >> >> I could see integrating closely with WP's disambig pages, but the >> bulk of the content should just be a normal search result, no need to >> special case it is there? >> >> Jer >> >> On Jan 25, 2008, at 4:59 PM, Mark (Markie) wrote: >> >>> hmm what would be peoples thought of using wp content in the main >>> space, which could either be local copies or dynamically called, >>> with local overwrite possible, so that we can have minis with "more >>> here" which then links to pages which have either been specially >>> adapted written locally or then just falls back onto wp (or should >>> be just have a kinda "if local exists then use that, if not link >>> directly to wp" thing) >>> >>> thoughts >>> >>> mark >>> >>> On Jan 25, 2008 10:49 PM, jer wrote: >>>>> As has been noted, links within mini articles to other mini >>>>> articles are >>>>> awkward. Using the main namespace for mini articles would make >>>>> internal >>>>> linking more straightforward. >>> My inclination is to make almost all views of a mini article be in- >>> context, that you only see them in their search result. What >>> reasons >>> are there to view them outside of that context? >>> >>>>> There is also the question of what the >>>>> content of mini articles ought to be. One possibility is brief >>>>> articles >>>>> about the word or term, a sort of mini Wikipedia article. >>> If these are short as in a sentence or two I could see this, but >>> when >>> they grow to be a body of "real" content, the actual answers to the >>> search term, I worry that it's becoming an answer service and not >>> something that compliments one of the core functions of a search >>> result, to direct people somewhere. >>> >>>>> Another is >>>>> adding significant material about disambiguation of the term. >>> Disambig, as well as poorly formed queries, misspellings (that the >>> currently non-existant did-you-mean feature might not cover), and >>> "hot" or fresh searches (like news, memes, so on) that are always >>> harder with algorithmic approaches. >>> >>> What about the usage of mini articles for straight up "this is the >>> best link and isn't in the search result!" ? Shouldn't we support >>> this and use that data to index and improve the rankings? Is it a >>> problem to support that usage? >>> >>>>> Either >>>>> alternative could occur in the mini or main namespace. If the mini >>>>> namespace is used in one of those ways, the question remains of >>>>> what the >>>>> main namespace is is used for. I have tentatively assumed the >>> search >>>>> namespace is for policy, the help namespace is for help. If you >>>>> are >>>>> confused, the main namespace is an article with nothing in front >>>>> of it >>>>> ([[Apple]] rather than [[Mini:Apple]]). >>>>> >>>>> As an alternative, I suggest that we continue with the mini >>>>> articles as >>>>> a brief introduction to the subject and reserve the main namespace >>>>> for >>>>> an intensive disambiguation of its subject, including suggestions >>>>> regarding how to use appropriate keywords to refine searches to >>>>> get good >>>>> results for various possibilities. Whether our projected user base >>>>> would >>>>> actively use and develop such pages remains to be seen, although I >>>>> find >>>>> it enjoyable. >>> I'm starting to agree with this line of thought, and thinking >>> that it >>> might be good if Mini: is limited to a very small size, few >>> sentences, and can add a "see more" which links to a regular article >>> on the topic. We can set it up so that the Mini's are only viewed, >>> created, and edited in the search result page directly. >>> >>> Am I at odds with current thoughts on this, or does it sound >>> reasonable? >>> >>>>> There are some discussions at Forum:Mini articles and at >>>>> Forum:Main >>>>> Namespace I have been so bold as to provisionally advance a policy >>>>> page >>>>> at search:Main namespace >>>>> >>>>> Fred Bauder >>>> Here's a suggested treatment I kind of like: >>>> >>>> 1. As an alternative to maintaining separate articles, the >>> "mini" >>>> content could be maintained as a part of a larger article, for >>> example >>>> in the form of a formal "Summary" section. That section would >>> need to >>>> be extracted on the fly. Would this work? >>>> 2. You have put the big, "encyclopedic" disambiguation article >>>> in the >>>> main space, and the "dictionary" article (which also provides some >>>> disambiguation, which is good) in the Mini space. To keep the >>> bulk of >>>> links and articles simple, I would prefer to do it the other way >>>> around: Put the small, "mini" article in the main space and the >>> large, >>>> detailed one in a different namespace, such as "dis >>>> [ambiguation]" or >>>> "extended". Or give it an extension, as in "innocence/ >>> disambiguation" >>>> or "innocence (disambiguation)". >>>> My guess is that there will always be many more small articles >>>> than >>>> large ones. Keeping the bulk of the articles in the main space will >>>> make linking simpler. Notice all those "create" and "edit" links in >>>> parentheses behind the "search query" (keyword?) links. Currently, >>>> they all point to Mini. Most links will intend to refer to the >>>> small >>>> articles. The namespace prefix would vanish, simplifying the links. >>>> --RainerBlome 00:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC) >>>> >>>> Perhaps the extended articles could use the Search namespace and we >>>> could >>>> put policy in some other namespace such as policy. >>> If interacting with Mini: is abstracted/hidden through the search >>> result page, I think it would be best to keep it the way it is, so >>> the regular articles are in the regular namespace. >>> >>> One *very* long term thinking is that others could mimic the "Mini:" >>> namespace on their own wiki's, and a crawler can build a database of >>> mini articles from any wiki on the web. >>> >>> Jer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Search wiki mailing list >>> http://search.wikia.com/ >>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Search wiki mailing list >>> http://search.wikia.com/ >>> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SearchWiki mailing list >> SearchWiki at wikia.com >> http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki >> >> >> End of SearchWiki Digest, Vol 1, Issue 9 >> **************************************** >> > > -- > Prof. Dr. Jean-Pol Martin > Didaktik der franz?sischen > Sprache und Literatur > Universit?t, Zi. 240 > 85071 Eichst?tt > Tel. (08421) 93-1536 > Fax: (08421) 93-1797 > http://projektkompetenz.de/ > _______________________________________________ > Search wiki mailing list > http://search.wikia.com/ > http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/searchwiki